effect of foreign pilots on the jobmarket?
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Scroggs old chap i suspect your right but it was worth a try.
The other arguement is that why should a UK airline pay for a locals type rating when they can get an outsider with a type rating already.
Is this not similar to the argement about paying for your own rating?
TTFN
The other arguement is that why should a UK airline pay for a locals type rating when they can get an outsider with a type rating already.
Is this not similar to the argement about paying for your own rating?
TTFN
Last edited by flaps to 60; 7th Sep 2004 at 15:38.
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flaps to...
why is it impossible for you to be racist?
please don't say because you are black....i have been flying in south africa, democratic republic of congo, angola, central african republic, zimbabwe, rwanda, uganda, gabon, cameroon and algeria and i can confirm to you that it is not just white people who are racist!
but, i do think you have a point worth saying...and lets face it, not everyone is going to like or agree with everyone else...
why is it impossible for you to be racist?
please don't say because you are black....i have been flying in south africa, democratic republic of congo, angola, central african republic, zimbabwe, rwanda, uganda, gabon, cameroon and algeria and i can confirm to you that it is not just white people who are racist!
but, i do think you have a point worth saying...and lets face it, not everyone is going to like or agree with everyone else...
Last edited by south coast; 7th Sep 2004 at 17:03.
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Southcoast
I could be Jewish, Asian, mixed, black with lots of white mates or white with lots of black mates take your pick but iam not racist.
All I really see are good people and bad people and they come in a rainbow of colours.
I could be Jewish, Asian, mixed, black with lots of white mates or white with lots of black mates take your pick but iam not racist.
All I really see are good people and bad people and they come in a rainbow of colours.
Last edited by flaps to 60; 7th Sep 2004 at 18:31.
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Hey flaps
Which part of
immediately followed by
did you fail to understand?
Her words not mine, I can categorically assure you. As you well knew. So don't quote me out of context. And if I had a penny for every British person who's said to me "you left New Zealand to move to this place, you must be mad" ... don't even get me started
Britain-bashing is definitely your own national sport first and foremost.
Me I've got no axe to grind with the UK at all today
had a great day, on standby so I went kite surfing at St Andrews all day, in the scorching sunshine ... and got paid to do it ... heading out for a nice curry and a quiet ale in an hour or two ... as good as life gets 
Yes we 'may' end up moving on from here if I get a better offer, but the next port of call is just as likely to be Dubai or Hong Kong or something as it is to be Luton or Glasgow (or Auckland). Life's too short to spend it all in one location without seeing the world after all. Of course, if I was to go to an outfit like Cathay or Emirates I would have to raise myself to the same high standards as all those hundreds and hundreds of expat British pilots who comprise the majority of airline pilots in those two companies (and many others around the world).
And another thing - not all jobs are yours by god given right of just having an FATPL. Take the one I've got now, it was advertised in Flight for some considerable length of time, as specifically requiring a pilot with 2000+ hours and a decent amount of M/E. The reason it was advertised in Flight is obviously because the boss had no CVs in hand that were suitable ... and yes he was looking very hard! Yes I'm sure he had more cvs from wet-behind-the-ears 200 hour FATPLs than he knew what to do with, but that was fundamentally not what the job required. He ended up in desperation, asking a few other pilots in the company to recommend any of their mates, I got a phone call in my little air ambulance job on the other side of the world, and the rest is history. IF he had had any suitable UK-based CVs in the pile, I'm sure it would have saved him a lot of hassle, but at the end of the day, he didn't. What was the guy supposed to do?
Which part of
I actually quite like it here
but unfortunately my (English) wife has spent a year or two back in New Zealand, and she's already determined that we'll be away back down under when the time comes to have kids, because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that (etc etc) ...
