Is CTC the only way forward??
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I’m referring to the CTC Wings cadet scheme here, as I don’t understand the others on offer.
I have a different perspective of the morality of this scheme.
When I looked into self-sponsored training, I found that all of the schools were keen to grab my money – not that I had a lot to grab. They made all sorts of promises about subsequent employment which they were unable to substantiate. Some of them had apparently sophisticated selection to get onto the course; however it seemed that most people passed the selection, reducing it to a sales technique and con.
I then tried to find out how many of the 1,500 UK wannabes that start out their commercial pilot training each year actually get an airline job. I couldn’t find any accurate figures, but let’s say that it is a small percentage.
So, let’s compare this scheme with self-sponsored training.
Self-funded
CTC Wings
This is an absolute heaven send. It also compares very favourably with traditional sponsorship schemes where, with the exception of BA, you had to put a substantial amount of your own money in and that was spent first.
You can see which choice I made and I am utterly delighted and feel duly privileged to get this opportunity. My experience is that the company are completely honest and fair – they took trouble to point out during the selection the commitment and conditions and in contrast to the flying schools trying to flog a course to people who have little chance of achieving their ambitions, I’d say CTC’s morality is impeccable.
I have a different perspective of the morality of this scheme.
When I looked into self-sponsored training, I found that all of the schools were keen to grab my money – not that I had a lot to grab. They made all sorts of promises about subsequent employment which they were unable to substantiate. Some of them had apparently sophisticated selection to get onto the course; however it seemed that most people passed the selection, reducing it to a sales technique and con.
I then tried to find out how many of the 1,500 UK wannabes that start out their commercial pilot training each year actually get an airline job. I couldn’t find any accurate figures, but let’s say that it is a small percentage.
So, let’s compare this scheme with self-sponsored training.
Self-funded
CTC Wings
This is an absolute heaven send. It also compares very favourably with traditional sponsorship schemes where, with the exception of BA, you had to put a substantial amount of your own money in and that was spent first.
You can see which choice I made and I am utterly delighted and feel duly privileged to get this opportunity. My experience is that the company are completely honest and fair – they took trouble to point out during the selection the commitment and conditions and in contrast to the flying schools trying to flog a course to people who have little chance of achieving their ambitions, I’d say CTC’s morality is impeccable.
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I am totally impartial on this subject, seeing as I am not in the commercial training pipeline (although considering it 
)
Surely success breeds success. If CTC can find places for all their graduates, this record will be noticed by the airlines and potential students, therefore increasing interest, throughput and ultimately increase the level of success, and so on. This will continue until the organisation reaches its limit. The same thing happens in every other area in a free market economy.
Can anyone comment if CTC use their networking contacts to try and secure jobs for modular people just doing their AQC, not the full integrated courses?
Oggin
)Surely success breeds success. If CTC can find places for all their graduates, this record will be noticed by the airlines and potential students, therefore increasing interest, throughput and ultimately increase the level of success, and so on. This will continue until the organisation reaches its limit. The same thing happens in every other area in a free market economy.
Can anyone comment if CTC use their networking contacts to try and secure jobs for modular people just doing their AQC, not the full integrated courses?
Oggin
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Easy Cadet,
Nice argument, however, you are comparing against some of the more dubious practices of OAT, and of an integrated course.
For those who get a good score in GAPAN, or previously passed military selection tests, but who are now too old to do the Wings or other CTC schemes, then CTC represents a real problem for those to get into the industry. Effectively, it bars others from approaching certain airlines, for instance, Monarch.
I see CTC as a god-send to those who are young enough, and who are prevented from entering training unless via loans.
There will always be people, at whatever stage in life, who will want to be airline pilots, or pilots of some sort. Unfortunately, some are not cut out for it, either through lack of raw ability, or personality. I've met quite a few people in training of whom I struggle to see how they are going to get through an interview. But it's their choice. Who has the right to stop them training? No-one. There are others who do have the right skill sets funding their way through training.
Prior to CTCs various schemes, the industry did OK. Most captains/FOs I know who are not in BA, self-sponsored their way into airlines. There is nothing wrong with this approach, and has been used in most other countries around the globe. Basing an argument on morality, in this instance, is unnecessary to be honest.
