Is this discrimination?

[November Whiskey]

I’ve just been browsing PPJN.com and things definitely seem to be picking up which is obviously great news for all. However, I feel the need to discuss the subject of discrimination against modular students!

Let me say now that this is not about whether integrated is better than modular, nor is it about slating FTO’s and their marketing strategies etc. My gripe is that there are several airlines that clearly discriminate against pilots who have gained their licence via the modular route (myself included, obviously). We all understand that requirements for type ratings and thousands of hours etc. are valid ways of thinning down job applicants and gaining experienced pilots, but I cannot see why anyone of us should be excluded from job opportunities because they (for whatever reasons) chose modular rather than integrated.

If you put the theoretical concept of two people with exactly the same professional qualifications into other scenarios you could come up with racial discrimination or sexual discrimination. You may say these are far more serious, but if you’ve worked hard over a number of years, made sacrifices and not to mention spending in excess of 40k, I think that’s pretty serious too.

I would appreciate a healthy debate on this one. And please let me reiterate that I have no axe to grind against integrated courses or students…

Good luck to all!

NW

[scroggs]

There are a few employers who still think that modular students = the old self-improvers, and integrated students = the old 509ers. In those days, there were fairly good reasons for an airline looking for low-houred pilots to prefer the 509 product (though there was plenty of debate about that at the time!), but there is absolutey no excuse fore it now.

NW Perhaps you could do us all a favour and name the airlines that you have found who are peddling this arrant nonsense - I have no problems writing to them to ask how they justify themselves!

Scroggs

[redsnail]

I vaguely remember speaking to BA City Express a while ago and they did ask if I was a CAP 509er.

[November Whiskey]

Scroggs,

Many thanks for that. In all honesty I was in two minds about typing this post as I did not want to seem bitter. I respect all pilots and wannabees alike, whichever way they trained. I just like an even playing field wherever possible, it's hard enough when you at the bottom of the heap!

Here are the offenders, details are from PPJN.com:

BMI Regional

F/O
Integrated course. Otherwise, 1500hours, MCC, significant multi time, etc.



GB Airways

F/O

Cadet - Jerez or Oxford ab initio graduates with 200 hours.



Flybe

F/O
Low hours F/O's (requirement of 40 during 2004) are only taken from Oxford Aviation and at present are all going onto Q400 fleet.


Give 'em hell!

[trainer too 2]

Nonsense, an airline can and should be able to hire who the like. Prior to giving you the keys to drive their toys they have a certain obligation that you are up to the job. Your piece of paper stating CPL is part of the selection but if they can add on more certainties they should!

They can say give me a piece of paper that states that you have passed a test. Or say I want you to have passed the test AND attended a certain school as we have good references from it.

If I am in the states I can get an MBA from Harvard or one by mail order for "work experience". They both have the same words: MBA on it but the second one means nothing.

The same reasoning would be for food: why should I pay GBP100 at chez Franz for food while McD who also sells food only want GBP3.95 for a Big Meal: also food!!

Please note I agree that maybe the person outside the integrated course might be better than a particular person from an integrated course but the airline is bettering the odds for themselves with what they consider proven concepts

[November Whiskey]

trainer too 2

Of course airlines should be able to stipulate their own requirements, what we're talking about here is discriminating between two identical licences which were gained by flying an identical syllabus, with an identical flight test format. Your two examples talk about comparing completely different things, or are you saying that a modular frozen ATPL can be purchased over the internet? If so can I get a refund from my training, and what's the URL?


NW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Indeed - Modular students get more hours. A reference from a large Integrated FTO is likely to be made after a cursory glance at the old training notes by someone who never met the student.

Whilst at a small FTO they are more likely to be referenced by someone who actually flew with and remembers them. Also its far easier to hide being a prat on a course of 12 in a school of 120 than it is on a course of 2 in and school of 20...

The simple answer is laziness and history. Its easy to call up a large FTO who have people on the ends of phone waiting and historically thats whats been done.

Its wrong and people are starting to spot that. But it takes a while - bless.

Cheers

WWW

[AIRWAY]

Morning,

I definately couldnt afford an integrated course like many others, so my option was modular, and to tell you the truth im very happy, currently not owning a single pence to any bank and enjoying flying. And if i had to choose this route even if i had 70k i would do it with all again.

Now for NW's comment, i do agree with his view there is no reason why integrated should get better treatment than modular if they are both the same burocracy still rules the world

[Leo45]

As a former instructor in one of these major FTOs, I can say that WWW is absolutely spot on.

Modular or Integrated should not be treated differently and the airlines should talk to the instructors rather than let a "panel" from the FTOs in question decide who should be shortlisted.

But,obviously, it won't happen as this industry is full of prejudice for reasons that defy logic..

[no sponsor]

Scroggs,

I think it would be very helpful if you could write the letter. I would happy to review a draft, if required.

