Working in India
Originally Posted by scroggs
- it's not easy to tell your countrymen that some of their highest-paying jobs are going to foreigners who otherwise have no right of residence or employment!
Scroggs
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And your point is what exactly? The USA and the EU are two of the most protected industrial economies in the world. We apply stringent restrictions on who can work and live in our countries. Other countries are entitled to do the same. Fortunately many don't, or those British, European and American pilots that work in many, many countries around the world would all have to go home.
Scroggs
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Scoggs has it spot on. There is a growing middle class in India, and within the next 5-10 years, it is going to feed strong growth in Indian aviation. The vast middle classes are highly educated and will work for fraction of the cost of a similarly educated individual in the developed western world. However, costs are rising and salaries increasing. My company gives salary increases to our Indian employees at not less than 20% per year. This is unsustainable.
If the bubble does burst, I think you'll find more Indian pilots moving to the traditional stamping grounds of expat pilots in the Middle East and Asia-Pacific. Inevitably, some will come to Europe too. Even if the bubble doesn't burst, young f/o' will quickly work out there's better money to be made at SIA & EK. All in all, things should get even tougher for wannabes...
If the bubble does burst, I think you'll find more Indian pilots moving to the traditional stamping grounds of expat pilots in the Middle East and Asia-Pacific. Inevitably, some will come to Europe too. Even if the bubble doesn't burst, young f/o' will quickly work out there's better money to be made at SIA & EK. All in all, things should get even tougher for wannabes...
Originally Posted by scroggs
And your point is what exactly?
Scroggs
Scroggs
...yet countries continue to do what they have to do to keep the airplanes moving inspite of how hard it is to give away good jobs to "outsiders"; that all.
If India doesn't have to hire expat FOs, so be it. I would guess that expats have been considered a necessary evil in the eyes of locals as long as countries have been doing things which required people their own country couldn't produce fast enough.
If India can get by entirely own their own people, more power to them. But, ultimately I'd place my bets on the motivation of the Almighty Dollar having the final word. When/if India ( or any other country ) couldn't get the job done with local talent, I rather doubt hurt feelings would count for much.
Not picking a fight...just thinking out loud. Just an interesting subject...
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The aviation industry in India is tiny. I mean by that that, compared to the population, it is almost non-existent. There are probably more airliners in Luxembourg than there are in India! The infrastructure just isn't there to support that rapid an expansion that they'll run out of people. With a population four times that of the USA, believe me they have plenty of people! Only a very few need to be qualified to fly aeroplanes, and it looks likely that they can generate the majority of those themselves - and they can send potential pilots to schools in other countries, who will be only too willing to provide the training India requires.
I don't think there will ever be a large market for expat pilots in India.
Scroggs
I don't think there will ever be a large market for expat pilots in India.
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I think the point that Scroggs, and indeed I, has tried to make is that unless one is an Indian national one hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of getting a RHS job in India.
Perhaps Scroggs may back me up on this but if the subject matter is to turn to an Indian flight safety issue then perhaps it belongs in a different forum to this one.
There is a distinct smell of sour grapes in the air!
Perhaps Scroggs may back me up on this but if the subject matter is to turn to an Indian flight safety issue then perhaps it belongs in a different forum to this one.
There is a distinct smell of sour grapes in the air!
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RHS will forever remain closed to expats=sour grapes or Indian pickles.
There are close to 500 Indian kids right now in USA & Aus comepleting their CPLs, both the countires have relaxed the visa rules looking at the huge potencial for local FTOs.
Scroggs, you seem to have put a lot of research into this; you have more info on hand than most CEOs running the airlines in India...
Phileas Fogg, agree Flt safety will an issue as low time FO and low time Capts will be flying in some kick azz Indian monsoon in the next few mths, most new airlines this will be real test of their safety detps.
bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...you will be shocked...
There are close to 500 Indian kids right now in USA & Aus comepleting their CPLs, both the countires have relaxed the visa rules looking at the huge potencial for local FTOs.
Scroggs, you seem to have put a lot of research into this; you have more info on hand than most CEOs running the airlines in India...
Phileas Fogg, agree Flt safety will an issue as low time FO and low time Capts will be flying in some kick azz Indian monsoon in the next few mths, most new airlines this will be real test of their safety detps.
bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...you will be shocked...
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There are rules preventing less than 500 hours total on type experience in the cockpit.
New abinitio F/Os have to go thru approx 50 sectors LOFT before release.
Some on this thread think they "invented the wheel" and the indian aviators were born yesterday!
Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.
Simple advice - take it or leave it.....
New abinitio F/Os have to go thru approx 50 sectors LOFT before release.
