OXford and Jobs
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I think 'Reality Checks' post was excellent and highlighted the underlying theme to this Post. As for Rupertpupkin is bear baiting and is trying to get many to start a slanging match which thankfully hasn't bourne any fruit. This is not about a personal attack on Mike and I seem to remember Oxford being very nice to me when they wanted 8k towards the Instrument Rating up front....so it works both ways!
I think it easy for us to turn around and say many should have investigated their options further. For some the full time structured aspect of Integrated is their best option and a lot cannot leave their families to go to Spain full time that leaves precious little options in the UK in terms of training providers.
It is true that Oxford once had many major UK Operators turn to them for training but sadly the day of full sponsorships are long gone. Oxford have had to change their business model to be more in line with the current trend. I should think that the CTC and APP Forumlae will be the norm from now on with students funding all or part of the training and the risk being taken away from the airlines. Airlines will have a pool of tangilble 'quality' low hour fresh faced pilots to call on as and when they need them rather than fund what they see as a shortfall in their pilot numbers.
I am sure that in the next boom Oxford will have customers for its APP Scheme but at the moment they do not and that is not the information that is being portrayed. Many I saw being shown around were with their parents/sponsors who probably know little about aviation and to be told by an establishment such as Oxford that they have a dedicated career department and have links with may of the major airlines, these airlines used to use us blah blah would swing the vote for many be that naive or not.
The fact that we as ex-students are emailed asking for our info and photos, not to apply direct to partner airlines (and some are a 'Mystery') and that FlyBe have an exclusive recruitment contract with Oxford then two weeks later FlyBe go to Cabair for their sponsorship scheme makes me angry and that they are patently lying.
No-One is saying that by going there you ought to be owed anything, but the point about the guy that may have been a training risk and this was delivered by Mike whom I bet just read his training report and never knew the guy personally is bordering on criminal.
The Career Development dept. of any training organisation would have a tough job gaining a good reputation in today's climate. CTC could be seen as elitist and they place people they have actually assesed to a standard that their partner airlines have recognized at an advanced level, namely the MCC/AQC. Oxford give grass roots training that many airlines merely see as the absolute basics you need for the job. What airlines are interested in and needs to be proven, and CTC Do, is assess that this person can operate in a two crew enviroment, efficiently and competently under emergency situations and handle a jet in a minimum of cost to them in terms of specific training and further line training.
In essence Oxford are trying to overtrain people at a too a early stage and flog them off to airlines to finish off the most expensive and cruicial part of training and at a time when there isn't too much benefit to be gained from judging them. So, APP guys visit the SEP Centre at BA and go on Day release to help build a plastic igloo in an underpriviliged estate in Oxford 'for the kids', well big deal. That is not going to make people better FO's, and most if not all of us are going to have to work in a two crew enviroment first job or get 700 hours for Single Pilot IFR Work and the only way to do that is instruct. I dont think instructing is the dream many have when they rock up to their first day on the APP scheme, not that I am slamming instructors.
The MCC course at present is merely an attendance course and in my view under-utilised by many people and organisations since most airlines are demanding it as a prerequisite to entry. What CTC have done well is assess people on this basis at the very end of their training over the course of about a month to some handling standards above that of a Type rating. This coupled with their IR, CPL and Ground Exam results give the best overview you are going to get in terms of a Low Hours FO and often means that airlines dont even have to sim ride you, not that you failed PT4 at Oxford and got less than 90% in your ground exams so represent a training risk.....Cheers Mike, Nice1!
Until Oxford offer type ratings as part of their training package their APP Scheme will be nearly useless since airlines will still have to take these guys and assess them themselves and train them at a further cost maybe to bloggs student or indeed themselves, rather than take a Type rated guy from CTC who has been vetted and assessed to an agreed standard..who cares where he has done his training as long he is the kind of guy/girl they are looking for and can handle the aircraft and company culture which is what has been proved at CTC. That is what is important to sirlines not how flash the new FNPT King Air/Seneca sims are and where you go on day release to help needy kids.
