FO's paying to fly?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PicMas: Yes you are bitter, it's a pity. I could have ended up like you.. instead I decided to take the gamble (take out a loan).. of course it's far more difficult if you have a mortage and a family.. I have neither, and I KNOW if I chose to have both then I couldn't have done what I did, if you've already got both tough luck.. quit moaning you've got a house and a family!
As you are so galantly helping the "wannabees", I might ask you for a helping hand. Where is my house located?? Don't recall having one of those...
Sell-outs like yourself really ought to be quiet on these forums, don't justify your unbecoming choices by repeating it over and over. There is no way around the fact that if you buy T/R and time you are in fact a sell-out.
You wanna sell out?? Fine, just be quiet about it. There is nothing glorious about buying a job.
In the company i work for, me (and a lot of other guys) will apply CRM(with individuals like you) only to the point were a safe flight is gauranteed, other than that you would be on your own and you can stick that TR in your
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Aroundandabout
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flash8,
I think it would be fair to say that you've got things messed up somewhat! 
A prostitute makes money by providing a "service", which logically would mean that in the business of buying line-training, the "prostitute" would have to be the airline handing out the "service"! Right?!
The middle-man ( be it Eaglejet or Bond, or whatever their names may be) connecting the student and the airline (prostitute) in order to get some business going, would then have to be the pimp. Right?
That leaves the student (the buyer of "services", the customer), and I don't know what the UK name for that is.
In Sweden we call them "torskar". Simply because they get hooked!
"Torsk" is a fish and I think that the english word would be "cod" or "haddock". Not sure though..... (please don't take my licences away if, God forbid, I've been mistaken!)
PicMas,
You need to realize that there is no "waiting line" for the job. Never has been. Hence, there can be no "elbowing"!
-"The purchasing of line time effectively makes you a prostitute (harsh words but well deserved) and the airline a customer and the "training" organisation a pimp."
A prostitute makes money by providing a "service", which logically would mean that in the business of buying line-training, the "prostitute" would have to be the airline handing out the "service"! Right?!
The middle-man ( be it Eaglejet or Bond, or whatever their names may be) connecting the student and the airline (prostitute) in order to get some business going, would then have to be the pimp. Right?
That leaves the student (the buyer of "services", the customer), and I don't know what the UK name for that is.
In Sweden we call them "torskar". Simply because they get hooked!
"Torsk" is a fish and I think that the english word would be "cod" or "haddock". Not sure though..... (please don't take my licences away if, God forbid, I've been mistaken!)
PicMas,
You need to realize that there is no "waiting line" for the job. Never has been. Hence, there can be no "elbowing"!
Last edited by An2; 22nd Dec 2005 at 14:16.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: europe
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont know about you, but girls pay me to sleep with them, any girls...
they are under a "pay to work" contract.
after 300 beds, they can move of streets, and pay another 200beds sessions just to get the new "crack crack" experience!!!
just like pilots!
they are under a "pay to work" contract.
after 300 beds, they can move of streets, and pay another 200beds sessions just to get the new "crack crack" experience!!!
just like pilots!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picmas,
As you said there is nothing glorious about buying a job: but what is the most important?? Glory or the job?
For each job you have to be qualified and you should understand that having a Type Rating on the aircraft that the airline uses is a minimum and logical point. It is not because of you pay 50000$ for a license that an airline is supposed to pay your TR. The purpose of a company is to make profit and it is a waist of time and money to send you for 1 month type rating course expect if they are desparate to find a qualified pilot (which is not the situation in 2005). In that case they might give you the PRIVILEDGE to pay for your rating.
TRTOs now offer line training included in the TR price which is a great experience as you fly for 100 hours under the supervision of a training Captain and it should be considered as a training and not a pay to work experience.
As you said there is nothing glorious about buying a job: but what is the most important?? Glory or the job?
For each job you have to be qualified and you should understand that having a Type Rating on the aircraft that the airline uses is a minimum and logical point. It is not because of you pay 50000$ for a license that an airline is supposed to pay your TR. The purpose of a company is to make profit and it is a waist of time and money to send you for 1 month type rating course expect if they are desparate to find a qualified pilot (which is not the situation in 2005). In that case they might give you the PRIVILEDGE to pay for your rating.
TRTOs now offer line training included in the TR price which is a great experience as you fly for 100 hours under the supervision of a training Captain and it should be considered as a training and not a pay to work experience.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
of course it's a pay to work experience - you are in fact paying to work.
As for what is more important - glory or job. That would be the JOB, provided you are offered a real job. Not the case when you bring a thick wallet to work and fork out for a "PRIVILEDGE".