Her words not mine, I can categorically assure you. As you well knew. So don't quote me out of context. And if I had a penny for every British person who's said to me "you left New Zealand to move to this place, you must be mad" ... don't even get me started
Britain-bashing is definitely your own national sport first and foremost.Me I've got no axe to grind with the UK at all today
had a great day, on standby so I went kite surfing at St Andrews all day, in the scorching sunshine ... and got paid to do it ... heading out for a nice curry and a quiet ale in an hour or two ... as good as life gets Yes we 'may' end up moving on from here if I get a better offer, but the next port of call is just as likely to be Dubai or Hong Kong or something as it is to be Luton or Glasgow (or Auckland). Life's too short to spend it all in one location without seeing the world after all. Of course, if I was to go to an outfit like Cathay or Emirates I would have to raise myself to the same high standards as all those hundreds and hundreds of expat British pilots who comprise the majority of airline pilots in those two companies (and many others around the world).
And another thing - not all jobs are yours by god given right of just having an FATPL. Take the one I've got now, it was advertised in Flight for some considerable length of time, as specifically requiring a pilot with 2000+ hours and a decent amount of M/E. The reason it was advertised in Flight is obviously because the boss had no CVs in hand that were suitable ... and yes he was looking very hard! Yes I'm sure he had more cvs from wet-behind-the-ears 200 hour FATPLs than he knew what to do with, but that was fundamentally not what the job required. He ended up in desperation, asking a few other pilots in the company to recommend any of their mates, I got a phone call in my little air ambulance job on the other side of the world, and the rest is history. IF he had had any suitable UK-based CVs in the pile, I'm sure it would have saved him a lot of hassle, but at the end of the day, he didn't. What was the guy supposed to do?
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Luke,
Exacly the theory that i want to use, when i start job hunting... Some say the world is too small some say its too big, but either way there is too much to see and enjoy... And great places to fly. 
Life's too short to spend it all in one location without seeing the world after all.
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quote:
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Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.
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"This is a particularly dumb statement and cant quite fathom out the reasons for it."
- No, not really, its what you're suggesting in the last analysis. Foreigners are employed in the UK as there are not enough qualified British pilots. You're continually banging on about your mates that can't get jobs. But what experience do they have? Do you know of any, for example antipodeans, with 200 hours who walked into a jet job?? No, nor me. Not everyone wants to employ people with low experience.
Also the "welcome if I'm welcome where they're from" thing isn't a runner. No doubt you would be if you could speak the local lingo. But they ain't gonna change so the likes of you have a chance. Why would they? You'd have more luck getting British airlines to conduct operations in Scots Gaelic, Welsh or Olde English as appropriate.
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Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This is a particularly dumb statement and cant quite fathom out the reasons for it."
- No, not really, its what you're suggesting in the last analysis. Foreigners are employed in the UK as there are not enough qualified British pilots. You're continually banging on about your mates that can't get jobs. But what experience do they have? Do you know of any, for example antipodeans, with 200 hours who walked into a jet job?? No, nor me. Not everyone wants to employ people with low experience.
Also the "welcome if I'm welcome where they're from" thing isn't a runner. No doubt you would be if you could speak the local lingo. But they ain't gonna change so the likes of you have a chance. Why would they? You'd have more luck getting British airlines to conduct operations in Scots Gaelic, Welsh or Olde English as appropriate.
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Ok people seem to have strong feelings on this but can anyone please provide actual examples of day-to-day operations with foreign pilots? I'm on another night shift and I've just heard a foreign pilot working on a Uk airline ask several times, "say again" to Servisair, purely because of a difficulty in understanding english. It was comical.
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say again" to Servisair, purely because of a difficulty in understanding english
Regards,
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Maximus old chap
Also the "welcome if I'm welcome where they're from" thing isn't a runner. No doubt you would be if you could speak the local lingo[/QUOTE
They speak perfect English in Aus/NZ/USA/RSA/Most of the Caribbean and Canada and im sure that the proportion of non locals is low compared to like for like comparison with UK airlines. These are some of the hardest countries for Brits of all experiences to get into.
Between 1400 and 2500 hrs MCC plenty and of Multi.
Not in this country but some have in Aus acxcording to my Aussie colleagues[QUOTE]]
Does that mean i have to learn every language for countries that i might want to work in or have CX,GF,EK all of which the local language is not English have got it wrong.