Nice argument, however, you are comparing against some of the more dubious practices of OAT, and of an integrated course.
For those who get a good score in GAPAN, or previously passed military selection tests, but who are now too old to do the Wings or other CTC schemes, then CTC represents a real problem for those to get into the industry. Effectively, it bars others from approaching certain airlines, for instance, Monarch.
I see CTC as a god-send to those who are young enough, and who are prevented from entering training unless via loans.
There will always be people, at whatever stage in life, who will want to be airline pilots, or pilots of some sort. Unfortunately, some are not cut out for it, either through lack of raw ability, or personality. I've met quite a few people in training of whom I struggle to see how they are going to get through an interview. But it's their choice. Who has the right to stop them training? No-one. There are others who do have the right skill sets funding their way through training.
Prior to CTCs various schemes, the industry did OK. Most captains/FOs I know who are not in BA, self-sponsored their way into airlines. There is nothing wrong with this approach, and has been used in most other countries around the globe. Basing an argument on morality, in this instance, is unnecessary to be honest.
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It is fair to say I am looking at this from my own perspective as I am less well informed about other routes into the industry.
When I left school there were a number of cadet schemes and the RAF – I got the info on most of them and decided to go to uni before applying. I guess at the time, they barred older people from the jobs at the end of them. By the time I left uni, thinks had changed. I decided that I didn’t really want to go into the RAF – I want to be an airline pilot, and BA and British Midland had stopped their schemes and eazy had started sponsoring; the format of the scheme was a little different but it had the same effect on the availability of airline jobs – some new jobs are effectively barred to people not coming off the cadet scheme that feeds them. I applied to JMC and eazy but screwed up the selection, so then started looking into paying for my own training.
I was bewildered by the choices available, and found the flying schools were very ready to take my money, their advice was contradictory, and their hints and promises about my employability on leaving them outrageous. I passed the selection for one integrated course – as did a suspiciously large number of the people who I met there. But I was struggling to find the money to pay for it.
I did meet the owner of one small school who was totally honest though – the most interesting discussion I’ve had with anyone about the airline industry. He told me to get onto a cadet scheme if I could and if not, to be realistic about my employability. If I was still keen, to save my money as much as I could, but make sure to do the groundschool, CPL and IR with someone good who can show a good track record of getting people through the exams. He didn’t try and sell me his course (modular) and refused to advise me against an integrated course.
I was left with the strong impression that if I did pay for my own training, the chances of employment where not great. The morality issue I refer to is the great marketing machines that have the sole purpose of parting you with your money, but fail to point out the reality that the odds are stacked against you if you do. I was pretty determined, so I had just about decided to take the plunge when CTC told me that I could reapply. I did, was luck enough to succeed and have not looked back since.
Is it wrong that people over 30 can’t get on this scheme? Well I guess that is up to the airlines who set their recruitment rules, but as far as I can see it is no different from what has always existed – if you are lucky enough to get into the RAF or onto an airline cadet scheme, your chances of success are very high. If you are too old, or don’t manage to pass cadet selection, caveat emptor.
One other think no sponsor, can’t you get into Monarch from the ATP scheme? I don’t know that much about it, but my impression is that route is still open to people who self-sponsor – that was certainly in my gameplan if it did have to pay for my own training.
It is fair to say I am looking at this from my own perspective as I am less well informed about other routes into the industry.
When I left school there were a number of cadet schemes and the RAF – I got the info on most of them and decided to go to uni before applying. I guess at the time, they barred older people from the jobs at the end of them. By the time I left uni, thinks had changed. I decided that I didn’t really want to go into the RAF – I want to be an airline pilot, and BA and British Midland had stopped their schemes and eazy had started sponsoring; the format of the scheme was a little different but it had the same effect on the availability of airline jobs – some new jobs are effectively barred to people not coming off the cadet scheme that feeds them. I applied to JMC and eazy but screwed up the selection, so then started looking into paying for my own training.
I was bewildered by the choices available, and found the flying schools were very ready to take my money, their advice was contradictory, and their hints and promises about my employability on leaving them outrageous. I passed the selection for one integrated course – as did a suspiciously large number of the people who I met there. But I was struggling to find the money to pay for it.
