effect of foreign pilots on the jobmarket?
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effect of foreign pilots on the jobmarket?
I'm one of many pilots with a frozen ATPL seeking their first flying job in the UK. To get some great experience and gain a 'foot in the door', I've been working in Ops for for the past six months for an airline based at LGW. This is my very first job in aviation and one of the things that has surprised me is the amount of pilots from other countries there are flying for UK airlines.
I regularly hear transmissions from UK airlines on the LGW Servisair frequency from pilots with foreign accents. More commonly, these come from easyJet, Flybe and less, but still regularly, from airlines such as Thomas Cook, MyTravel, Britannia and Excel. I do not listen to BA as they are not on the same freqency. The airline itself that I work for has a large proportion of Danish and Scandinavian pilots.
As this was something I hadn't appreciated before I was wanting to know if this has always been the case or is it a relatively new situation? Have the airlines that have been expanding with new aircraft on order (easyJet/Flybe) got a higher proportion of foreign pilots than the rest because they found difficult to recruit suitably qualified pilots from the UK? Is this a positive or negative effect on these airlines?
As someone seeking flying work, it is worrying to me to think that I need to compete with not only my fellow countrymen but also with foreign pilots, alhough I am not blowing this out of proportion. I am aware that this industry is certainly not the only one to be affected in this way.
Perhaps others would like to add their comments on this. Do other people in my situation think about this as well?
I hope I won't be jumped on by the PC Brigade.
I regularly hear transmissions from UK airlines on the LGW Servisair frequency from pilots with foreign accents. More commonly, these come from easyJet, Flybe and less, but still regularly, from airlines such as Thomas Cook, MyTravel, Britannia and Excel. I do not listen to BA as they are not on the same freqency. The airline itself that I work for has a large proportion of Danish and Scandinavian pilots.
As this was something I hadn't appreciated before I was wanting to know if this has always been the case or is it a relatively new situation? Have the airlines that have been expanding with new aircraft on order (easyJet/Flybe) got a higher proportion of foreign pilots than the rest because they found difficult to recruit suitably qualified pilots from the UK? Is this a positive or negative effect on these airlines?
As someone seeking flying work, it is worrying to me to think that I need to compete with not only my fellow countrymen but also with foreign pilots, alhough I am not blowing this out of proportion. I am aware that this industry is certainly not the only one to be affected in this way.
Perhaps others would like to add their comments on this. Do other people in my situation think about this as well?
I hope I won't be jumped on by the PC Brigade.
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I think your post fly-half was fair and I hope it won't be hijacked by the PC Brigade !
I was born here my parents however, do come from abroad. Whilst I have every sympathy with foreign Pilots looking for work and getting it, I am aware that a number do eventually return to their original countries. I recently spoke to an Aussie Capt who said his plans would be to return home, in Oz, to be with his family. As far as airlines go, I do believe at times their long term view on recruitment is somewhat blinkered. Surely it would be more sensible to recruit knowing that your prospective employee would more than likely stay, as opposed to foreign Pilots building up experience and moving back to their native countries?
I strongly believe immigrants are good for this country, lets face it, my parents came over in the 60's and have made a positive contribution to this country . The point being they stayed and not just made a quick buck and return. Airlines do need to wake up and realise that recruitment is a long term issue. It’s not like where facing a shortage like the nursing sector. Just look at all the qualified wannabes desperate for jobs and a large number having a variety of experience......surely that counts for something ??
sp
I was born here my parents however, do come from abroad. Whilst I have every sympathy with foreign Pilots looking for work and getting it, I am aware that a number do eventually return to their original countries. I recently spoke to an Aussie Capt who said his plans would be to return home, in Oz, to be with his family. As far as airlines go, I do believe at times their long term view on recruitment is somewhat blinkered. Surely it would be more sensible to recruit knowing that your prospective employee would more than likely stay, as opposed to foreign Pilots building up experience and moving back to their native countries?