It's quite depressing to read these comments when I've been slogging away for the past five months on my day job and Bristol's notes.

I could afford the integrated route, but decided on the modular. I really hope this is not the case.

[hifive11]

First of all everything you read on PPJN is not necessarily totally accurate. I have proved this on a couple of occasions when contacting an airline direct and quoting something from PPJN. The reaction has been surprise (genuine or not I don’t know).

I know for certain that with regards to Flybe, they have recently employed from all different backgrounds, modular, integrated and the integrated not from Oxford.

The entries on PPJN are kindly made by pilots who give up their time to help but possibly are not always up to date with the latest recruitment parameters due to work etc.

Secondly, two of those airlines you have mentioned have sent their cadets to certain schools so know exactly what they are going to get. This is not necessarily right because I agree that at the end of the day we all end up with the same bit of paper. However, as I am sure every wannabe knows, there isn’t an HR department in any airline that isn’t snowed under with applications. If they see a student from an FTO they use, know and trust I would think it likely that application may be put forward for serious consideration, due purely to lack of time on their part.

Even with all the legislation around about discrimination, I firmly believe that there are airlines whose confidential internal policy is that they don’t want someone from such and such ethnic background, they don’t want someone over the age of 30 that can’t be moulded, they don’t want females as they all leave and have kids. This is understandable even if it is wrong, lets face it they are in business to make money. They will choose the most economical and convenient route for them and if they can get away with it, they will, but they certainly should not advertise it.

I agree, there should be a level playing field but the world is not a perfect place.

[scroggs]

Highfive is right - PPJN is only as good as the information it's given by contributors, and that information may well be wrong. It's also true to say that airlines can specify what they like when deciding who to employ - subject to legal limits on race, creed, sex and, soon, age. However, those that specify integrated over modular are perpetuating prejudices borne of the old CAP509 qualification system, and it's time that they were disabused of this nonsense because it goes against the entire point of the integrated/modular training scheme - which was developed to ensure that the product was the same whichever route you chose.

I am quite happy to write to airlines to ask them about their recruiting policies and to get them to justify the stipulations they make, If I get any quotable answers I'll happily post them here.

Scroggs

[AIRWAY]

Scroggs,

Thats very nice of you, please do let us know.

Many Thanks

[Flying Farmer]

Scroggs,

Many thanks, I am betting many will be interested in the replies.

As an afterthought some Airlines have, so I hear and may not be true, an unwritten policy of not recruiting candidates over a certain age.

Would anyone care to comment on this, not the legalities as that has been done to death, but in general. Is it a common policy, if so would like to know who not to apply to !! stamps are costing me a fortune.

Flying Farmer

[Flap45]

From the new British Airways CitiExpress Recruitment website:

www.bacitiexpressjobs.com

Applications are also welcome from non-type rated pilots who have in excess of 1000 hours flying experience or have attended a CAA or JAA full-time integrated or part-time modular flying course and have a minimum of 50 hours flying experience in the last 12 months.

[G-LOST]

I can comment about bmi regional as I may or may not have provided the information for the update on PPJN after speaking to the recruitment Captain a few days ago.

The company has 'suffered' a great deal of movement in recent months and simply seeks to minimise further losses by taking on people who are unlikely to leave for a few years. For that reason alone, they have targeted very low houred pilots as in their view these individuals are likely to stay for at least 3 years, possibly 5 years (as it will take at least 4 years to get the hours for command). Recent intakes of pilots with considerable experience have seen some of them move on quickly (most of us are actively looking at the options for the next step) to heavier metal.

Personally, I think the logic is flawed as a youngster who has been very well trained with 2000 hours jet (after 3 years) is likely to be courted by the bigger airlines and will be happy to move on by that stage.

A claim of discrimination will fail, as the company is simply seeking on commercial grounds to balance the makeup of its workforce. I understand that 5 of the most recent 8 recruits are integrated students and the other 3 have considerable experience.

LOST

[no sponsor]

Even on the Citi Express application form there is a question asking if you have: 'successfully attended an integrated (not modular) training course' - Yes or No?

[Northern Highflyer]

Flying Farmer

I have heard from several sources (i.e. people who have phoned or sent CV's to Flybe) that they will not take on people over 32.

This comment from the Flybe British European page on ppjn.
That's one off the list for us "old codgers" who are too old to be moulded.

Now where did I leave my pipe and slippers ? I am getting so forgetful in my old age.

[benhurr]

It is not only the flight tests which are identical for both routes - the flight examiner can also be the same person. My IR examiner at Leeds was also the IR examiner in Jerez. Does he set different standards for passing an IR depending on if the student is integrated or modular? I think not...

Maybe airlines feel that integrated students are more likely to fit their required profile.

[no sponsor]

Flybe do take on people over 32. I know an ex-instructor who was taken on at 38 after completing an integrated course at OATS.