I did meet the owner of one small school who was totally honest though – the most interesting discussion I’ve had with anyone about the airline industry. He told me to get onto a cadet scheme if I could and if not, to be realistic about my employability. If I was still keen, to save my money as much as I could, but make sure to do the groundschool, CPL and IR with someone good who can show a good track record of getting people through the exams. He didn’t try and sell me his course (modular) and refused to advise me against an integrated course.
I was left with the strong impression that if I did pay for my own training, the chances of employment where not great. The morality issue I refer to is the great marketing machines that have the sole purpose of parting you with your money, but fail to point out the reality that the odds are stacked against you if you do. I was pretty determined, so I had just about decided to take the plunge when CTC told me that I could reapply. I did, was luck enough to succeed and have not looked back since.
Is it wrong that people over 30 can’t get on this scheme? Well I guess that is up to the airlines who set their recruitment rules, but as far as I can see it is no different from what has always existed – if you are lucky enough to get into the RAF or onto an airline cadet scheme, your chances of success are very high. If you are too old, or don’t manage to pass cadet selection, caveat emptor.
One other think no sponsor, can’t you get into Monarch from the ATP scheme? I don’t know that much about it, but my impression is that route is still open to people who self-sponsor – that was certainly in my gameplan if it did have to pay for my own training.
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One other think no sponsor, can’t you get into Monarch from the ATP scheme? I don’t know that much about it, but my impression is that route is still open to people who self-sponsor – that was certainly in my gameplan if it did have to pay for my own training.
and No Sponsor,
Prior to CTCs various schemes, the industry did OK
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I fail to understand why CTC prevents people who self sponsor from having a go at Monarch or Britannia for example. It's quite the opposite actually, simply because these airlines wouldn't otherwise recruit low timers - especially self sponsored low-timers.
PP
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Sorry you are right PP,
the info I got was simply from ppjn,but it appears that some of it is incomplete and/or out of date - so I stand corrected!
But still there seems to be alot of CTC-bashing going on in different pprune topics and I do think it is a bit unfair to blame everything that's going wrong in the industry on them. Especially since, as you say, even ctc's partner airlines continue to recruit self sponsored pilots (except maybe Monarch and EZY)
the info I got was simply from ppjn,but it appears that some of it is incomplete and/or out of date - so I stand corrected!
But still there seems to be alot of CTC-bashing going on in different pprune topics and I do think it is a bit unfair to blame everything that's going wrong in the industry on them. Especially since, as you say, even ctc's partner airlines continue to recruit self sponsored pilots (except maybe Monarch and EZY)
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I am not bashing CTC. It's a good scheme, and is of a great benefit to certain people. I liked the CTC cadets I trained with, and wish them all the best. I hope they are the ones who will go to BA.
I do want to disarm people in the industry that because, (a) you are over a certain age (34 for the ATP scheme), or (b) you have self sponsored, that this should preclude you from having a fair crack at the whip, so to speak.
As I keep saying, there are many self sponsored individuals who have had very successful careers elsewhere, but for what ever reason come to the industry later in life. Discrimination of any form, but particularly when it is used as a marketing tool, really irritates me.
(BTW - Please refer to Highflyer27 statements (the other CTC thread) on the benefits of CTC being able to only offer the route into certain airlines).
I do want to disarm people in the industry that because, (a) you are over a certain age (34 for the ATP scheme), or (b) you have self sponsored, that this should preclude you from having a fair crack at the whip, so to speak.
As I keep saying, there are many self sponsored individuals who have had very successful careers elsewhere, but for what ever reason come to the industry later in life. Discrimination of any form, but particularly when it is used as a marketing tool, really irritates me.
(BTW - Please refer to Highflyer27 statements (the other CTC thread) on the benefits of CTC being able to only offer the route into certain airlines).
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M80: as far as modular/integrated goes, it IS officially a modular course and the cadets need the requisite number of hours for licence issue as for any other modular course. I believe this is because the training is split between eg. BGS and CTC themselves. (I didn't study latin, but I think ab-initio means 'from the beginning' so that could apply to integrated and modular).