I strongly believe immigrants are good for this country, lets face it, my parents came over in the 60's and have made a positive contribution to this country . The point being they stayed and not just made a quick buck and return. Airlines do need to wake up and realise that recruitment is a long term issue. It’s not like where facing a shortage like the nursing sector. Just look at all the qualified wannabes desperate for jobs and a large number having a variety of experience......surely that counts for something ??
sp
Last edited by salapilot; 5th Sep 2004 at 15:39.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
What's the difference between a local pilot moving on to a different job in 3-5 years time than a foreign born pilot moving back home in 3-5 years time?
It's still the same training cost to the company concerned.
Do you intend to stay in the same job for 20-30 years?
It's still the same training cost to the company concerned.
Do you intend to stay in the same job for 20-30 years?
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Of course there is always going to be turnover, but the chances are the local Pilot is going to stay longer than the foreign one. Especially when you find the company of your choice, base, aircraft, etc etc
sp
sp
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Well I'm one of these evil foreign job thieves myself, and I would just like to point out that I have in the last few weeks had an early and unexpected promotion to command on my turboprop type, due to the fact that the British guy in the queue above me has just left the company after a <2 year period, to go fly for a low cost jet operator.
Personally I really like my job, as a turboprop captain I'm doing as well financially as a lot of my compatriots in the RHS of jets (thanks mostly to all you thousands of clueless muppets buying type ratings on 737s and undermining working conditions at big airlines), and I have no intention of moving on for a good long time.
I actually quite like it here, but unfortunately my (English) wife has spent a year or two back in New Zealand, and she's already determined that we'll be away back down under when the time comes to have kids, because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society, but it won't be for a few years yet
The funny thing is, that now they have a kiwi in the extended family, the mother- and father-in-law, the brother-in-law and his wife and kids, have all gained a few extra points in the NZ immigration computer system and they have all in the last few months put applications in to emigrate down under
Presumably at the time they emigrate, they'll end up stealing a kiwi computer-programmer, school-teacher and company-director's job from some more deserving person who's lived down under all their lives ... but that's the nature of modern life isn't it. It's a global market.
Personally I really like my job, as a turboprop captain I'm doing as well financially as a lot of my compatriots in the RHS of jets (thanks mostly to all you thousands of clueless muppets buying type ratings on 737s and undermining working conditions at big airlines), and I have no intention of moving on for a good long time.
I actually quite like it here, but unfortunately my (English) wife has spent a year or two back in New Zealand, and she's already determined that we'll be away back down under when the time comes to have kids, because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society, but it won't be for a few years yet
The funny thing is, that now they have a kiwi in the extended family, the mother- and father-in-law, the brother-in-law and his wife and kids, have all gained a few extra points in the NZ immigration computer system and they have all in the last few months put applications in to emigrate down under
Presumably at the time they emigrate, they'll end up stealing a kiwi computer-programmer, school-teacher and company-director's job from some more deserving person who's lived down under all their lives ... but that's the nature of modern life isn't it. It's a global market.
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You've kind of answered my point Luke, as I have no doubt you enjoy what you do, in the long term the Airline industry wont have gained from you, as your heart(or your wifes) is clealry in NZ.
I totally agree that it is a Global Market and nothing will change as this particular industry cannot (or will not) in terms of recruitment think past the next few years. Like I said I am totally for foreign workers to come over , as I strongly believe in a diverse and culturally mixed society, as it makes for a better world. However the influx is short lived and airlines then have to fork out for more training. Or as you put "muppets" are prepared to fork the money out themselves, which is another argument altogther.
sp
I totally agree that it is a Global Market and nothing will change as this particular industry cannot (or will not) in terms of recruitment think past the next few years. Like I said I am totally for foreign workers to come over , as I strongly believe in a diverse and culturally mixed society, as it makes for a better world. However the influx is short lived and airlines then have to fork out for more training. Or as you put "muppets" are prepared to fork the money out themselves, which is another argument altogther.
sp
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there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society, but it won't be for a few years yet
thousands of clueless muppets buying type ratings on 737s and undermining working conditions at big airlines
Since getting my job i to have heard the variety of foreign voices on British airlines including BA, VS and BMI and then wonder why my British mates can't get jobs and then have to go and become a "Clueless Muppet".
In my airline over 10% of the pilots are foreign mostly from down under and for some of them, their attitude stinks.