Fly half
The worst one's are the Eastern Europeans flying for FR. It's actually quite scary rather than comical as for some the clearances has to be repeated several times. And before you get on your high horses i know it's not all of you but definitely some of you
Also the "welcome if I'm welcome where they're from" thing isn't a runner. No doubt you would be if you could speak the local lingo[/QUOTE
They speak perfect English in Aus/NZ/USA/RSA/Most of the Caribbean and Canada and im sure that the proportion of non locals is low compared to like for like comparison with UK airlines. These are some of the hardest countries for Brits of all experiences to get into.
You're continually banging on about your mates that can't get jobs. But what experience do they have?
Do you know of any, for example antipodeans, with 200 hours who walked into a jet job?
But they ain't gonna change so the likes of you have a chance. Why would they?
Fly half
The worst one's are the Eastern Europeans flying for FR. It's actually quite scary rather than comical as for some the clearances has to be repeated several times. And before you get on your high horses i know it's not all of you but definitely some of you
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Flaps to 60
The racist ranting got you no where so now you are FR bashing. What an original way to try to now get support. If you are so against people stealing your jobs, will you be asking all the English with their 200 hours who no work out of GOW for Logan to return home too. Somehow I do no think you will.
Sometimes you just have to be realistic and realise that hey since you were not sponsored you took a gamble and well it has not paid off yet for you.
While you sit there at your ops job and ;listen to those nasty guys from East Europe in FR who you think are so thick that they can't speak English correctly. Well hey they are doing the job and you are not and I bet they can read PAN OPS in the ICAO language of Russian. And I may be wrong so feel free to correct me but FR is Irish not British so I guess you have not applied then since you feel so striong on the issue.
Get over it!
The racist ranting got you no where so now you are FR bashing. What an original way to try to now get support. If you are so against people stealing your jobs, will you be asking all the English with their 200 hours who no work out of GOW for Logan to return home too. Somehow I do no think you will.
Sometimes you just have to be realistic and realise that hey since you were not sponsored you took a gamble and well it has not paid off yet for you.
While you sit there at your ops job and ;listen to those nasty guys from East Europe in FR who you think are so thick that they can't speak English correctly. Well hey they are doing the job and you are not and I bet they can read PAN OPS in the ICAO language of Russian. And I may be wrong so feel free to correct me but FR is Irish not British so I guess you have not applied then since you feel so striong on the issue.
Get over it!
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"Does that mean i have to learn every language for countries that i might want to work in or have CX,GF,EK all of which the local language is not English have got it wrong.
"
CX, GF and EK are not valid arguments here. They speak English becuase, in the case of CX, it was of British nationality when founded and, GF and EK, employed mostly expats as the locals did not have the experience required. Incidentally, to follow your logic, the Bahrainis and people of the Emirates (not sure of collect word here!), must surely be rather miffed at the non-Arabic speaking of these airlines.
However, the likes of AF, KLM, LH etc etc etc, were set up in countries with enough native pilots available and did of course, in days before European integration, only (or mainly anyway?) employ locals. So quite obviously the language of choice was the local one. You don't really expect them to change all their operations to English just to accommodate non-native speakers now do you?
"
CX, GF and EK are not valid arguments here. They speak English becuase, in the case of CX, it was of British nationality when founded and, GF and EK, employed mostly expats as the locals did not have the experience required. Incidentally, to follow your logic, the Bahrainis and people of the Emirates (not sure of collect word here!), must surely be rather miffed at the non-Arabic speaking of these airlines.
However, the likes of AF, KLM, LH etc etc etc, were set up in countries with enough native pilots available and did of course, in days before European integration, only (or mainly anyway?) employ locals. So quite obviously the language of choice was the local one. You don't really expect them to change all their operations to English just to accommodate non-native speakers now do you?
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Angels
Oh dear you really should read the whole message and not take from it what you want just like the press.
Now time for some quotes.
Im not racist but just proud of being British and support my country. FR bashing is sometimes justified but if you read my post you would have seen that i was pointing out that some of the pilots they have employed English is not thier first language and like yesterday, ATC has to repeat messages more than once. Which in the busy London TMA is not what you want.
Not a well thought out statement and one you could have avoided if you read all of my posts.
.