This is not what is being told to people, but then if I was trying to sell Integrated courses at 10 grand above the going rate, I wouldn't say that either, so I can see why they highlight the 'benefits' of their scheme; just not the way they are selling people false dreams.
I think it easy for us to turn around and say many should have investigated their options further. For some the full time structured aspect of Integrated is their best option and a lot cannot leave their families to go to Spain full time that leaves precious little options in the UK in terms of training providers.
It is true that Oxford once had many major UK Operators turn to them for training but sadly the day of full sponsorships are long gone. Oxford have had to change their business model to be more in line with the current trend. I should think that the CTC and APP Forumlae will be the norm from now on with students funding all or part of the training and the risk being taken away from the airlines. Airlines will have a pool of tangilble 'quality' low hour fresh faced pilots to call on as and when they need them rather than fund what they see as a shortfall in their pilot numbers.
I am sure that in the next boom Oxford will have customers for its APP Scheme but at the moment they do not and that is not the information that is being portrayed. Many I saw being shown around were with their parents/sponsors who probably know little about aviation and to be told by an establishment such as Oxford that they have a dedicated career department and have links with may of the major airlines, these airlines used to use us blah blah would swing the vote for many be that naive or not.
The fact that we as ex-students are emailed asking for our info and photos, not to apply direct to partner airlines (and some are a 'Mystery') and that FlyBe have an exclusive recruitment contract with Oxford then two weeks later FlyBe go to Cabair for their sponsorship scheme makes me angry and that they are patently lying.
No-One is saying that by going there you ought to be owed anything, but the point about the guy that may have been a training risk and this was delivered by Mike whom I bet just read his training report and never knew the guy personally is bordering on criminal.
The Career Development dept. of any training organisation would have a tough job gaining a good reputation in today's climate. CTC could be seen as elitist and they place people they have actually assesed to a standard that their partner airlines have recognized at an advanced level, namely the MCC/AQC. Oxford give grass roots training that many airlines merely see as the absolute basics you need for the job. What airlines are interested in and needs to be proven, and CTC Do, is assess that this person can operate in a two crew enviroment, efficiently and competently under emergency situations and handle a jet in a minimum of cost to them in terms of specific training and further line training.
In essence Oxford are trying to overtrain people at a too a early stage and flog them off to airlines to finish off the most expensive and cruicial part of training and at a time when there isn't too much benefit to be gained from judging them. So, APP guys visit the SEP Centre at BA and go on Day release to help build a plastic igloo in an underpriviliged estate in Oxford 'for the kids', well big deal. That is not going to make people better FO's, and most if not all of us are going to have to work in a two crew enviroment first job or get 700 hours for Single Pilot IFR Work and the only way to do that is instruct. I dont think instructing is the dream many have when they rock up to their first day on the APP scheme, not that I am slamming instructors.
The MCC course at present is merely an attendance course and in my view under-utilised by many people and organisations since most airlines are demanding it as a prerequisite to entry. What CTC have done well is assess people on this basis at the very end of their training over the course of about a month to some handling standards above that of a Type rating. This coupled with their IR, CPL and Ground Exam results give the best overview you are going to get in terms of a Low Hours FO and often means that airlines dont even have to sim ride you, not that you failed PT4 at Oxford and got less than 90% in your ground exams so represent a training risk.....Cheers Mike, Nice1!
Until Oxford offer type ratings as part of their training package their APP Scheme will be nearly useless since airlines will still have to take these guys and assess them themselves and train them at a further cost maybe to bloggs student or indeed themselves, rather than take a Type rated guy from CTC who has been vetted and assessed to an agreed standard..who cares where he has done his training as long he is the kind of guy/girl they are looking for and can handle the aircraft and company culture which is what has been proved at CTC. That is what is important to sirlines not how flash the new FNPT King Air/Seneca sims are and where you go on day release to help needy kids.