I don't know how things now work between the Wings Cadet and Wings ATP schemes but after CPL/IR issue the cadets were effectively mixed with the ATP scheme pilots on the AQC courses with CTC and the training from that point on was identical, although the airline placements worked differently.
I don't know how things now work between the Wings Cadet and Wings ATP schemes but after CPL/IR issue the cadets were effectively mixed with the ATP scheme pilots on the AQC courses with CTC and the training from that point on was identical, although the airline placements worked differently.
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Hi everyone - new to this with my fATPL and looking at the CTC Wings ATP scheme. I have lots of questions if anyone can help please!
Does anyone know the approximate timeline of an application to the ATP scheme starting with initial application form? How long does it take (if successful) to get on to the AQC, and how long from then is it normal to get with a partner airline?
Am I right in thinking that initial selection has three parts, namely:
Aplication form
Testing and Teamwork exercises
Interview
and that all of this is for entry to AQC? Is it true that it is only upon entry to the AQC that the £6000 is payable? How does the £2000 rebate I have read about work? Is any rebate part of the eventual package of payments received from the airline?
Does consideration of partner airlines begin before starting the AQC, or only when it is passed and you are finally on the ATP scheme? Are you on the ATP scheme as soon as you are successful in the AQC, or only when you have a partner airline?
Thanks
Does anyone know the approximate timeline of an application to the ATP scheme starting with initial application form? How long does it take (if successful) to get on to the AQC, and how long from then is it normal to get with a partner airline?
Am I right in thinking that initial selection has three parts, namely:
Aplication form
Testing and Teamwork exercises
Interview
and that all of this is for entry to AQC? Is it true that it is only upon entry to the AQC that the £6000 is payable? How does the £2000 rebate I have read about work? Is any rebate part of the eventual package of payments received from the airline?
Does consideration of partner airlines begin before starting the AQC, or only when it is passed and you are finally on the ATP scheme? Are you on the ATP scheme as soon as you are successful in the AQC, or only when you have a partner airline?
Thanks
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Does anyone know the approximate timeline of an application to the ATP scheme starting with initial application form? How long does it take (if successful) to get on to the AQC, and how long from then is it normal to get with a partner airline?
Am I right in thinking that initial selection has three parts, namely:
Aplication form
Testing and Teamwork exercises
Interview
Aplication form
Testing and Teamwork exercises
Interview
Phase 1: Application Form
Phase 2: Group Discussions and Aptitude test (Maths, Technical and a Plate Decode). You will then get an email that evening, as to whether you have been successful or not.
Phase 3: More Group excercises and the interview.
Then you wait for an AQC Date. Range from that month to 6 Months away. Dont know the wait list at the moment, perhaps someone else can help, but a friend of mine has been waiting since Sept having passed the selection.
and that all of this is for entry to AQC? Is it true that it is only upon entry to the AQC that the £6000 is payable?
How does the £2000 rebate I have read about work?
Is any rebate part of the eventual package of payments received from the airline?
) then onto full salary. Some airlines will pay you flight pay (Monarch for example) whilst you are with them.
Does consideration of partner airlines begin before starting the AQC, or only when it is passed and you are finally on the ATP scheme? Are you on the ATP scheme as soon as you are successful in the AQC, or only when you have a partner airline?
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I confirm everything TRon said in the previous post. I would just like to add that I know of someone who passed phase 3 not so long ago and has been offered a place on the AQC starting beginning of Feb.
Things are moving - so to those applying: go for it!
Things are moving - so to those applying: go for it!
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Thanks a lot TRon and JMC, excellent answers to my questions!! 
Thankyou!!
TRon,
I totally understand CTC not tolerating people who are too precious about which name they get, but how does this bode for people on either side of the Airbus / Boeing divide? Do you need to just take what you get or is this preference taken into consideration from an earlier stage? Is it best to be neutral on the issue and take what comes?
JMC, out of interest, do you know when the guy offered the February AQC started his application?
It sounds like an incredibly long haul doesn't it? How on earth do people stay current during all of this??
I wouldn't like to not try to get a job any other way while waiting on all those various stages to come around. I suppose a fair number of people get jobs some other way while going through all of this? (Not meaning to say the streets are paved with first jobs of course but you know what I mean!)