Read someones profile as well as their post but for you i'll say it again. I HAVE A JOB FLYING.......IN THE UK......FOR A BRITISH AIRLINE. Is that clear now! Good!!
Somewhere on page one or two I mentioned that Irish airlines including EI was one of the only EU states that i have seen employing non nationals and have no problems with Irish pilots in this country.
I applied to both FR and EI sorry i didn't get EI but happy that i didn't FR.
Read some of the other posts like MAXIMUS. He doesn't agree with me but at least he has the intelligence to formulate a well thought out argument.
Maximus
Of course i dont it just seems to me that too many obstacles are placed in order to stop non nationals applying and getting the job in those airlines. Now i have learn't a few thing over these posts (except from Angels one Fife) mainly from Studi and im willing to conceed that there are foreigners in other airlines.
But it would be interesting to see what the percentages are in relation to those in UK airlines. Also why do they never advertise these jobs on either an EU or worldwide basis like BA BMI VS etc.
I remember reading an article sometime ago about CX and recruitment. They couldn't get enough locals to apply because flying is not considered to be an hounorable career as say a lawyer doctor or businessman hence the large influx of mainly Brits, Aussies and Kiwi's. Could this be the same in the UAE?
Oh dear you really should read the whole message and not take from it what you want just like the press.
Now time for some quotes.
The racist ranting got you no where so now you are FR bashing
will you be asking all the English with their 200 hours who no work out of GOW for Logan to return home too. Somehow I do no think you will
Sometimes you just have to be realistic and realise that hey since you were not sponsored you took a gamble and well it has not paid off yet for you
While you sit there at your ops job
And I may be wrong so feel free to correct me but FR is Irish not British so I guess you have not applied then since you feel so striong on the issue
I applied to both FR and EI sorry i didn't get EI but happy that i didn't FR.
Read some of the other posts like MAXIMUS. He doesn't agree with me but at least he has the intelligence to formulate a well thought out argument.
Maximus
Of course i dont it just seems to me that too many obstacles are placed in order to stop non nationals applying and getting the job in those airlines. Now i have learn't a few thing over these posts (except from Angels one Fife) mainly from Studi and im willing to conceed that there are foreigners in other airlines.
But it would be interesting to see what the percentages are in relation to those in UK airlines. Also why do they never advertise these jobs on either an EU or worldwide basis like BA BMI VS etc.
I remember reading an article sometime ago about CX and recruitment. They couldn't get enough locals to apply because flying is not considered to be an hounorable career as say a lawyer doctor or businessman hence the large influx of mainly Brits, Aussies and Kiwi's. Could this be the same in the UAE?
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As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong in principle with LH, IB, AZ, etc. looking after their own - something that's steadily going out of the window in my company. Irish pilots are actually in the minority there and the vast majority of new pilots are Dutch, Belgian, German, Scandinavian, etc.
It is unfair seeing Irish guys/gals wanting jobs which are being snapped up by foreigners - surely your own should be the first port of call - if that makes me a racist then so be it.
While we have a vast mix of nationalities, it is frustrating to see how easily foreigners get in but for the likes of myself it is virtually impossible to work for LH, IB, AZ, etc, as they are primarily looking after their own. The argument about having to speak the lingo, as I see it, is irrelevant. The operation is conducted in English and as a result everybody speaks more or less fluent English.
As far as LH are concerned, it is a requirement to have a German licence so even JAR goes out of the window... - what hope do any foreigners have there? Anyone able to clarify?
It is unfair seeing Irish guys/gals wanting jobs which are being snapped up by foreigners - surely your own should be the first port of call - if that makes me a racist then so be it.
While we have a vast mix of nationalities, it is frustrating to see how easily foreigners get in but for the likes of myself it is virtually impossible to work for LH, IB, AZ, etc, as they are primarily looking after their own. The argument about having to speak the lingo, as I see it, is irrelevant. The operation is conducted in English and as a result everybody speaks more or less fluent English.
As far as LH are concerned, it is a requirement to have a German licence so even JAR goes out of the window... - what hope do any foreigners have there? Anyone able to clarify?