This is not what is being told to people, but then if I was trying to sell Integrated courses at 10 grand above the going rate, I wouldn't say that either, so I can see why they highlight the 'benefits' of their scheme; just not the way they are selling people false dreams.
Last edited by TRon; 10th Feb 2004 at 04:58.
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Check dis. 'ear me now. Listen, you boys need to chill. There ain't no shame spendin' 60k on trainin' and bein' the most over-qualified burger-flipper in da Golden Arches. Do what I did. Get down to da local fancy dress shop and hire out da best blingin, pimpin pilot uniform and tell yo b-hatches yo be drivin da biggest jumbo in da skies.
Peace.
ps Down 3 Greens: you're a ccok, you're a ccok!!
Peace.
ps Down 3 Greens: you're a ccok, you're a ccok!!
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Yo hear me now,
Who be this Eeeeeasy Now, dissing the bruvvas, me tinks you be a male hen, waving yor little table tennis bats round like a girlie in your batty boy dispatch outfit.
You ave the big flying aspirations, blowing £60k on ya pipe dreams, you leave the Oxford massif and now you be in da manchester airside as a parking attendent, backing in da jetstreams and shiny boeings for the nice customers.
so word up Micky Taylor, check this ............ you may take our money, you may take our dreams, but you'll never take...................................... our photos.
Who be this Eeeeeasy Now, dissing the bruvvas, me tinks you be a male hen, waving yor little table tennis bats round like a girlie in your batty boy dispatch outfit.
You ave the big flying aspirations, blowing £60k on ya pipe dreams, you leave the Oxford massif and now you be in da manchester airside as a parking attendent, backing in da jetstreams and shiny boeings for the nice customers.
so word up Micky Taylor, check this ............ you may take our money, you may take our dreams, but you'll never take...................................... our photos.
Last edited by aliG; 11th Feb 2004 at 17:26.
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I must admit I was only modular ground school but enjoyed my time there and after i got a job phoned Steve and Dena to let them know that I had a job.
Got phone call from some burd who introduced themselves as oxford marketing no name given.
Asking me who i was working with who the contact person was etc. She was very upset when i told her that i didn't think having OAT on my CV had anything to do with me getting a job. I suspect I had the right postcode on my CV more than anything.
You have paid your money you owe them nothing. Ground exam pass results matter not a jot. All they are doing is trying to get a contact DB. The reason they want you to submit there CV's through them is so the can be party to through the grape vine info which they can't get. So by putting your CV through them you are opening up them flooding the employer with the top 1% of students at oxford so ******ing up your chances.
**** them, if they want to know who you are applying to say its marketable info so they will have to pay 20 quid for it. When did you as a student get anything free off them?
MJ
Got phone call from some burd who introduced themselves as oxford marketing no name given.
Asking me who i was working with who the contact person was etc. She was very upset when i told her that i didn't think having OAT on my CV had anything to do with me getting a job. I suspect I had the right postcode on my CV more than anything.
You have paid your money you owe them nothing. Ground exam pass results matter not a jot. All they are doing is trying to get a contact DB. The reason they want you to submit there CV's through them is so the can be party to through the grape vine info which they can't get. So by putting your CV through them you are opening up them flooding the employer with the top 1% of students at oxford so ******ing up your chances.
**** them, if they want to know who you are applying to say its marketable info so they will have to pay 20 quid for it. When did you as a student get anything free off them?
MJ
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I am currently at Oxford and I am sure there are many others who currently are, who like me have read this thread, it makes you sweat !!
However I have not yet called on the services of the career development officer so could not pass comment.
I think you will always find this will be a past tense thread down to the fact that people who are at/just left oxford will not be willing to participate in it for fear of rocking the boat.
I also think it will attract replies from persons unsatisfied with the service they have received vs. how glad they were with the service (granted, not always), so a bit of an unfair field.
We don't really know what links they have with airlines, and the type of relationships those links are, on a company or individual level (would be nice to know though).Sure there is the marketing stuff you hear all the time, same with any firm/product. (except ronseal, does exactly what it says on the tin !!)
