effect of foreign pilots on the jobmarket?

[trainer too 2]

For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly

Hahahaha, just recalling the guy at KLM mainline doing his best talking dutch. The Canadian guys flying for Base airlines, the Canadian guys at Schreiner Airways, the addition of the KL UK guys at KLM Cityhopper and then the guy wiuth the French accent on the Air Exel ATR between MST and AMS.. say again your point was...


Fly half. If al the EK, CX etc poms came back tommorrow and all the "foreign" pilots were thrown out you still had a few thousand very experienced pilots out of a job. That is the fun of it, you will have the change to work around the world, use that ability. Don't blame others as it does not work...

What about the EZY pilots based in Germany, should it all be Germans etc.... Would not work I guess, it is good to get a foreign mentality into Germany as it makes us all a bit richer!

[flaps to 60]

Haughtney

the UK the biggest threat to Brit pilots getting that first job...and I hate to say this......is themselves. Im not sure if its a symptom of modern British society, or just perhaps the many individuals I have crossed paths with; In my experience a vast majority seem unwilling to graft, unable to listen, show little or no respect for their peers, and some even expect success at the first hurdle

I don't disagree with this point, not Brit bashing at all, but an insightful observation that is unfortunately a result of the PC lobby's stranglehold on modern British culture. Congratulations on becoming a Brit. I think from tone of your comments which has been infinitely more intelligent than some of your compatriots more base efforts, you will get on well here.

Also what about the huge risks i've taken selling my house putting my marriage on hold moving all over the place to get a shot only to see people who have only travelled a bit longer than me to then get the job. Im not the only one there are hundreds who are also deserving and most unlikely to "return home" when they've had enough.

Im sorry i dont buy the bit about moving half way across the world as a reason for employment for two reasons.

1) You could easy retrace your steps as many do leaving your employer in the lurch and having more expensive training to do.

2) Many non nationals come in with alot more experience than the locals. Many AuNZ pilots come over with alot of dare i say it "bush flying" and a couple of thousand hours which will get you command alot quicker than a 200hr chappie and it's really this CP's want as most UK airlines are getting short of skippers.

LST

If you were a doctor or nurse or teacher i would welcome you with open arms as we have a shortage of these skills in this country. Unfortunately the marketing skills of CABAIR and OATS et al have produced a glut of qualified people only to be compounded by foreigners comming in.

What about the hundreds of Brits who are working their nuts off in flying clubs with hundreds of hours maybe even thousands only to see you come with a bit more experience to get the job. Were not all parent funded 200hr 18yr olds expecting a job just because i attended Oxford.

My opionions on the FR debate has been voiced before. Plus i have no probelms with Irish pilots as there are plenty in EI, RE, FR etc

Those Brits wanting to leave good luck to them and i will help them pack if they're not proud to be British.

Studi

You said it yourself "be fluent in German or have Swiss citizenship", I have neither and therefore I'm excluded.

Artificial

When you say "better qualified" I take it you mean more experienced or are you opening another whole can of worms?

As for the rest of your post.......its rather childish.....and get over that.

Joe_Bar

In my view a global market is where i have freedom to buy what i want from where i want or to travel and work where and when i want anywhere on Gods green earth.

National Borders, Immigaration, GATT, Terrorism, good old fashioned xenophobia etc etc has put a rather sharp end to all that. We have the US battling with the EU who not so long ago had quotas on Japanese cars who place huge taxes on foreign cars....come on i can go all day on this one. Joe be very aware the Global market is a Myth perpetuated by CEO's Politicians and lawyers for thier own gain. How many times has the WTO conferences ended in disaray because each country is looking after its own.

Once again chaps i state my previous position I welcome all from where i would be welcomed.

Can't think of anything else to say at the moment...goodnight

[flaps to 60]

Studi

I dont actually want to work outside of this country so i have no need to learn another language even though at school i learnt French and German.

But if i did why should I learn another language when everybody speaks English in this job

You had to learn English because it is the language of avaition and international business.....sorry thats not my fault. And since when has EU citizenship been enough to get a Swiss passport?

Trainer

I take it from your pom reference that you are Australian? Plus you've argued 80% of my point for me, thank you.

Seeing as some of you are as sad as me and on the net at this time instead of being in the happy valley or falling out of a pub i thought id stay on for a while

[AIRWAY]

You had to learn English because it is the language of avaition

This can be argued, if im not mistaken ( I need to revise my air law ) english is "one" of the official languages in aviation with a few others

Has for the rest of your post regarding English this and English that i wont even go there...

AIRWAY


PS - By the way i speak 3 European languages not bad Bit more flexible when the job hunting time arrives

[flaps to 60]

Airway

Sorry for showing a bit of patriotism....in fact no im not sorry and you also need to read my posts again as i have been fair and willing to listen while stating my opinion something you might learn when you make it to the RHS.