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I'm not trying to slate you or LH for the way things are done there - I was merely pointing out that all that JAR has done is open up the English speaking job market to foreigners whilst this has not reciprocated the equal chance of employment in the EU for Irish/British citizens.
Your example of LH being a German company and being run the German way went out of the window a few years ago when LH Cargo were desperate for crew and took on several Spanish direct entry captains whose German was non-existant.
Germany may have JAR implemented but that doesn't stop German employers still requiring a German issued license along with the long range theory cert.
Glass houses and stones spring to mind.....
Your example of LH being a German company and being run the German way went out of the window a few years ago when LH Cargo were desperate for crew and took on several Spanish direct entry captains whose German was non-existant.
Germany may have JAR implemented but that doesn't stop German employers still requiring a German issued license along with the long range theory cert.
Glass houses and stones spring to mind.....
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You obviously don't have a clue. So please stay where you are and shut up.
I did have some respect for you earlier but comments like this are unbecoming of that expected for a future captain. FlyingIrishman is entitled to his opinion so relax its only a debate.
DLH is a German company, it has a German history, the biggest single group of passengers are Germans, most of the employees are German. So the corporate culture is German, you either adapt or stay away, easy.
Germany may have JAR implemented but that doesn't stop German employers still requiring a German issued license along with the long range theory cert.
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Studi
Read my last but one post I have conceeded that some foreign pilots are employed by some airlines but i still see that the flow is fairly onesided.
When and where did LH advertise for these cadets because i sure didn't see it on an international or even EU wide basis as BA and BMI etc did in Flight.
Your right until i see what i consider a more balanced cross border exchange of recruitment my views probably wont change but the debate has been a good one. Im off flying now see ya!
Ps. Respect on the apology it takes a big man to do that and something you dont see to often on this site.
Read my last but one post I have conceeded that some foreign pilots are employed by some airlines but i still see that the flow is fairly onesided.
When and where did LH advertise for these cadets because i sure didn't see it on an international or even EU wide basis as BA and BMI etc did in Flight.
Your right until i see what i consider a more balanced cross border exchange of recruitment my views probably wont change but the debate has been a good one. Im off flying now see ya!
Ps. Respect on the apology it takes a big man to do that and something you dont see to often on this site.
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Fto60:
I agree with you that as all the pilots in the likes of LH etc speak English, it should be possible to speak only English and work in these companies. In an ideal world, this would happen.
I also agree that the Germans and the French abolutely do not recognise non-national JAA licences (this is undisputed fact, Studi et al). Which should be, and possibly is, illegal.
However, the thrust of my argument is that it is unrealistic to expect these companies to change to English operation. For example, in AF, everything other than comms (outside France) is in French. They are not, no chance, ever, going to change EVERYTHING into English. I presume others are the same, so regrettably we must live with it. Now this issue of the French talking French to French ATC, and the appalling radio discipline of AF, is for another thread...
FlyingIrishman:
I am not sure it is a case of LH, IB etc looking after their own per se, instead of the fact that their own are somewhat better at the local language than foreigners.
In a little thread creep, if you will forgive me, I once seem to recall thinking, due to your impassioned defence of the methods of a certain Irish loco, that you were a highly placed HR official is said company. If you are indeed a pilot at said company, which seems likely from reading your post, what now is your opinion of said company in light of recent events?
I agree with you that as all the pilots in the likes of LH etc speak English, it should be possible to speak only English and work in these companies. In an ideal world, this would happen.
I also agree that the Germans and the French abolutely do not recognise non-national JAA licences (this is undisputed fact, Studi et al). Which should be, and possibly is, illegal.
However, the thrust of my argument is that it is unrealistic to expect these companies to change to English operation. For example, in AF, everything other than comms (outside France) is in French. They are not, no chance, ever, going to change EVERYTHING into English. I presume others are the same, so regrettably we must live with it. Now this issue of the French talking French to French ATC, and the appalling radio discipline of AF, is for another thread...
FlyingIrishman:
I am not sure it is a case of LH, IB etc looking after their own per se, instead of the fact that their own are somewhat better at the local language than foreigners.