If I wanted to pay to fly jet, I would definitely chose Migs-Over-Moscow.... they give you a t-shirt
As for what is more important - glory or job. That would be the JOB, provided you are offered a real job. Not the case when you bring a thick wallet to work and fork out for a "PRIVILEDGE".
If I wanted to pay to fly jet, I would definitely chose Migs-Over-Moscow.... they give you a t-shirt
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Elysion
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It stinks. Sure it only supplies a demand but so does the dealer down round the corner.
It is dragging down the industry and everyone involved in this is guilty. You have forfeited your right to ever complain about anything in this industry ever again.
It stinks and so do you.
It is dragging down the industry and everyone involved in this is guilty. You have forfeited your right to ever complain about anything in this industry ever again.
It stinks and so do you.
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Age: 46
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excuse my ignorance but however many years ago when the amount of people paying for their own training from 0 to CPL ME/IR opposed to getting an employer or potential employer to do so increased, did already qualified/working pilots bemoan it as the end of an era like what is going on now with TR chatter?
Maybe someone with who was around may like to add something?
Maybe its wasn't so highlighted as it would have taken place in a time before the internet gave us the opportunity to voice our opinions and discuss our particular industry in an open forum.
Like it or not the industry is changing, harking back to the 80's/early 90's good times will not solve anything, does anyone think anyone hired now will get the salary and benefits offered to those back in the day?
What I've found is to do extensive research, do the sums and remove emotion from the equasion, that way you can make the right decision for you.
Maybe someone with who was around may like to add something?
Maybe its wasn't so highlighted as it would have taken place in a time before the internet gave us the opportunity to voice our opinions and discuss our particular industry in an open forum.
Like it or not the industry is changing, harking back to the 80's/early 90's good times will not solve anything, does anyone think anyone hired now will get the salary and benefits offered to those back in the day?
What I've found is to do extensive research, do the sums and remove emotion from the equasion, that way you can make the right decision for you.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: @work
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I personally don't understand is where the line is supposed to be drawn. For the loud voices opposed to all the SSTR schemes out there, did you not pay for your MCC course yourselves? What is there to say that this requirement should not be funded by the employer as well? In fact, on that line of thought why shouldn't the airline be paying for ALL of your training? I think the industry as a whole is progressing towards a situation where all crew are selected from thousands of applicants, handpicked for the airline and trained in-house to their standards. It's being done today, and it will continue to spread at least that's my guess. Airlines don't want the hassle of evaluating people with such varying training backgrounds and experiences, they want a predictable polished product young enough to give them a good number of years of service.
I may be crazy, but I just fail to see the distinction here. Why is is worse for a guy to pay for his rating to make himself attractive on the market than it is to pay for your own Certificate/MCC?
You know, back in the day day, all airline pilots where basically ex-military which I'm guessing would rule out most of you on here. Personally I'm happy to be living in a day and age where it's possible at all for me to become an airline pilot and thrilled that my personal circumstances coincide with my dream.
Just my thoughts here, I'm not happy about the state of the european industry either but the whole burn-the-sstr-guys-at-the-stake thing is wrong to me.
What I will say as far as money goes is that the door swings the other way as well, regarding where to draw the line. I don't think it's right to work for next to nothing or worse, to pay to work once you're hired. If you're a FO then you should get the FO salary no question about it because that's what you are.
That's is for me... and cheer us dudes, it's christmas!
I may be crazy, but I just fail to see the distinction here. Why is is worse for a guy to pay for his rating to make himself attractive on the market than it is to pay for your own Certificate/MCC?
You know, back in the day day, all airline pilots where basically ex-military which I'm guessing would rule out most of you on here. Personally I'm happy to be living in a day and age where it's possible at all for me to become an airline pilot and thrilled that my personal circumstances coincide with my dream.
Just my thoughts here, I'm not happy about the state of the european industry either but the whole burn-the-sstr-guys-at-the-stake thing is wrong to me.
What I will say as far as money goes is that the door swings the other way as well, regarding where to draw the line. I don't think it's right to work for next to nothing or worse, to pay to work once you're hired. If you're a FO then you should get the FO salary no question about it because that's what you are.
That's is for me... and cheer us dudes, it's christmas!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747 Downwind, yeah i think we are on the same wavelength...
From my experiance getting a first job was pretty easy, easier than i thought. I will not provide details as i think there are enuf posts here about where to go. I did my homework and picked my location, packed my bags and old life up. I worked a few bum jobs for a month or so whilest living in the b'packers. Then when the season started the operater started hireing, most of the guys that hung around during the season got hired, by mid season we were out of pilots and had to advertise as the rest of us ended pulling 90-100hrs/month.