Some on this thread think they "invented the wheel" and the indian aviators were born yesterday!
Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.
Simple advice - take it or leave it.....
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Originally Posted by Left Wing
Scroggs, you seem to have put a lot of research into this; you have more info on hand than most CEOs running the airlines in India...
It is painfully obvious sometimes that some wannabes only ever look within the Wannabes section of Pprune for their aviation information, and ignore the vast amount of knowledge available elsewhere in this site - not to mention other sources. Only yesterday within this forum, one of your number commented that he failed an interview because his knowledge of the industry (and even his potential employer) was inadequate. There is no excuse for this; information is very easy to come by. If you are adequately informed you will find it much easier to make sensible judgements of where to concentrate your energies when looking for a job - and to have the knowledge to impress your target employers.
I don't know
. You can take the horse to water....
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Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.
well said ! this goes for any carrier if you want to work as an expat in some one else's country.
scoggs, what a fresh approach..and then there are some guys to who come to India on ID tickets without a visa and claim their UK/USA citizenship give them the right to do so....
in short use the internet for research and not for free porn !
well said ! this goes for any carrier if you want to work as an expat in some one else's country.
scoggs, what a fresh approach..and then there are some guys to who come to India on ID tickets without a visa and claim their UK/USA citizenship give them the right to do so....
in short use the internet for research and not for free porn !
Originally Posted by Left Wing
.
bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...ok:
bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...ok:
For the entire 35 years I spent in domestic US airline flying, there was talk about the looming "pilot shortage" here; what a joke !!
I just think it's interesting to see how countries like China and India will handle what appears to be a legitimate need for more pilots than they have available to support their proposed operations. They may not be able to produce "experienced" pilots as fast as they need them not matter how many candidates they send to flight schools.
It'll be fun to watch.
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It's quite laughable the many international airline Captains and wannabee international airline pilots/Captains haven't got a clue regarding immigration issues and what happens when they have a passenger immigration issue on board?
So many Americans, let's say, who flew in/out of Heathrow for Delta for 15 years believe they have EU rights because, in their opinion, they have already worked in the EU and likewise so many nationalities, without so much as a type rating nor 500 hours on type, apply for jobs in such countries as India. Don't they realise that the airline has to justify their qualification(s) on type to receive their work visa and licence validation etc. for that particular position and if one ain't got the qualification(s) then one ain't going to get the work permit, the validation nor the job!
So many Americans, let's say, who flew in/out of Heathrow for Delta for 15 years believe they have EU rights because, in their opinion, they have already worked in the EU and likewise so many nationalities, without so much as a type rating nor 500 hours on type, apply for jobs in such countries as India. Don't they realise that the airline has to justify their qualification(s) on type to receive their work visa and licence validation etc. for that particular position and if one ain't got the qualification(s) then one ain't going to get the work permit, the validation nor the job!
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China's problem is more pressing than India's. China has quite a well-developed and sophisticated internal airline system with all the associated infrastructure. The country is embracing capitalism rapidly (it was always a trade-based society, even in Communist years), and its economy is expanding at a tremendous rate. With several very large commercial centres up and down the Eastern and Southern coasts of the country, there is already a pent-up demand for air travel - it needs little extra encouragement. China has decided to order a lot of aircraft for delivery in the near future, and it can't crew them from its own resources as things stand. China also has a reasonably well-developed relationship with expatriate expertise in a number of fields, and is quite comfortable with the use of expat pilots. Of course, the lack of a democratic government and thus any risk to politicians in upsetting the populace may play a part here..!
The nature of Chinese and Indian politics and commerce are quite different, and the actions of one can't be easily read across to the other. China will accept expat pilots - at least for the forseeable future - India will not.
Scroggs
The nature of Chinese and Indian politics and commerce are quite different, and the actions of one can't be easily read across to the other. China will accept expat pilots - at least for the forseeable future - India will not.
Scroggs
Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
So many Americans, let's say, who flew in/out of Heathrow for Delta for 15 years believe they have EU rights because, in their opinion, they have already worked in the EU
And as for the "immigration" issues, if people aren't familiar with them it's because they didn't NEED to be familiar with them. But, circumstances change.
When they have a need, I guess they'll learn them....just like YOU did when you found the need.
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I started this thread to enquire as to if it was viable for me to pursue this Kingfisher vibe, the concensus seems to be no. Fair enough.
I'd also add that any pilot doing training in another part of the world (ie. Me UK citizen - training in the US) has probably delt with embassies and also looked into what their options are to stay and earn in that country unless they have a deep rooted hatred for that country (here its generally the Italians who can't wait to get back to Europe).