What do you think would be the situation if someone hit the panic button and went and did a self financed type rating along the way? Would that preclude you from further participation, or make you more attractive? Do type rated people do the scheme?
Thanks again,
Mark
ps: CTC told me on the phone they are not accepting any applications at the moment, wanting to match as they do likely airline demand with supply - they said to check back at the beginning of March....a good sign that they manage numbers sensibly to the benefit of existing participants to the extent that they turn down cash??
Thankyou!!TRon,
You are just allocated to an airline as and when they need someone. So I am told if you refuse or dont fancy somewhere you wont be offered anything else.
JMC, out of interest, do you know when the guy offered the February AQC started his application?
It sounds like an incredibly long haul doesn't it? How on earth do people stay current during all of this??
I wouldn't like to not try to get a job any other way while waiting on all those various stages to come around. I suppose a fair number of people get jobs some other way while going through all of this? (Not meaning to say the streets are paved with first jobs of course but you know what I mean!)
What do you think would be the situation if someone hit the panic button and went and did a self financed type rating along the way? Would that preclude you from further participation, or make you more attractive? Do type rated people do the scheme?
Thanks again,
Mark
ps: CTC told me on the phone they are not accepting any applications at the moment, wanting to match as they do likely airline demand with supply - they said to check back at the beginning of March....a good sign that they manage numbers sensibly to the benefit of existing participants to the extent that they turn down cash??
Last edited by mjc9967; 17th Jan 2005 at 09:34.
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I think you have to take the stance that you, as an unemployed pilot, should take whatever jet job is offered to you as quite frankly whether it is Airbus ir 737/757 you are getting an opportunity many have and would fight tooth and nail for.
Whilst I can appreciate you might prefer one type, I dont think you would be looked upon too favourably if you stated you only wanted Boeing or Airbus for example.
I can totally understand your stance as I thought the same, but the way to look at things is that once you are the other side of the recruitment fence, you have a few more options. i.e. 1000 hours on jets (for example a year and a bit) you can move to where you might want to be, rather than having been put by CTC and 9 times out of 10 once you have this experience most operators you migrate to with experience will pay your type, as you are generally moving up the ladder most see it, although I cam quite happy where I am at the moment!
In terms of paying for a type rating whilst waiting you will certainly preclude yourself from the scheme. CTC certainly want to asses you using their own instructors, through their own systems and practices.
I had a friend that was in the same boat (ish) only he was in the pool and was offered a job on a Turboprop whilst he was there. He asked CTC if he went there could he keep his place, they said not. Reason being you as a CTC cadet are expected to start at very Short Notice. Mine was Call on Friday for a Monday Start. Hard to get a job which will keep the wolf away from the door and allow you to leave with that kind of notice, but can be done if you are straight with them and dont use any of your holiday. Again, that was what I did, used my holiday to cover my Notice period and explained this from the start.
All in all it takes a while, but you are straight onto a jet, and not had to shell out the 20k for the rating. There are pro's and cons's but I have got a 737 rating out of it, and will start my Airbus course this Aug not even having had 1000 hours on the thing! Not because I am anything special, just with everything in this business in the right place at the right time!
Whilst I can appreciate you might prefer one type, I dont think you would be looked upon too favourably if you stated you only wanted Boeing or Airbus for example.
I can totally understand your stance as I thought the same, but the way to look at things is that once you are the other side of the recruitment fence, you have a few more options. i.e. 1000 hours on jets (for example a year and a bit) you can move to where you might want to be, rather than having been put by CTC and 9 times out of 10 once you have this experience most operators you migrate to with experience will pay your type, as you are generally moving up the ladder most see it, although I cam quite happy where I am at the moment!
In terms of paying for a type rating whilst waiting you will certainly preclude yourself from the scheme. CTC certainly want to asses you using their own instructors, through their own systems and practices.
I had a friend that was in the same boat (ish) only he was in the pool and was offered a job on a Turboprop whilst he was there. He asked CTC if he went there could he keep his place, they said not. Reason being you as a CTC cadet are expected to start at very Short Notice. Mine was Call on Friday for a Monday Start. Hard to get a job which will keep the wolf away from the door and allow you to leave with that kind of notice, but can be done if you are straight with them and dont use any of your holiday. Again, that was what I did, used my holiday to cover my Notice period and explained this from the start.