3 languages may well help you when it comes to job hunting but dont bank on it. Lots of hours and contacts is what will help get the job.

When i fly outside of th UK its English that ATC, Ops, Despatchers, Met (including Volmets and ATIS) etc all speak to me as we all understand it ( to varying degrees).

Studi

Calm down its only a debate.

Your right i dont know much about EU rules and work regs because i have no need to at the moment as i have no intentions of moving out of the UK i like it here.

As for a reality check well thats another matter altogether.

My arguement is not to stop foreign pilots (who knows i might be one one day) but its the disproportionate amount in the UK and the apparent exclusion of foreigners from some foreign markets.

[AIRWAY]

Fellow Aviator,

Im not arguing about about your patriotism ( i even said i wont go there ), i just stated a comment about the English language in Aviation, maybe you have interpreted it in the wrong way???

I dont need to get to the RHS to teach me how to listen or how to state an opinion...

Heaps of hours Not yet... Contacts in Aviation I have a few...

[flaps to 60]

Airway

Very possibly as i did an early this morning and was up before the sparrows started farting........now getting tired and off to bed.

Get the hours some how and make more contacts at the moment its the only way to get a job.

Flaps

[scroggs]

English is not 'the' language of this job, it is one of the official languages of aviation recognised by ICAO. It is supposed to be the only language used for control of international flights, but there are enough legal exceptions to this rule to make it unworkable. I listen to ATC in many, many different countries in the world. Most use their own language when they can (no, it's not just France!).

All airlines conduct their business on the ground in their own language. If you can't speak it, you won't get a job. That applies just as much in UK as it does anywhere else. This whole rant by Flaps sounds like the raging of a small child; the essence of your argument is 'I want a job in Britain, therefore throw out enough nasty foreign people so I can have one'. Sorry, but you're wasting your - and our - time. Perhaps you should join the BNP.

Scroggs

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs

I've always had respect for your comments and that of the other moderators but who's ranting now. I always thought PPRUNE was not just about rumours in the industry but an OPEN forum on which to discuss and debate issues that both affect and effect you. Showing a bit of patroitism and caring about what's happening in our industry doesn't make one a bad person. Also read my profile i have a job in Britain.

throw out enough nasty foreign people

Scroggs.......come on.....show me where i said that or even infered it. All i've asked is that those who do come over to show some respect for our ways as they would if i worked in their country whats wrong with that.

All i want is a level playing field and from where i stand it certainly doesn't seem that way. Prove me wrong and i will apologise to those who are offended. But at the moment the flow of pilots seems to be one way. I have mates trying to get jobs overseas with some of the big carriers and cant get a look in.

Ok so English is not the official langauge but at the moment everyone speaks it and i'll live with that.

To my detractors i ask you this. As you have all stated there are foriegners including British pilots in your home country but you ended up in the UK for a job and be honest here....were you not just a little peeved that a non national got a job you could of had?

Ps. I couldn't join the BNP even if i wanted to if you know what i mean.

Also some time ago French carriers would not recognise a JAA licence unless it was done in France as two French mates told me. Protectionism for the purity of the French market perhaps?

[AIRWAY]

.

were you not just a little peeved that a non national got a job you could of had?

Well it doesnt bother "me"... Because i can always go elsewhere for a job... But its only my opinion probably because im young i have no family commitments and willing to travel around the world for a job, and to adapt wherever aviation takes me... I have to admit i have my eyes set for Australia

[scroggs]

Flaps, I didn't say you're a bad person. However, the thrust of the majority of your posts is that there are too many foreign pilots in Britain taking 'British' jobs. It therefore follows that you would rather they weren't here, does it not? As for the issue of fairness vis-a-vis other countries taking British pilots, I would venture to suggest that there are at least as many British pilots working overseas as there are foreign pilots working here. And yes, it even happens in France and Germany - if you are prepared to learn the language, which is only right and proper.

The fact is that, whether you were around to vote for it or not, Britain is tied by a host of treaties, agreements and alliances which promote the (relatively) free movement of labour amongst EU, EFTA and Commonwealth countries. Where you can show that a signatory to these agreements isn't holding up their side of the bargain, you can take them to court. It isn't an option to say 'We'll stop your lot coming here unless you sort it out - and by the way, start speaking English'!

The fact is that there are more potential pilots than jobs, and there are more airlines and pilot jobs in UK than anywhere else outside the US. We are lucky that the movement of labour is as free as it is; we would be cutting our noses off to spite our faces if we were to unilaterally retreat from our participation in this process. In any case, none of this is a matter for UK aviation employers; it is all a result of national and international legislation. Stamping your feet and saying 'it isn't fair' will get you nowhere, I'm afraid.

Scroggs

[ChocksAwayUK]

were you not just a little peeved that a non national got a job you could of had?

