need a lucky break
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need a lucky break
As my user name (dodo_uk) indicates, I am flightless and heading for extinction at the age of 34, and I live in the UK.
The bottom line is, I really want to fly. I could finance my way through my PPL, but I could not justify doing so unless I knew I could go further and make a career out of it, and turn the cost into an investment.
I have flown as passenger in fixed wings, choppers and balloons - and crashed in a balloon too (experiencing ground rush while packed into a hamper is not much fun). I also love flying RC planes, simulators and so on.
I have had one trial lesson in a Cessna which confirmed my enthusiasm to get my wings. I realise that the reality of flying for a living, probably isn't as fun or as glamorous as the fantasy, but it would suit me down to the ground and up again!
Can anyone please give me any pointers here. Is it possible for me to get some sort of sponsored training at the tender age of 34? What are the chances of me being able to make a career as a pilot now? I would be happy with any sort of pilot job, flying any sort of fixed wing.
Training to commercial standards and qualifications at my local flight school would cost me about £40,000 which is way beyond my reach. At a push I could maybe cover half that cost, but only if there was 99% chance of making a living out of it in the long run.
The bottom line is, I really want to fly. I could finance my way through my PPL, but I could not justify doing so unless I knew I could go further and make a career out of it, and turn the cost into an investment.
I have flown as passenger in fixed wings, choppers and balloons - and crashed in a balloon too (experiencing ground rush while packed into a hamper is not much fun). I also love flying RC planes, simulators and so on.
I have had one trial lesson in a Cessna which confirmed my enthusiasm to get my wings. I realise that the reality of flying for a living, probably isn't as fun or as glamorous as the fantasy, but it would suit me down to the ground and up again!
Can anyone please give me any pointers here. Is it possible for me to get some sort of sponsored training at the tender age of 34? What are the chances of me being able to make a career as a pilot now? I would be happy with any sort of pilot job, flying any sort of fixed wing.
Training to commercial standards and qualifications at my local flight school would cost me about £40,000 which is way beyond my reach. At a push I could maybe cover half that cost, but only if there was 99% chance of making a living out of it in the long run.
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i'm not extremely clued up on sponsorships, but at 34 i would think the chances are slim-please correct me if i'm wrong! However anything is possible and if you want it enough- LIVE THE DREAM. I met a guy who was a university lecturer at 40, he quit and started a CPL. At 47 he is now a captain with a regional airline after years of instructing and air taxi work. Being an instructor is definately viable and is alot of fun. I know it's hard but if you want to do it, bite the bullet. It's better to regret things you've done rather than haven't.
Nobody has answered so I'll give it a go although the results may not be wholly palatable. You are extremely unlikely to find anyone who will sponsor you. Sponsorship schemes are very thin on the ground at the moment and they will inevitably be awarded to the young thruster who has had, for instance, an RAF scholarship or flown gliders. At 34 yrs old, it is nigh on impossible for you to get sponsored training.
Next issue is cost. If you could raise £40 000 you would have a commercial pilot's licence (CPL) with instrument rating (IR) commonly referred to as a frozen ATPL (fATPL) and about 250 hrs. Of these perhaps 30 hrs will be in multi-engine aircraft. For this sort of money your only option is modular which will probably take you a couple of years to complete. In this time, you won't be earning so you need to budget for living costs on top of the cost of the training. You might decide that an integrated course is better suited but then, I believe, you're looking at £60 000+.
Now, you will be right at the bottom of the pond in terms of job applicants for the airlines. Biz jet operators seem to require somewhere in the order of 1500 hrs. Air taxi operators generally require 700 hrs for commercial instrument flight rules (IFR) work which leaves instructing. This will cost you an extra £5 000; however, the rewards for General Aviation (GA) instruction are very poor indeed.
This all assumes that you can pass the exams and have some aptitude for the flying. If not, your multi-engine IR is going to cost you significantly more than your "budget" of £40 000 would suggest.
All a bit gloomy but they are the facts (or as close to them as I can project).