Luke
I would have no problem with any amount of foreign pilots working in this country if the playing fields were level. How many British pilots are working in Aus/NZ and i dont mean contract pilots as they are only there in the short term and usually move on. Go on how many British citizens are working for QF or even Virgin Blue?
It seems that every country except this one and perhaps Ireland protects its own with rules and regulations barring the dirty johnny foreigner.
You will see British airlines advertise in FI for flight crew, but to date i have yet to see LH, AZ, AF, KL, QF, NZ etc etc or any of the other national carriers advertise for pilots or cadets and allow the world to have a go. Sounds like protectionism to me.
Consider this....maybe wages would be higher for UK pilots if there weren't so many foreigners comming in with guess what ....Type Ratings and willing to work for...well anything.
And what is is that decrepit edifice to past and present BA pilots doing about it NOTHING! As long as the subs keep comming in why should they care where its comming from, at least the IPA did try to do something about it.
Im not racist just British and proud and it sickens me to the back teeth to see British airlines looking out for others before they look out for their own in the name of saving a bob or two.
Fly half
Sorry i didnt put this across as well as you but maybe i just said what you were thinking.
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Whatever your position on this argument, the legislation that not only allows but forces British companies to offer employment to foreign nationals from Europe and those from Commonwealth countries with direct British ancestry is a matter for Government, not the companies that have to abide by those rules. It is an issue that affects all employers in UK, with the sole (I believe) exception of the Armed Services - who have some pretty odd rules about accptable nationalities themselves.
You can of course lobby BALPA on the issue, but they are powerless to overturn legislation which is fundamental to the UK's membership of the EU - whether you like it or not!
Scroggs
You can of course lobby BALPA on the issue, but they are powerless to overturn legislation which is fundamental to the UK's membership of the EU - whether you like it or not!
Scroggs
PPRuNe Handmaiden
When I was working for various companies in Australia at least 10% of the workforce were foreign. Most of them were British.
I'm talking about the companies in the bush as well as the cities. Ranging from C207's to Dash 8's.
I also know of quite a few Brits in Qantas as well.
There were quite a few Brits in Ansett as well. (At least 10%!!)
Did they have the right to live and work in Australia? Yes.
Did they hold an Australian CPL/ATPL? Yes.
Did they have the minimum experience required for the job? Yes, all had more than the minimums.
Did they deserve the job? Yes.
End of argument really.
One Brit skipped the country back to UK after just getting a type rating (Bandeirante). He owed a bond and 2 weeks holiday. He resigned by fax. So, "ripping" off companies isn't solely an Antipodean trait. Perhaps he learnt it from us? Oh well.
Why do you think the "foreigners" are getting the work? Most of the time it's because they have the experience that is required by that company. If a Brit has the same experience, you'd better believe that the Brit will have probably an advantage but if you can't match the experience of the foreigners. Don't whinge about it, get the experience.
Ok, getting the experience? How? Do what we all have done. Find where the jobs are and get the jobs. If it means getting an instructor rating and doing that for a few years, do it. If it means lowering your sights and getting a turboprop job flying something basic, do it. If it means going to Africa or the Caribbean and flying there, do it.
This argument has been bandied around since pontious was a pilot. Just remember, if every British pilot came home from Australia, Hong Kong, the ME, do you honestly think you'd get a job then? No.
I left my home in Sydney to pursue this career. Drove to the other end of the country on a hope of a job. 5,000km away... Then shifted another 1,000km to get another job... then another 3,500km to get another... Then finally, 12,000miles to go through the hoops to get a JAR ATPL. That's an idea of the determination that the so called foreign pilots have when they decide to go to the UK.
Yes, it's frustrating. It's easy to blame others for not suceeding. You have to keep looking for the openings and being ready to take advantage of any opportunity. Good luck.
I'm talking about the companies in the bush as well as the cities. Ranging from C207's to Dash 8's.
I also know of quite a few Brits in Qantas as well.
There were quite a few Brits in Ansett as well. (At least 10%!!)
Did they have the right to live and work in Australia? Yes.
Did they hold an Australian CPL/ATPL? Yes.