Obviously not your official language either!

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs

Deep down i know im not going to get anywhere as im only one voice, but im one of m.

I accept that in this market we have people just trying to get a flying job and admire the drive behind it even though i see my fellow country men unemployed...heck if i was in thier position i might well even do the same.

Come to my country but respect the land that feeds you instead of criticising it at every opportunity.

because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society,

Its comments like these from Luke Sky Todler that grate. Come over have a job i'll even buy you a pint in the pub but dont run my country down. Yes we might be over taxed over governed and possibly over populated but this country as far as im concerned is not a **** hole or miserable and im part of that society. If its that bad go home.

Look chaps and chapeses (No such word in sure but you get what i mean) As stated earlier im not racist as that would be impossible for me. I know this is going nowhere and has raised a few hackles but like the influx of foreign pilots its a fact of life and im off today and the living is easy.

So now i've said my peace i'll sit back and watch this space. Thank you for your frank and honest thoughts and opinions.

Chocksaway

Are you one of these people that instead of surfing porn sites or adding something worth while to the conversation go around looking at peoples grammer and spelling.

[ChocksAwayUK]

It's "grammar", dammit!

[flaps to 60]

Chocks

Good call!

Well done!

[ChocksAwayUK]

I apologise.. I just can't help myself.

Must. get. therapy.

[M.85]

Dear flyhalf,

Europe boundaries dont stop at the english channel..if you want a job look elsewhere..then come back when you have the requirements your local airlines are looking for...
I have moved to slovakia 6 months ago for my first jet job..90% of the first officers are coming from the europe you know..denmark sweden england austria germany france...we all speak english at work and never heard any slovaks asking why so many "western" europeans are heard over the radio..
In 6 months ill be on the left seat,something impossible in england for example..
The airline i work for is not all gold but at least it gives the chance to any nationality to join its ranks and the atmosphere hasnt changed since i joined in..its a great melting pot and the work with each crew is more than enjoyable.

Pay your dues one way or the other and consider taking 3 years abroad to get the experience and after its up to you to choose the airline you really want to work for.

I wish all of you looking for work good luck and a broadminded airline job seeking.

Regards,

M.85

[Maxiumus]

F to 60:

Just a thought or two. Ask yourself why all these people with their superior experience are are in the UK. Is it really because they would all rather live in the UK rather than home? Of course not. So why are they here? Because they can't get jobs at home, because the aviation indutries in other nations are not nearly so vibrant as the UK. Are you not glad that you at least have a chance of a job in your home country, whereas all these guys/girls don't? Have you any idea whatsoever how lucky you are that this is the case?
Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.
I for one am glad you are not flying shiny jets in my outfit, the company of these "foreign" pilots sounds far more appealing that 10 hours of listening to your angry and bitter vitriol.

[flaps to 60]

Maximus

Read my post again. I have a job in this country and fully aware of how lucky I am when i read the wannabes desperately looking for a job, even instructing. Once again for you i say " I welcome all from where I am welcome".

I also fly with "dirty foreigners" (as everybody except me puts it) for up to 10 hrs a day and i get on well with them just as i with the locals.

In fact i have nothing against them and then banter in the cockpit is the same as with everyone else. You know....state of the economy, what im doing on my days off, the good looking stewardess,OPS...(thats always a good one) how lucky we are to be here....the list is long. You have jumped to conclusions about me which is a trait i would not want to fly for 10hrs with.

Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.

This is a particularly dumb statement and cant quite fathom out the reasons for it. Of course im proud that that nation's aviation industry is probably second only to the US and in order for it to be a healthy one some measures taken may be distasteful to me but as said earlier what can i do as one voice. So i live with it.

It is also easy to take the high ground when you have a job. Ask those who have taken the biggets risk of thier lives if they would agree when they cant get a job and the dept collectors are knocking the door. I know i've been there.

M.85

I have moved to slovakia 6 months ago for my first jet job..90% of the first officers are coming from the europe you know..denmark sweden england austria germany france...we all speak english at work and never heard any slovaks asking why so many "western" europeans are heard over the radio..

How many locals are there hanging around with a CPL/IR looking for a job. Id wager not many if any as the former Eastern block countries dont have many pilot training schools as most of thier pilots came from the military. Russia is facing the same problem as the former national programme of pilot training is not attracting the same number of locals as before and they may well have to look outside for their pilots.


Hey CHOCKS how was that one or do i need to spell check it again

[scroggs]

Flaps I too get irritated by immigrants who feel that, having obtained a job, accommodation and security here (and possibly qualifying for benefits beforehand), they can turn round and criticise the country that gave them the opportunities they couldn't get at home. However, that's human nature, and we're unlikely to change it.

Best of luck with your campaign, but, as you suspect, it'll be a lonely one!

Scroggs