As mentioned by others in earlier threads, I do think the APP scheme is one that is going to be looked at closely, by punters looking for a course and by recruiting airlines (do they exist??) to see if the product is a cut above the rest. When the first batch get churned out the results will depend I suppose on what there is available in the market.
This is my own speculation here but, I would imagine that a database of individuals that can be searched on specific criteria is attractive to someone recruiting personnel. For example to receive 3000 cv's and have to read them all to see which ones for example have a >85% pass mark and a first time IR pass vs. making a call to a firm with it all on a Database and have only those records sent down to you must be great. I know if it was me recruiting which I would prefer. (no, I haven't been brain washed just looking at it from another angle).
The next argument would be if your name made it to e.g.airline then following such example criteria what happens if they receive your name via another medium, who looks better or worse for that, do you look like you are determined etc or does the recruitment officer think, If everyone didn't do this it would half my teams workload and save me ££ and time and etc etc....... who knows.... only people in the know !!
The first 3 APP courses have about 30 students on them in total, of those there are I think 2 fully sponsored students and I think more than 15 who are kind of part sponsored who have close links with the said airline (liaison visits, exam reviews etc) . So will be interesting to hear what success stories are produced for them all, however especially interesting to see how the APP students who have no links with airlines get on.
All the best.
However I have not yet called on the services of the career development officer so could not pass comment.
I think you will always find this will be a past tense thread down to the fact that people who are at/just left oxford will not be willing to participate in it for fear of rocking the boat.
I also think it will attract replies from persons unsatisfied with the service they have received vs. how glad they were with the service (granted, not always), so a bit of an unfair field.
We don't really know what links they have with airlines, and the type of relationships those links are, on a company or individual level (would be nice to know though).Sure there is the marketing stuff you hear all the time, same with any firm/product. (except ronseal, does exactly what it says on the tin !!)
As mentioned by others in earlier threads, I do think the APP scheme is one that is going to be looked at closely, by punters looking for a course and by recruiting airlines (do they exist??) to see if the product is a cut above the rest. When the first batch get churned out the results will depend I suppose on what there is available in the market.
This is my own speculation here but, I would imagine that a database of individuals that can be searched on specific criteria is attractive to someone recruiting personnel. For example to receive 3000 cv's and have to read them all to see which ones for example have a >85% pass mark and a first time IR pass vs. making a call to a firm with it all on a Database and have only those records sent down to you must be great. I know if it was me recruiting which I would prefer. (no, I haven't been brain washed just looking at it from another angle).
The next argument would be if your name made it to e.g.airline then following such example criteria what happens if they receive your name via another medium, who looks better or worse for that, do you look like you are determined etc or does the recruitment officer think, If everyone didn't do this it would half my teams workload and save me ££ and time and etc etc....... who knows.... only people in the know !!
The first 3 APP courses have about 30 students on them in total, of those there are I think 2 fully sponsored students and I think more than 15 who are kind of part sponsored who have close links with the said airline (liaison visits, exam reviews etc) . So will be interesting to hear what success stories are produced for them all, however especially interesting to see how the APP students who have no links with airlines get on.
All the best.
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To you and anyone else going through Oxford at the moment, you better pray you get that 85% average and 1st IRT pass or else Oxford won't want to know you very much. You'll be pleased to join the long list of graduates that are sent e-mails each week telling you such things like :
Ryanair is conducting a further round of selection this week (you're not invited though)
BAA have reported a 4% growth in air travel last year (predicting 5% for this year)
flyBE's recruitment is on-going throughout the year (and?)
Hangar8 are still trying to decide on the possibility of a vacancy coming up in the future
Occassionally, you will get a really humourous request like :
"I will end with some requests:
When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.
On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.
Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?
If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.
If there are any topics, seminars, etc. that you would like added to the Professional Studies Programme please let me know.