How do find out? . . . as Bafanguy correctly pointed out we look into when we stumble across it in our day to day lives. How much for a kilo of Mongolian Yaks Cheese? I dunno, but if I was going to open a pizza restaurant in downtown Ulaan Bator then you can bet your little behind I'd be up to speed.
Surely the whole point of PPRuNe is that the uneducated masses are enlightened by the few in the know already and they aren't castigated for doing so.
As for questioning Scroggs, to be honest the guy reads almost every post on here, over the past few years I bet he's seen every rumour/opportunity/fact/figure/lie and gleened the relevant info (despite all the bollocks and threads decending into name calling and personal vendettas around the 6 post mark). If he isn't in a position to say what HE thinks based on that, then who the hell is!
What I find laughable is how many people forget this and have a go.
By no means is this a suck up session to a moderator, I don't always agree with everything he says. However if I was on Who Wants to be a Millionaire? and Chris Tarrant asked 'Whats the chances of getting a F/O job in India?' I know who I'd use as my 'phone a friend'.
I'd also add that any pilot doing training in another part of the world (ie. Me UK citizen - training in the US) has probably delt with embassies and also looked into what their options are to stay and earn in that country unless they have a deep rooted hatred for that country (here its generally the Italians who can't wait to get back to Europe).
How do find out? . . . as Bafanguy correctly pointed out we look into when we stumble across it in our day to day lives. How much for a kilo of Mongolian Yaks Cheese? I dunno, but if I was going to open a pizza restaurant in downtown Ulaan Bator then you can bet your little behind I'd be up to speed.
Surely the whole point of PPRuNe is that the uneducated masses are enlightened by the few in the know already and they aren't castigated for doing so.
As for questioning Scroggs, to be honest the guy reads almost every post on here, over the past few years I bet he's seen every rumour/opportunity/fact/figure/lie and gleened the relevant info (despite all the bollocks and threads decending into name calling and personal vendettas around the 6 post mark). If he isn't in a position to say what HE thinks based on that, then who the hell is!
What I find laughable is how many people forget this and have a go.
By no means is this a suck up session to a moderator, I don't always agree with everything he says. However if I was on Who Wants to be a Millionaire? and Chris Tarrant asked 'Whats the chances of getting a F/O job in India?' I know who I'd use as my 'phone a friend'.
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Originally Posted by bafanguy
A patently absurd statement....
And as for the "immigration" issues, if people aren't familiar with them it's because they didn't NEED to be familiar with them. But, circumstances change.
When they have a need, I guess they'll learn them....just like YOU did when you found the need.
And as for the "immigration" issues, if people aren't familiar with them it's because they didn't NEED to be familiar with them. But, circumstances change.
When they have a need, I guess they'll learn them....just like YOU did when you found the need.
Actions speak louder than words as they say!
Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
Then why do I receive umpteen FAA/N. American applications weekly, if not daily, for JAR licensed EU positions?
Actions speak louder than words as they say!
Actions speak louder than words as they say!
However, these applications are by no means an indication of an attitude of entitlement to the job or the right work work in your country on the part of the applicants.
The incredible absurdity of your original statement regarding American pilots considering flying into an English airport as having "...UE rights..." stands firm on its own lack of merit.
Just throw away those applications that don't fit your requirements.
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Bafanguy,
Written applications were/are just part of it, once EST reaches 0900 the phone starts ringing, one asks specific questions as to does one have a JAR license to which a regular reply will be 'sure, I've got an ATPL' and when one asks regarding EU rights a regular answer will be regarding Delta Airlines for 15 years or similar.
I don't imagine these things, I talk to these people (I was about to call them something else) on a daily or weekly basis, many haven't got a clue regarding EU rights and that is fact.
Should you continue to disbelieve me then by all means post an EU/JAR job ad on climbto350.com and ask that they specify how they have EU rights when applying, I get the impression that you'll receive one hell of a shock.
P.S. You'll have to refer to it as European Union in your ad though because many don't understand what EU means!
Written applications were/are just part of it, once EST reaches 0900 the phone starts ringing, one asks specific questions as to does one have a JAR license to which a regular reply will be 'sure, I've got an ATPL' and when one asks regarding EU rights a regular answer will be regarding Delta Airlines for 15 years or similar.
I don't imagine these things, I talk to these people (I was about to call them something else) on a daily or weekly basis, many haven't got a clue regarding EU rights and that is fact.
Should you continue to disbelieve me then by all means post an EU/JAR job ad on climbto350.com and ask that they specify how they have EU rights when applying, I get the impression that you'll receive one hell of a shock.
P.S. You'll have to refer to it as European Union in your ad though because many don't understand what EU means!