Did they have the minimum experience required for the job? Yes, all had more than the minimums.
Did they deserve the job? Yes.
End of argument really.
One Brit skipped the country back to UK after just getting a type rating (Bandeirante). He owed a bond and 2 weeks holiday. He resigned by fax. So, "ripping" off companies isn't solely an Antipodean trait. Perhaps he learnt it from us? Oh well.
Why do you think the "foreigners" are getting the work? Most of the time it's because they have the experience that is required by that company. If a Brit has the same experience, you'd better believe that the Brit will have probably an advantage but if you can't match the experience of the foreigners. Don't whinge about it, get the experience.
Ok, getting the experience? How? Do what we all have done. Find where the jobs are and get the jobs. If it means getting an instructor rating and doing that for a few years, do it. If it means lowering your sights and getting a turboprop job flying something basic, do it. If it means going to Africa or the Caribbean and flying there, do it.
This argument has been bandied around since pontious was a pilot. Just remember, if every British pilot came home from Australia, Hong Kong, the ME, do you honestly think you'd get a job then? No.
I left my home in Sydney to pursue this career. Drove to the other end of the country on a hope of a job. 5,000km away... Then shifted another 1,000km to get another job... then another 3,500km to get another... Then finally, 12,000miles to go through the hoops to get a JAR ATPL. That's an idea of the determination that the so called foreign pilots have when they decide to go to the UK.
Yes, it's frustrating. It's easy to blame others for not suceeding. You have to keep looking for the openings and being ready to take advantage of any opportunity. Good luck.
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Scroggs
I agree and because of the PC crowd and spineless government we have rules that are beyond liberal and very generous when it comes to looking after foreigners, but surely i pay my dues to Balpa to look after British Airline Pilots. Sruely there must be some sort of deal they can come up with to employ nationals first, even those willing to fund their ratings.
How is it that the number of foreign pilots in AF LH AZ etc etc are as good as zero and these airlines get away with it, flouting all EU rules.
Redsnail
I would like to see the number of British pilots in QF as i dont believe that it would number anything above 0.5% please prove me wrong.
I also seem to remember Ansett pilots going on strike in the late 80's and the mangement asking the world for crews and a/c. It would be interesting to see how many Brits they have employed on a permanent contract since.
And please, though you have been gracious in your lack of comment on living in this country, remind some of your fellow countrymen to show some respect to the indigenous population that have been good enough to offer them the job that their own country couldn't.
When it comes to the likes of EK and CX et al yes there are plenty of Brits, Kiwis and Aussies working for these organisations as the local population cannot supply enough pilots with this i have no problem.
As for FR again i cant complain as ther are plenty of British pilots working for them both here and in Ireland and its an Irish airline.
I hope Qantas doubles in size and needs all the Aussie pilots it can get. That should solve the unemployed pilot situation in this country.
You can of course lobby BALPA on the issue, but they are powerless to overturn legislation which is fundamental to the UK's membership of the EU - whether you like it or not!
How is it that the number of foreign pilots in AF LH AZ etc etc are as good as zero and these airlines get away with it, flouting all EU rules.
Redsnail
I would like to see the number of British pilots in QF as i dont believe that it would number anything above 0.5% please prove me wrong.
I also seem to remember Ansett pilots going on strike in the late 80's and the mangement asking the world for crews and a/c. It would be interesting to see how many Brits they have employed on a permanent contract since.
And please, though you have been gracious in your lack of comment on living in this country, remind some of your fellow countrymen to show some respect to the indigenous population that have been good enough to offer them the job that their own country couldn't.
When it comes to the likes of EK and CX et al yes there are plenty of Brits, Kiwis and Aussies working for these organisations as the local population cannot supply enough pilots with this i have no problem.
As for FR again i cant complain as ther are plenty of British pilots working for them both here and in Ireland and its an Irish airline.
I hope Qantas doubles in size and needs all the Aussie pilots it can get. That should solve the unemployed pilot situation in this country.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Flaps,
Why would I rubbish the UK? I like it. However, when we go to the local pub there's plenty of Englishmen who are quite happy to rubbish the UK.