All in all it takes a while, but you are straight onto a jet, and not had to shell out the 20k for the rating. There are pro's and cons's but I have got a 737 rating out of it, and will start my Airbus course this Aug not even having had 1000 hours on the thing! Not because I am anything special, just with everything in this business in the right place at the right time!
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Good to hear from some guys who have actually been there and seen it.
I've been searching some info and listening to rumors so could you clear this up for me?
You spend the 6k on the AQC, Then you do the TR with a company which you fly for a while with the parner airline (as I understand some companies pay you and some don't..or?). Then you are hopefully offered a permanent position..
So when does the company interiview you? I would guess before TR? If you fail that or the company sais "not quite what we were looking for" are you out of the game or what?
Besides the 6k I've heard that some companies make you sign a bond. How common is that and are there any other holes to look out for.
In the case of EZJ and CTC are you considerd as a member of the TRSS and therefor have the reuced payscale fort five years?
If you could answer any of theese questions I would greatly appreciate it
I've been searching some info and listening to rumors so could you clear this up for me?
You spend the 6k on the AQC, Then you do the TR with a company which you fly for a while with the parner airline (as I understand some companies pay you and some don't..or?). Then you are hopefully offered a permanent position..
So when does the company interiview you? I would guess before TR? If you fail that or the company sais "not quite what we were looking for" are you out of the game or what?
Besides the 6k I've heard that some companies make you sign a bond. How common is that and are there any other holes to look out for.
In the case of EZJ and CTC are you considerd as a member of the TRSS and therefor have the reuced payscale fort five years?
If you could answer any of theese questions I would greatly appreciate it
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You spend the 6k on the AQC, Then you do the TR with a company which you fly for a while with the parner airline (as I understand some companies pay you and some don't..or?). Then you are hopefully offered a permanent position..
So when does the company interiview you?
I would guess before TR? If you fail that or the company sais "not quite what we were looking for" are you out of the game or what?
Besides the 6k I've heard that some companies make you sign a bond. How common is that and are there any other holes to look out for.
In the case of EZJ and CTC are you considered as a member of the TRSS and therefor have the reuced payscale fort five years?
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Ok that answers most of it
Regarding the bond, Obviously I'm not complaining about being bonded. As you say it's very reasonable, what I am concerned with is that if I understand it correctly (in EZJ) the bond is in you name which means that if you were to get fired or the company would turn belly up..it would still be your name on the paper. I know I'm a bit paranoid but I have my reasons
and maybe I got the whole thing wrong.
Actually there seems that the people on the TRSS are on about 5k less pay, according to the website. look at the pay for pilots under "salaries and benefits" and compare it with the pay listed under TRSS. I still wouldn't complain but it is a bit of a difference (about the price of the AQC, yearly
)
Eh, one BIG question.
The AQC it's a demanding course, obviously, but is it a three week long sim check or is it a course?
What I'm trying to find out is if they expect you to learn and make some misstakes and show that you can improve or if thay fail people for let say, not reaching standards early but improving to be above standards at the end of the course.
Hope that made any sense
Regarding the bond, Obviously I'm not complaining about being bonded. As you say it's very reasonable, what I am concerned with is that if I understand it correctly (in EZJ) the bond is in you name which means that if you were to get fired or the company would turn belly up..it would still be your name on the paper. I know I'm a bit paranoid but I have my reasons
and maybe I got the whole thing wrong.Actually there seems that the people on the TRSS are on about 5k less pay, according to the website. look at the pay for pilots under "salaries and benefits" and compare it with the pay listed under TRSS. I still wouldn't complain but it is a bit of a difference (about the price of the AQC, yearly
)Eh, one BIG question.
The AQC it's a demanding course, obviously, but is it a three week long sim check or is it a course?
What I'm trying to find out is if they expect you to learn and make some misstakes and show that you can improve or if thay fail people for let say, not reaching standards early but improving to be above standards at the end of the course.
Hope that made any sense