In a little thread creep, if you will forgive me, I once seem to recall thinking, due to your impassioned defence of the methods of a certain Irish loco, that you were a highly placed HR official is said company. If you are indeed a pilot at said company, which seems likely from reading your post, what now is your opinion of said company in light of recent events?
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I have been watching this post evolve over the last fortnight or so with great anticipation, watching the " two sides" bat it out!
I think it is fair to say that there clearly are proportionately more foreign pilots working for UK based carriers than there are reciprocated.. c'est la vie, irrespective of whether they are antipodians, continentals or others. Clearly Commonwelath pilots should have more rights to work in the UK first, but that is surely another thread.
It appears to me that your average Johnny Foreigner will have a better understanding of the English language than Dagenham Dave would have of any langauge other than English. However, it is imperative that these 'foreigners' so to speak have an understanding of English anyway, whereas lets be honest if you can find a flying job in the UK bo11ox to bothering to learn another language... perhaps that is our (BRITISH) fatal flaw, or maybe just mine!
I too complain of the lack of standardisation of foreign aircrew recruitment, but with respect to Europe, it is the fault of JAR. It is weak, just like its bigger brother if you like, the EU. It stands for nothing.. we abide by the ANO, not JAROPS, the ANO is legally binding and that's that, this is why the French et al get away with there contradictory practices.
But am I angry with the foreign pilots working in the UK? Air France? BA? NO!
It is intrinsically a fault within our government for being weak.. you see it in aviation, European politics, control of national borders etc etc etc (I could bore u lot if I went on any further and I probably already am!)
BLAIM the Government: I hear so many Britsh pilots of all ages moaning about these issues but there only a few answers to the dilemma.
1) Put up with it
2) Go abroad, if u can, and then... stay there
3) Leave aviation permanently
4) Or vote the government out, stay cool and be patient for that elusive flying job in the finest imperialistic country ever to live.. yes it may be full or criminals, high taxes, sh1t transport, crappy laws, but it's BRITISH and you're still here and u know it!
I think it is fair to say that there clearly are proportionately more foreign pilots working for UK based carriers than there are reciprocated.. c'est la vie, irrespective of whether they are antipodians, continentals or others. Clearly Commonwelath pilots should have more rights to work in the UK first, but that is surely another thread.
It appears to me that your average Johnny Foreigner will have a better understanding of the English language than Dagenham Dave would have of any langauge other than English. However, it is imperative that these 'foreigners' so to speak have an understanding of English anyway, whereas lets be honest if you can find a flying job in the UK bo11ox to bothering to learn another language... perhaps that is our (BRITISH) fatal flaw, or maybe just mine!
I too complain of the lack of standardisation of foreign aircrew recruitment, but with respect to Europe, it is the fault of JAR. It is weak, just like its bigger brother if you like, the EU. It stands for nothing.. we abide by the ANO, not JAROPS, the ANO is legally binding and that's that, this is why the French et al get away with there contradictory practices.
But am I angry with the foreign pilots working in the UK? Air France? BA? NO!
It is intrinsically a fault within our government for being weak.. you see it in aviation, European politics, control of national borders etc etc etc (I could bore u lot if I went on any further and I probably already am!)
BLAIM the Government: I hear so many Britsh pilots of all ages moaning about these issues but there only a few answers to the dilemma.
1) Put up with it
2) Go abroad, if u can, and then... stay there
3) Leave aviation permanently
4) Or vote the government out, stay cool and be patient for that elusive flying job in the finest imperialistic country ever to live.. yes it may be full or criminals, high taxes, sh1t transport, crappy laws, but it's BRITISH and you're still here and u know it!
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Look at airlines in the Gulf - Emirates, Gulf Air, Qatar Airways and Etihad. If you are a national in UAE or Qatar for example then imagine what it feels like to possibly have the whole crew on a flight to be foreign! I flew back from the Middle East yesterday with a Gulf based airline and a hostie who was from the Far East was speaking to a Arabic lady in English because the hostie could obviously not speak the native Arabic lingo. Maybe the pax felt insulted when having this on the national airline of her country but on the other hand probably not!!!