I have gone through the modular route but I was in a well-paid job which left me plenty of time to study. A friend let me fly his aircraft in the US for fuel only so hr building cost me $10-$15 per hour. Living in the US meant that my CPL was cheap to complete in Florida since air fares and hire cars weren't a factor. I converted a US IR to a JAR/UK IR which saved a substantial amount of money. I also work in aviation so most of the ATPL exams were relatively straightforward. Finally, and most importantly, I now work in a very high profile aviation environment where I get the chance to meet the great and the good so even with my low hrs I am moderately optimistic of finding gainful employment.
Three final bits of advice:
1. Get your Class 1 medical. It's all pointless if you can't pass the medical.
2. Buy Clive Hughes "Guide to Becoming a Commercial Pilot."
3. Have a look at www.ppjn.com for salaries and pre-requisites for interview.
Good luck,
HP
Next issue is cost. If you could raise £40 000 you would have a commercial pilot's licence (CPL) with instrument rating (IR) commonly referred to as a frozen ATPL (fATPL) and about 250 hrs. Of these perhaps 30 hrs will be in multi-engine aircraft. For this sort of money your only option is modular which will probably take you a couple of years to complete. In this time, you won't be earning so you need to budget for living costs on top of the cost of the training. You might decide that an integrated course is better suited but then, I believe, you're looking at £60 000+.
Now, you will be right at the bottom of the pond in terms of job applicants for the airlines. Biz jet operators seem to require somewhere in the order of 1500 hrs. Air taxi operators generally require 700 hrs for commercial instrument flight rules (IFR) work which leaves instructing. This will cost you an extra £5 000; however, the rewards for General Aviation (GA) instruction are very poor indeed.
This all assumes that you can pass the exams and have some aptitude for the flying. If not, your multi-engine IR is going to cost you significantly more than your "budget" of £40 000 would suggest.
All a bit gloomy but they are the facts (or as close to them as I can project).
I have gone through the modular route but I was in a well-paid job which left me plenty of time to study. A friend let me fly his aircraft in the US for fuel only so hr building cost me $10-$15 per hour. Living in the US meant that my CPL was cheap to complete in Florida since air fares and hire cars weren't a factor. I converted a US IR to a JAR/UK IR which saved a substantial amount of money. I also work in aviation so most of the ATPL exams were relatively straightforward. Finally, and most importantly, I now work in a very high profile aviation environment where I get the chance to meet the great and the good so even with my low hrs I am moderately optimistic of finding gainful employment.
Three final bits of advice:
1. Get your Class 1 medical. It's all pointless if you can't pass the medical.
2. Buy Clive Hughes "Guide to Becoming a Commercial Pilot."
3. Have a look at www.ppjn.com for salaries and pre-requisites for interview.
Good luck,
HP
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I'm 37 and inching headlong into it too (final ATPL test soon)). Other possible courses of action are validating you have your brain wired up for the job by doing some kind of assessment test. The one I did was the GAPAN test (www.gapan.org). As well satisfying yourself that you have the required aptitude, this may be seen favourably by employers...but don't hold me to that.
Keep an eye out for www.malgus.com. They are able to offer discounted integrated courses providing you pass their assessment. If you have a GAPAN "high-average" or above score then you get to skip the stage 1 assessment and move to stage 2.
Keep an eye out for www.malgus.com. They are able to offer discounted integrated courses providing you pass their assessment. If you have a GAPAN "high-average" or above score then you get to skip the stage 1 assessment and move to stage 2.
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I think you have really answered your own question.
"At a push I could maybe cover half that cost, but only if there was 99% chance of making a living out of it in the long run."
There isn't, or anything like it. So if that is an accurate appraisal then best you forget it.
"The bottom line is, I really want to fly. I could finance my way through my PPL, but I could not justify doing so unless I knew I could go further and make a career out of it, and turn the cost into an investment."
Many people do have an ambition to fly. However very few go on to do it commercially. Given the relatively low cost of a PPL compared to a professional licence achieving the former is not a great financial risk for many people. In any event it allows you to achieve your goal of flying. If you can only "justify" it by incorporating it into an investment in a further career then it is rather like saying I can only afford to gamble if I win the jackpot. My advice would be don't do it under those constraints.