When I was in Eastern (Qantaslink, BA Citiexpress is the equivalent), there were 10 British pilots, a Canuck, an American, a couple of Kiwis. Pilot population at the time was 120.
I know of several British pilots in QF, since I don't know them all, I can't give you an actual number.
In Ansett again I don't know the actual number. There were 800 pilots in Ansett. At the Perth base on the Bae 146 fleet, there were 40 pilots. 8 of them were British.
I am in the UK because my father was born in Scotland. Thus I am eligible for a British passport. My fiance is here because his grandparents were born in Scotland. He's here on a visa.
If you had an Australian parent/grandparents then you could get the passport too.
Ok, you don't want to. You don't want to shift countries to get experience. That's not my fault.
We both hold JAR ATPLS with a reasonable log book too. Note, we too get knocked back for jobs here. It's not all plain sailing for the foreigners.
The govt isn't going to change the immigration rules. Gee, they're letting more in from Europe.
How did that 90% get the jobs? In my last job, 90% of the employees were British.
One was from the ROI, one was Italian, one was from Kenya and I am from Australia. The rest are from Britain.
As I've said many times, it's a mongrel of an industry to get a start in. That's the same the world over.
Why would I rubbish the UK? I like it. However, when we go to the local pub there's plenty of Englishmen who are quite happy to rubbish the UK.
When I was in Eastern (Qantaslink, BA Citiexpress is the equivalent), there were 10 British pilots, a Canuck, an American, a couple of Kiwis. Pilot population at the time was 120.
I know of several British pilots in QF, since I don't know them all, I can't give you an actual number.
In Ansett again I don't know the actual number. There were 800 pilots in Ansett. At the Perth base on the Bae 146 fleet, there were 40 pilots. 8 of them were British.
I am in the UK because my father was born in Scotland. Thus I am eligible for a British passport. My fiance is here because his grandparents were born in Scotland. He's here on a visa.
If you had an Australian parent/grandparents then you could get the passport too.
Ok, you don't want to. You don't want to shift countries to get experience. That's not my fault.
We both hold JAR ATPLS with a reasonable log book too. Note, we too get knocked back for jobs here. It's not all plain sailing for the foreigners.
The govt isn't going to change the immigration rules. Gee, they're letting more in from Europe.
How did that 90% get the jobs? In my last job, 90% of the employees were British.
One was from the ROI, one was Italian, one was from Kenya and I am from Australia. The rest are from Britain.
As I've said many times, it's a mongrel of an industry to get a start in. That's the same the world over.
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Redsnail
Please dont get me wrong im not having a go at you but a situation that has arisen through many different factors mainly due to airline greed and short sightedness.
The thing about Aussies and Kiwis is that many do come over here and rubbish our way of life yet benefit from all that it offers eg a job! Thats not to say that the Swiss, French, Belgian Scandinavians etc etc are any better.
The Global Market is a myth including the Job Market as each country is quite clever in producing rules and regulations to exclude the "outsiders". For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly. America is quite adept at protectionism yet preaches the free market......my arse. I would not stand a chance of getting a job with any US airline and that includes pre 9/11. Yet on more than one ocassion i have heard American accents on UK aircraft including Speedbirds.
Also please dont take my comments as being anti Aus/NZ its every nationality that comes over where i wouldn't have a fighting chance of getting a job in their country of origin.
It's simple the whole world is welcome here providing I get the same welcome and opportunities over there, but this is not always the case.
PS. Those English who rubbish this great country in your local can't truly call themselves English despite that great British ability to laugh at ourselves.
Please dont get me wrong im not having a go at you but a situation that has arisen through many different factors mainly due to airline greed and short sightedness.
The thing about Aussies and Kiwis is that many do come over here and rubbish our way of life yet benefit from all that it offers eg a job! Thats not to say that the Swiss, French, Belgian Scandinavians etc etc are any better.
The Global Market is a myth including the Job Market as each country is quite clever in producing rules and regulations to exclude the "outsiders". For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly. America is quite adept at protectionism yet preaches the free market......my arse. I would not stand a chance of getting a job with any US airline and that includes pre 9/11. Yet on more than one ocassion i have heard American accents on UK aircraft including Speedbirds.