This is the most depressing things....... Out of my class of 20 that graduated at my flying school only 2 left the roost for a job (and we both got work). The rest hung around and tried to get a easy gig in the airlines/RPT as their parents had very deep pockets, sinking more and more money into the training organisation. I have a beef with the training organisations selling them BS hopes and dreams of that there was a job just around the corner. Where are they now, still hanging around waiting for work to find them (maybe 1 got a git on a RPT). These guys are living at home, mum/dad payed for all there training and they would happily work from free/buy a TR and winge that they could not get work.... sooo sad
My advise to all .....
If you want a job you have to go to where the work is, you dont see many icecream saleman at the north pole.
Duff Shark
From my experiance getting a first job was pretty easy, easier than i thought. I will not provide details as i think there are enuf posts here about where to go. I did my homework and picked my location, packed my bags and old life up. I worked a few bum jobs for a month or so whilest living in the b'packers. Then when the season started the operater started hireing, most of the guys that hung around during the season got hired, by mid season we were out of pilots and had to advertise as the rest of us ended pulling 90-100hrs/month.
This is the most depressing things....... Out of my class of 20 that graduated at my flying school only 2 left the roost for a job (and we both got work). The rest hung around and tried to get a easy gig in the airlines/RPT as their parents had very deep pockets, sinking more and more money into the training organisation. I have a beef with the training organisations selling them BS hopes and dreams of that there was a job just around the corner. Where are they now, still hanging around waiting for work to find them (maybe 1 got a git on a RPT). These guys are living at home, mum/dad payed for all there training and they would happily work from free/buy a TR and winge that they could not get work.... sooo sad
My advise to all .....
If you want a job you have to go to where the work is, you dont see many icecream saleman at the north pole.
Duff Shark
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Merritt Island
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, who remembers the original question?:
"I'm guessing that most of the airlines asking for FO's to pay for line flying are probably based in the far east. Does anybody have details on whose doing this and where?"
This post has turned into yet another slanging match from the self-opinionated and the ill-informed. Where on earth is the advice that was originally asked for? If you don't know then DON"T POST a response. I was looking for advice as are many people and I'm sure a lot of us are fed up with all the hot air!
"I'm guessing that most of the airlines asking for FO's to pay for line flying are probably based in the far east. Does anybody have details on whose doing this and where?"
This post has turned into yet another slanging match from the self-opinionated and the ill-informed. Where on earth is the advice that was originally asked for? If you don't know then DON"T POST a response. I was looking for advice as are many people and I'm sure a lot of us are fed up with all the hot air!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where on earth is the advice that was originally asked for?
When inadequate wanna-be pilots buy ratings and/or jobs, there is a strong possibility that even simple questions like "who will take my money?" or "how do I pay to work?" are simply impossible to answer. If you had the mental capacity to cope with the business in a dignified manner this wouldn't be an issue.
When you post on a BB like this (IMHO) you are not guaranteed anything but (un)willingness to share information/ rumours.
I could mention the first three companies slaving out wanna-be's with thick wallets in SE Asia.
I choose to keep this information to myself, as do other users in the know obviously. Unfair? Illinformed? self-opinionated? Possibly, but really - who is illinformed? who asked a loaded question on a sensible issue to begin with??
"airlines now require T/R and 500hrs" if you believe that and fork out, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Merritt Island
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PICMAS - wow, what an aggressive response but then after reading through your posts on this subject I can see why. You are way too bitter about giving up flying for a career and jealous of those who, unlike you, won't give up. Of course there are rich kids living off daddy's wallet. A few years back I met a young Virgin FO and what a pr . . k he was. My appreciation still goes out to the lady captain who told him what she thought of daddy's money!
You choose to "keep information to yourself" rather than offer the advice which was asked for - not expected. I guess your refusal is based on childrens playground antics? If I can't play then I'm not giving back the ball. Now what kind of dignified mental capacity does that display?
Scroggs - is it time to close this topic? (please!)
You choose to "keep information to yourself" rather than offer the advice which was asked for - not expected. I guess your refusal is based on childrens playground antics? If I can't play then I'm not giving back the ball. Now what kind of dignified mental capacity does that display?
Scroggs - is it time to close this topic? (please!)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Gosh, the level of personal attack on here is actually quite scary..(I wonder how brave many of you would be..if it were not an anonomous forum 
)
Just for the record..once again, the idea of the SSTR is repugnant to me.
I believe it cheapens our profession, reduces the selection process in many cases to those who can afford/cant afford it, and worst of all it artificially creates a glass ceiling to those who have done the "hard-yards" in air taxis and T/Props.
Be that as it may, there is a market for it and legitimate operators are making money from desperate/inexperienced candidates.
Until such time as airlines run out of suitable applicants who can afford a Type on their license, this situation will continue. After all....when you attend oxford aviation on an intergrated course....you expect to walk onto an A320/B737 dont you...