I don't think your age is prohibitive although it obviously gets more difficult when you are competing with younger aspiring applicants. As others will tell you sponsorships are few and far between, even then most will only provide a partial assistance towards the licences.
In reality there is a high degree of financial risk with embarking on a career in civil aviation. You only have to search through these threads to become rapidly aware of that fact. The costs of obtaining a licence are very much ball park costs as the real (often very much higher) costs depend on an enormous variety of things. This is a career with many expensive requirements. These include obtaining expensive licences and ratings. Maintaining those licences and ratings. Strict medical criteria. Maintaining those medical criteria.
Most people who do obtain their professional licence and having struggled to obtain their qualifications do not then walk into the right hand seat of a well paid airline job. The reality of the marketplace then becomes critically apparant. For a few luck will be on their side. For a few more, less desirable jobs will open up. For many it is a case of taking any job ( flying or not and often not), to keep the wolves from the door. A few having obtained the qualifications will be unable to maintain the licences or medicals and will be unable to advance further. Many people will be saddled with debt from their training and will have to deal with this burden whatever the outcome. I would reiterate that a few are fortunate and many work long and hard to get a foothold into this industry. Most pilots would tell you that this is not the career it once was. Salaries and other terms and conditions have been steadily eroded as the industry has evolved in recent years. The glamour and kudos that might have been associated with an airline pilots job 30 years ago or even more recently is certainly heavily tarnished in most of todays industry.
This is an industry that still attracts many candidates, and many do complete the difficult requirements often through financial risk and sacrifice. The younger you are the easier it is to absorb the risks and the less existing commitments you are likely to have. On the other hand the older you are ( within reason) the better placed financially you are likely to be. The more maturity you are likely to posess and the better your assesment of risk is likely to be. Nevertheless the odds are always going to be time weighted towards the younger applicant.
Only you can decide what is sensible and right for you, but be under no illusion, there are major costs and risks involved. The only thing that is guaranteed is that there are absolutely no guarantees !
"At a push I could maybe cover half that cost, but only if there was 99% chance of making a living out of it in the long run."
There isn't, or anything like it. So if that is an accurate appraisal then best you forget it.
"The bottom line is, I really want to fly. I could finance my way through my PPL, but I could not justify doing so unless I knew I could go further and make a career out of it, and turn the cost into an investment."
Many people do have an ambition to fly. However very few go on to do it commercially. Given the relatively low cost of a PPL compared to a professional licence achieving the former is not a great financial risk for many people. In any event it allows you to achieve your goal of flying. If you can only "justify" it by incorporating it into an investment in a further career then it is rather like saying I can only afford to gamble if I win the jackpot. My advice would be don't do it under those constraints.
I don't think your age is prohibitive although it obviously gets more difficult when you are competing with younger aspiring applicants. As others will tell you sponsorships are few and far between, even then most will only provide a partial assistance towards the licences.
In reality there is a high degree of financial risk with embarking on a career in civil aviation. You only have to search through these threads to become rapidly aware of that fact. The costs of obtaining a licence are very much ball park costs as the real (often very much higher) costs depend on an enormous variety of things. This is a career with many expensive requirements. These include obtaining expensive licences and ratings. Maintaining those licences and ratings. Strict medical criteria. Maintaining those medical criteria.
Most people who do obtain their professional licence and having struggled to obtain their qualifications do not then walk into the right hand seat of a well paid airline job. The reality of the marketplace then becomes critically apparant. For a few luck will be on their side. For a few more, less desirable jobs will open up. For many it is a case of taking any job ( flying or not and often not), to keep the wolves from the door. A few having obtained the qualifications will be unable to maintain the licences or medicals and will be unable to advance further. Many people will be saddled with debt from their training and will have to deal with this burden whatever the outcome. I would reiterate that a few are fortunate and many work long and hard to get a foothold into this industry. Most pilots would tell you that this is not the career it once was. Salaries and other terms and conditions have been steadily eroded as the industry has evolved in recent years. The glamour and kudos that might have been associated with an airline pilots job 30 years ago or even more recently is certainly heavily tarnished in most of todays industry.