Also please dont take my comments as being anti Aus/NZ its every nationality that comes over where i wouldn't have a fighting chance of getting a job in their country of origin.
It's simple the whole world is welcome here providing I get the same welcome and opportunities over there, but this is not always the case.
PS. Those English who rubbish this great country in your local can't truly call themselves English despite that great British ability to laugh at ourselves.
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Hmmm, I wasn't expecting to hear about OZ and NZ pilots working in the UK. I have only now been thinking about this and feel that there is a difference between those people and the pilots I was considering from other countries in Eurpoe. I think that pilots who have come from OZ, NZ and even North America will be more committed to settling down here in the UK. They have no other choice really. They've moved half way around the World for work and are unlikely to move back for a while because it takes a lot more effort. As such, I don't really have a problem with our airlines taking a number of them on.
On the other hand, pilots from other countries in Europe can easily move back to their homelands. SALAPILOT mentioned some good points about airline recruitment and I agree that airlines should look at the longer term when they recruit. Of course they are businesses at the end of the day but I would have thought loyalty from the crews would be a benefit. The airlines that are expanding so quickly just want their qualified pilots with type-ratings. Doesn't it affect CRM when pilots from different nationalities fly together? Different cultures, different senses of humour/lack of humour? Now that's opening up a completely different can of worms!
In the airline I work for, many of our Scandinavian pilots spend their days off at home in their own countries. This has created a problem for crewing when they would like to offer day-off payements when we are desperately trying to find crew. The pilots who are regularly abroad are totally unavailable. Not the fault fo the pilots, more the fault of the airline for not having enough crew, but it's still an example I can think of. Also, these pilots get frustrated when they have to remain contactable on their standby's but are then stood down. They could have been in their own countries where their friends and families are. "Can't wait to move back home".
On the other hand, pilots from other countries in Europe can easily move back to their homelands. SALAPILOT mentioned some good points about airline recruitment and I agree that airlines should look at the longer term when they recruit. Of course they are businesses at the end of the day but I would have thought loyalty from the crews would be a benefit. The airlines that are expanding so quickly just want their qualified pilots with type-ratings. Doesn't it affect CRM when pilots from different nationalities fly together? Different cultures, different senses of humour/lack of humour? Now that's opening up a completely different can of worms!
In the airline I work for, many of our Scandinavian pilots spend their days off at home in their own countries. This has created a problem for crewing when they would like to offer day-off payements when we are desperately trying to find crew. The pilots who are regularly abroad are totally unavailable. Not the fault fo the pilots, more the fault of the airline for not having enough crew, but it's still an example I can think of. Also, these pilots get frustrated when they have to remain contactable on their standby's but are then stood down. They could have been in their own countries where their friends and families are. "Can't wait to move back home".
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My 10pence worth
Just to qualify what im about to say.....I am about as PC as Tony Blair is Honest.........
As a kiwi living in the UK....(and as of last wednesday a naturalised Brit) I have to take up a little of what flap60 has said and disagree with it. (oh and flaps 60 I read lots of your posts and 99 times out of a hundred I agree with you)
I myself having had several false starts to my career moved to the UK did the JAR conversion..then promptly landed a job, very lucky....and dont I know it. At no time however did I think that the UK was nirvana in respect of lifestyle, quality of life, and least of all weather! However I think I am worldly enough, and god forbid intelligent (ok so I can fly..but I can also spell..almost!) enough to understand the dynamics of this great business called aviation.
Sky toddler.. you are right...muppets with too much money, or access to money, or worse attitude and money are the REAL ruination of this industry..that goes for Brits..Ozzies..Kiwis..Europeans..the Irish..and anyone else ive not mentioned. The facts are Flaps60 that most of the people who actually go to the trouble of emmigrating....intergrating into a different society...imposing huge(1NZ dollar=.37pence)financial burdens on themselves just to get a basic qualification are the very people HR departments, Chief pilots, and Ops people want to employ. I know tommorrow that if I was compared against another individual of equal experience..the chances are that the decision would be based on that persons personality and percieved ability to fit in.....nothing more.
Yes there are times when money talks...and bull@"*t walks but in general, ability counts for a lot more than you seem to imply.