)Just for the record..once again, the idea of the SSTR is repugnant to me.
I believe it cheapens our profession, reduces the selection process in many cases to those who can afford/cant afford it, and worst of all it artificially creates a glass ceiling to those who have done the "hard-yards" in air taxis and T/Props.
Be that as it may, there is a market for it and legitimate operators are making money from desperate/inexperienced candidates.
Until such time as airlines run out of suitable applicants who can afford a Type on their license, this situation will continue. After all....when you attend oxford aviation on an intergrated course....you expect to walk onto an A320/B737 dont you...
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bri
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PICMAS
Who are you?
If somebody wants advice they have the right to ask for it.
And what does mental capacity have to do with taking a different route to what you would prefer.
I believe that even if you pay for a type rating you are still required to achieve the same standard.
I think you need to wind your neck in cause you are close to becomming an arrogant to$$er.
Who are you?
If somebody wants advice they have the right to ask for it.
And what does mental capacity have to do with taking a different route to what you would prefer.
I believe that even if you pay for a type rating you are still required to achieve the same standard.
I think you need to wind your neck in cause you are close to becomming an arrogant to$$er.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Merritt Island
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TooLowTerrain - yep I think you hit it on the head when you talked about being up to standard. I spoke to one of the sales reps at EagleJet International and what he said mirrored your views. Money might get you into a TR course but it doesn't guarantee you'll pass and if you do then you've got to face the airline assessment even if you're paying them for an FO program.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: blank
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have nothing to offer but an excess of money, I guess you have to buy a type rating. Skill and study, interpersonal skills and a little bit of independent thinking is cheaper.
Good luck all. Another good year for the banks!
Good luck all. Another good year for the banks!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spoke to one of the sales reps at EagleJet International and what he said mirrored your views. Money might get you into a TR course but it doesn't guarantee you'll pass and if you do then you've got to face the airline assessment even if you're paying them for an FO program.
"Well son, as long as you pay we will take anybody on, pay a little extra and you won't have to meet any requirements"
If somebody wants advice they have the right to ask for it.
And what does mental capacity have to do with taking a different route to what you would prefer
I think you need to wind your neck in cause you are close to becomming an arrogant to$$er.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bri
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So... If you pay for the type rating yourself as oppose to somebody else picking up the tab,
you have less skill
what a pile of cack!
Not everybody has a rich family... some of these self funders might actually have worked for the cash.
Just cause they have not worked in the aviation industry does not mean they have not worked.
I think that some of your moaners have an ego problem..
Make you feel special does it when a newbe in a cessna has to hold in order to give way to your big MD80.
PICSMAS
Clearly you have a problem with somebody asking something you dont agree with.
Lots of people have expressed their opinions for & against self funding however.
You feel the need to display your views in an arrogant, aggresive manner.
There is this little room called JETBLAST, why dont you go and try your stuff down there..
If you got the balls.
Me finks not
You will get eaten alive.
you have less skill
what a pile of cack!
Not everybody has a rich family... some of these self funders might actually have worked for the cash.
Just cause they have not worked in the aviation industry does not mean they have not worked.
I think that some of your moaners have an ego problem..
Make you feel special does it when a newbe in a cessna has to hold in order to give way to your big MD80.
PICSMAS
Sounds like you believe somebody owes you advise?!?
Lots of people have expressed their opinions for & against self funding however.
You feel the need to display your views in an arrogant, aggresive manner.
There is this little room called JETBLAST, why dont you go and try your stuff down there..
If you got the balls.
Me finks not
You will get eaten alive.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So... If you pay for the type rating yourself as oppose to somebody else picking up the tab, you have less skill
Clearly you have a problem with somebody asking something you dont agree with.
You feel the need to display your views in an arrogant, aggresive manner.
Not everybody has a rich family... some of these self funders might actually have worked for the cash.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This topic seems now to have become a vehicle for those with entrenched views to abuse those whose views are different. Rather than a discussion, this resembles nothing more than a playground shouting match.
Those of you, on either side of the argument, who feel that abuse, ridicule, profanity and name-calling somehow reinforce your case need to step back and think carefully about what you are trying to achieve with your contributions to this or any Pprune debate. The old saying 'it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're stupid, than to open it and prove your stupidity' springs to mind...
This topic is now closed.
Scroggs
Those of you, on either side of the argument, who feel that abuse, ridicule, profanity and name-calling somehow reinforce your case need to step back and think carefully about what you are trying to achieve with your contributions to this or any Pprune debate. The old saying 'it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're stupid, than to open it and prove your stupidity' springs to mind...
This topic is now closed.
Scroggs