This is an industry that still attracts many candidates, and many do complete the difficult requirements often through financial risk and sacrifice. The younger you are the easier it is to absorb the risks and the less existing commitments you are likely to have. On the other hand the older you are ( within reason) the better placed financially you are likely to be. The more maturity you are likely to posess and the better your assesment of risk is likely to be. Nevertheless the odds are always going to be time weighted towards the younger applicant.
Only you can decide what is sensible and right for you, but be under no illusion, there are major costs and risks involved. The only thing that is guaranteed is that there are absolutely no guarantees !
Last edited by Bealzebub; 26th Jun 2004 at 14:18.
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Guys thank you very much for the advice and comments. Some of it positive and some not so.
I know that I can fly a plane physically, but perhaps my mental ability to make rapid mathematical calculations while under pressure would not be so hot.
I think on reflection, I will be better off getting my PPL and IR and stick to being a pleasure pilot (safer for the travelling public too). I know that pleasure is something that I am very good at, and highly qualified in!
I wish you all the best of luck and success as qualifying and qualified commercial pilots.
Dead stick..........
I know that I can fly a plane physically, but perhaps my mental ability to make rapid mathematical calculations while under pressure would not be so hot.
I think on reflection, I will be better off getting my PPL and IR and stick to being a pleasure pilot (safer for the travelling public too). I know that pleasure is something that I am very good at, and highly qualified in!
I wish you all the best of luck and success as qualifying and qualified commercial pilots.
Dead stick..........
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Let the first post commence.....
Hi dodo_uk. I was very interested by your thread, as I am in a very similar quandary, although I'm (just) shy of your age at a mature 26
. Having left a respected UK university with a degree in electronic engineering and spent 5 years in the design of silicon chips, I've just recently persuaded myself that I might not have made the best career choice. I've always entertained the idea of commercial aviation, but just thought it a pipe-dream which was financially out of reach.
Now I have sufficient savings to fund myself through a PPL and partially through CPL, I was going to bite the bullet.
I have bags of natural aptitude and tenacity (and modesty
), but is that really enough to make it through to being a commercial pilot at little risk? It seems maybe not from some of the comments in this thread!
Ah well. I think like you, I'll just make it a hobby for now, get a PPL + IR, and see where the flow takes me........designing chips aint all that bad and someones gotta do it.
Hi dodo_uk. I was very interested by your thread, as I am in a very similar quandary, although I'm (just) shy of your age at a mature 26
. Having left a respected UK university with a degree in electronic engineering and spent 5 years in the design of silicon chips, I've just recently persuaded myself that I might not have made the best career choice. I've always entertained the idea of commercial aviation, but just thought it a pipe-dream which was financially out of reach.Now I have sufficient savings to fund myself through a PPL and partially through CPL, I was going to bite the bullet.
I have bags of natural aptitude and tenacity (and modesty
), but is that really enough to make it through to being a commercial pilot at little risk? It seems maybe not from some of the comments in this thread!Ah well. I think like you, I'll just make it a hobby for now, get a PPL + IR, and see where the flow takes me........designing chips aint all that bad and someones gotta do it.
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lemoncurd,
Don't tar your self with my messy brush! At 26 I would say you have a lot more to offer than me. You are mature, yet still have plenty of flying time ahead of you. You also have a university degree. I don't. In fact you wouldn't even wipe your bottom on my record of academic achievements. Despite my expensive schooling, I managed to escape with just 2 scruffy, small pieces of paper that prove how much fun I was having at the neighbouring girl's school when I should have been studying!
I may currently have my own business, but I am still a drop out, and drop outs don't belong on flight decks.
If anything is stopping you, it's your mature and Wise outlook on life which gives you a stronger grip on reality than some of the young, high flying hopefuls that are here. Wisdom is your asset. Life experience helps you to keep your feet on the ground, and your head out of the clouds, but don't keep your feet too firmly on the ground, or your head too far from the clouds, as I think you still have a good chance! Don't give up on my account.