I can also honestly say Flaps60, that in my experience here in the UK the biggest threat to Brit pilots getting that first job...and I hate to say this......is themselves. Im not sure if its a symptom of modern British society, or just perhaps the many individuals I have crossed paths with; In my experience a vast majority seem unwilling to graft, unable to listen, show little or no respect for their peers, and some even expect success at the first hurdle. Now if all this sounds a bit like Brit bashing I apologise...im merely passing on my observations and opinions.....and for what its worth my Brit wife wants to emmigrate to Oz..(whatch out redsnail im gonna steal an Ozzies job!) but I would rather stay..cos I love the beer...!
Cheers
H
As a kiwi living in the UK....(and as of last wednesday a naturalised Brit) I have to take up a little of what flap60 has said and disagree with it. (oh and flaps 60 I read lots of your posts and 99 times out of a hundred I agree with you)
I myself having had several false starts to my career moved to the UK did the JAR conversion..then promptly landed a job, very lucky....and dont I know it. At no time however did I think that the UK was nirvana in respect of lifestyle, quality of life, and least of all weather! However I think I am worldly enough, and god forbid intelligent (ok so I can fly..but I can also spell..almost!) enough to understand the dynamics of this great business called aviation.
Sky toddler.. you are right...muppets with too much money, or access to money, or worse attitude and money are the REAL ruination of this industry..that goes for Brits..Ozzies..Kiwis..Europeans..the Irish..and anyone else ive not mentioned. The facts are Flaps60 that most of the people who actually go to the trouble of emmigrating....intergrating into a different society...imposing huge(1NZ dollar=.37pence)financial burdens on themselves just to get a basic qualification are the very people HR departments, Chief pilots, and Ops people want to employ. I know tommorrow that if I was compared against another individual of equal experience..the chances are that the decision would be based on that persons personality and percieved ability to fit in.....nothing more.
Yes there are times when money talks...and bull@"*t walks but in general, ability counts for a lot more than you seem to imply.
I can also honestly say Flaps60, that in my experience here in the UK the biggest threat to Brit pilots getting that first job...and I hate to say this......is themselves. Im not sure if its a symptom of modern British society, or just perhaps the many individuals I have crossed paths with; In my experience a vast majority seem unwilling to graft, unable to listen, show little or no respect for their peers, and some even expect success at the first hurdle. Now if all this sounds a bit like Brit bashing I apologise...im merely passing on my observations and opinions.....and for what its worth my Brit wife wants to emmigrate to Oz..(whatch out redsnail im gonna steal an Ozzies job!) but I would rather stay..cos I love the beer...!
Cheers
H
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*sigh*
You British wannabes are your own worst enemies sometimes.
I know that the normal half dozen usual xenophobic suspects are going to carry right on playing the man and not the ball for another couple of pages before this thread dies the usual anti-Johnny-Foreigner-thread death, but for the very small handful of you who are actually following this with an open mind :
Here's a question for you all
"As a British wannabe airline pilot, who do you think represents the greater threat to your long term future as a professional pilot in the United Kingdom?"
1) A small 5% handful of naturalized UK citizens, legal holders of UK passports and JAA ATPLs, whose heinous crime is that they wish to pilot a G-reg airliner despite having being born in another country / having a funny accent. Virtually to a man (woman) they are highly experienced professional members of the international airline pilot community. They have, invariably, made huge sacrifices and have worked extremely hard to get to the position they are in. They are not prepared to work for nothing or undercut others, are generally highly pro pilot-workforce, union fee paying, responsible citizens who will fight tooth and nail to protect or improve the working conditions for pilots in whichever country they find themselves?
2) The never ending stream of low houred individuals coming out of flying schools all over this country right now, who are prepared to, on top of the somewhere-between-£40- and £70 thousand they've just spent on professional pilot licence training, will then spend £50 for the privilege of submitting their CV to Ryanair, just so they can THEN drop £150 on a sim ride, £20,000 on a type rating, and THEN sign up for a contract that still includes a 3 year bond, with a basic pay rate of £9900 per annum plus sector pay, half pay for the first 6 months, and they STILL agree to pay for their own medicals, hotac, uniforms, meals, coffee on board the aircraft etc etc etc?