Don't tar your self with my messy brush! At 26 I would say you have a lot more to offer than me. You are mature, yet still have plenty of flying time ahead of you. You also have a university degree. I don't. In fact you wouldn't even wipe your bottom on my record of academic achievements. Despite my expensive schooling, I managed to escape with just 2 scruffy, small pieces of paper that prove how much fun I was having at the neighbouring girl's school when I should have been studying!
I may currently have my own business, but I am still a drop out, and drop outs don't belong on flight decks.
If anything is stopping you, it's your mature and Wise outlook on life which gives you a stronger grip on reality than some of the young, high flying hopefuls that are here. Wisdom is your asset. Life experience helps you to keep your feet on the ground, and your head out of the clouds, but don't keep your feet too firmly on the ground, or your head too far from the clouds, as I think you still have a good chance! Don't give up on my account.
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There is no such thing as a secure route to a flying job in the UK. All wannabes who start down this rocky road have no guarantees that there will ever be a job for them at the end of it and, sadly, for many there isn't.
This is not a field to enter for someone who must get a job at the end of the line - as several contributors here can tell you! The risks are such that it's inevitable that most in training are young, single and have no commitments beyond feeding themselves - except for the lucky (very) few who have made their fortunes elsewhere before entering flying. Sponsorships are only available to a very small group of people who, amongst other qualities, generally must be less than 27 years of age when they enter training. Such sponsorships as there are still require substantial financial risk from the student.
My advice would be that you should avoid going down the commercial flying route unless you have very clear goals, and you are prepared to undergo whatever hardships may befall you on the way. For every success story you read here, there are many failures that you rarely get to hear about. If failure would cost you or your family too much, your course is clear. For those who can accept the risks - and can deal with failure - come on in! For those who succeed, it's still a very rewarding career. For the rest, recreational flying can be a great deal more fun than yet another early MAN-ALI!
Scroggs
This is not a field to enter for someone who must get a job at the end of the line - as several contributors here can tell you! The risks are such that it's inevitable that most in training are young, single and have no commitments beyond feeding themselves - except for the lucky (very) few who have made their fortunes elsewhere before entering flying. Sponsorships are only available to a very small group of people who, amongst other qualities, generally must be less than 27 years of age when they enter training. Such sponsorships as there are still require substantial financial risk from the student.
My advice would be that you should avoid going down the commercial flying route unless you have very clear goals, and you are prepared to undergo whatever hardships may befall you on the way. For every success story you read here, there are many failures that you rarely get to hear about. If failure would cost you or your family too much, your course is clear. For those who can accept the risks - and can deal with failure - come on in! For those who succeed, it's still a very rewarding career. For the rest, recreational flying can be a great deal more fun than yet another early MAN-ALI!
Scroggs
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Once again scroggs sums it up
I'm 33 next week.
Former bus driver
I went to a mixed school, so no wall jumping for me to see the girlies behind the bike shed during lesson time.
I have done my research, been honest with myself, thought it over, had a beer or ten, gone on holiday, had another beer, and have decided that I can't see the rest of my days on this earth out without at least giving it my best shot.
I now have a very clear realistic goal of where I aim aiming to end up. But in truth I could, and probably will, end up somewhere totally different.
IT IS POSSIBLE!, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise, but it's a million miles from easy, as you will see many here have said, you have got to have the confidence, determination and self belief to succeed, especially when you are the wrong side of 30. It's one monster project to manage. Lets just hope it's worth it...
Best of luck with whatever you decide is best for your future.
OTB
I'm 33 next week.
Former bus driver
I went to a mixed school, so no wall jumping for me to see the girlies behind the bike shed during lesson time.
I have done my research, been honest with myself, thought it over, had a beer or ten, gone on holiday, had another beer, and have decided that I can't see the rest of my days on this earth out without at least giving it my best shot.
I now have a very clear realistic goal of where I aim aiming to end up. But in truth I could, and probably will, end up somewhere totally different.
IT IS POSSIBLE!, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise, but it's a million miles from easy, as you will see many here have said, you have got to have the confidence, determination and self belief to succeed, especially when you are the wrong side of 30. It's one monster project to manage. Lets just hope it's worth it...
Best of luck with whatever you decide is best for your future.
OTB
Last edited by onthebuses; 1st Jul 2004 at 13:18.