Who will your sons and daughters blame in a generation's time, for screwing the piloting profession so comprehensively, that it is about as well respected and rewarded as that of a checkout assistant or a Mcdonald's employee?
And the correct answer is : not ME matey potatey!
Think about it
And another thing ... with regard to bagging antipodeans who bag the UK ...
http://www.emigratenz.org/bye-bye-blighty.html
Sure looks to me like you\'d ALL pack your bags and leave if you could.
The difference is, that rather than talk about moving abroad, some of us actually prefer to get off our asses and DO it, as opposed to sitting about on internet forums and complaining about it
You British wannabes are your own worst enemies sometimes.
I know that the normal half dozen usual xenophobic suspects are going to carry right on playing the man and not the ball for another couple of pages before this thread dies the usual anti-Johnny-Foreigner-thread death, but for the very small handful of you who are actually following this with an open mind :
Here's a question for you all
"As a British wannabe airline pilot, who do you think represents the greater threat to your long term future as a professional pilot in the United Kingdom?"
1) A small 5% handful of naturalized UK citizens, legal holders of UK passports and JAA ATPLs, whose heinous crime is that they wish to pilot a G-reg airliner despite having being born in another country / having a funny accent. Virtually to a man (woman) they are highly experienced professional members of the international airline pilot community. They have, invariably, made huge sacrifices and have worked extremely hard to get to the position they are in. They are not prepared to work for nothing or undercut others, are generally highly pro pilot-workforce, union fee paying, responsible citizens who will fight tooth and nail to protect or improve the working conditions for pilots in whichever country they find themselves?
2) The never ending stream of low houred individuals coming out of flying schools all over this country right now, who are prepared to, on top of the somewhere-between-£40- and £70 thousand they've just spent on professional pilot licence training, will then spend £50 for the privilege of submitting their CV to Ryanair, just so they can THEN drop £150 on a sim ride, £20,000 on a type rating, and THEN sign up for a contract that still includes a 3 year bond, with a basic pay rate of £9900 per annum plus sector pay, half pay for the first 6 months, and they STILL agree to pay for their own medicals, hotac, uniforms, meals, coffee on board the aircraft etc etc etc?
Who will your sons and daughters blame in a generation's time, for screwing the piloting profession so comprehensively, that it is about as well respected and rewarded as that of a checkout assistant or a Mcdonald's employee?
And the correct answer is : not ME matey potatey!
Think about it
And another thing ... with regard to bagging antipodeans who bag the UK ...
http://www.emigratenz.org/bye-bye-blighty.html
Sure looks to me like you\'d ALL pack your bags and leave if you could.
The difference is, that rather than talk about moving abroad, some of us actually prefer to get off our asses and DO it, as opposed to sitting about on internet forums and complaining about it
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
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and for what its worth my Brit wife wants to emmigrate to Oz..(whatch out redsnail im gonna steal an Ozzies job!)
Born in Portugal... Raised in the Uk... Learning to fly in the Uk and hope one day to fly downunder...
There you go, thats my plan 
Need some amber nectar now... By the way, interesting link Luke
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As a fully fledged antipodean working as a pilot in the UK all that I can say is any brit wannabe has just as much chance at the job as we do, the only reason one of 'us' gets the job over one of 'you' is that we will be better qualified. If we aren't then we won't get the job. I agree with Luke Skytoddler, you have a lot more to worry about than the small, yes small percentage of non british pilots.
Oh, and just one other thing:
Get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it
Oh, and just one other thing:
Get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it
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Flaps to 60
If you don't take the effort to speak/understand the language then your jobmarket will remain limited.
If you do take the effort you will make a chance in Germany, Austria or the Netherlands.
Cheers Joe
The Global Market is a myth including the Job Market as each country is quite clever in producing rules and regulations to exclude the "outsiders". For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly.
If you do take the effort you will make a chance in Germany, Austria or the Netherlands.
Cheers Joe
PPRuNe Handmaiden
haughty,
Fill your boots mate, go for it
Fill your boots mate, go for it