If you have any experiences that you wish to share with your colleagues such as Employment in the USA, the Job Market in Italy, Flying in Africa, please email details to me."
Get off PPRUNE and hit the books my friends! You better make sure you're one of the elite at Oxford.
Buwahahahaha
Ryanair is conducting a further round of selection this week (you're not invited though)
BAA have reported a 4% growth in air travel last year (predicting 5% for this year)
flyBE's recruitment is on-going throughout the year (and?)
Hangar8 are still trying to decide on the possibility of a vacancy coming up in the future
Occassionally, you will get a really humourous request like :
"I will end with some requests:
When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.
On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.
Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?
If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.
If there are any topics, seminars, etc. that you would like added to the Professional Studies Programme please let me know.
If you have any experiences that you wish to share with your colleagues such as Employment in the USA, the Job Market in Italy, Flying in Africa, please email details to me."
Get off PPRUNE and hit the books my friends! You better make sure you're one of the elite at Oxford.
Buwahahahaha
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It does rather make you wonder why Oxford don't already have access to this information given the really good contacts they allegedly have with the airlines. Good enough to give OAT exclusive recruitment priveledges it would seem. Good enough to have developed the APP in partnership with major recruiters.
Hmmmmmm, I wonder............
Hmmmmmm, I wonder............
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My advice would be to stop relying on this career officer guy. If Oxford are suggesting that they will get you a job through their "contacts" they are unfairly building up the hopes of graduates. Oxford is a business, you are a statistic, a form of income. When you leave if you want a job you have to be pro-active, this is a hard fact, passing Oxford is difficult and expensive work but the work is not finished. I understand people are very upset as they have paid all this money and Oxford is not following through. The sooner you go looking for jobs yourself the sooner you will have one. The industry is about supply and demand, airlines are reluctant to spend money so a type rating may be an advantage. The real world can be s**t but i guarantee you it's worth it when you do get a job.
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At Oxford
I'm an APP student currently at Oxford and I would agree with the assertion that Oxford marketing certainly lacks a degree of integrity. I can furnish one specific example of this. Before committing to any of the schools in early 1993 I visited most of the leading contenders.
When I visited Cabair I had a long 1-2-1 chat with a very friendly chap there who said to me that he'd seen many cycles in the industry over the years and he thought it would take some time for this one to play out. He recommended that if I could defer starting training until early 2004 (ie nearly a year) then I would probably be well placed in terms of hitting the recruitment upswing. I left that meeting deeply respecting both the man and the institution he represented for his honourable approach.
I was in touch with Oxford from 1991 through 1993 and every conversation I ever had with them when I expressed doubts about the state of the industry and timing my training they told me that if I started training then I would be finished in nice time for the coming 'pilot shortage'!! There's simply no need for Oxford to push this line - there are plenty of people driven by a deep seated desire to fly big iron and there's no need to feed people false promises to get them in the door.
In the end you may ask why I still chose Oxford. Well location was a factor, as were the facilities coupled with the fact that their notes are probably the best available. So far, I've been happy enough with my choice.
In the end anyone who wishes to enter this industry should use their own critical judgement to assess both when and where to train. Nobody can find you a job except you. The airline industry has been in a drastic state for over 2 years now and there simply haven't been the jobs there for Oxford or anyone else to point people to. That bit isn't Oxford's fault - but maybe a little more of the integrity Cabair demonstrated wouldn't go amiss.
Desk-pilot
When I visited Cabair I had a long 1-2-1 chat with a very friendly chap there who said to me that he'd seen many cycles in the industry over the years and he thought it would take some time for this one to play out. He recommended that if I could defer starting training until early 2004 (ie nearly a year) then I would probably be well placed in terms of hitting the recruitment upswing. I left that meeting deeply respecting both the man and the institution he represented for his honourable approach.
I was in touch with Oxford from 1991 through 1993 and every conversation I ever had with them when I expressed doubts about the state of the industry and timing my training they told me that if I started training then I would be finished in nice time for the coming 'pilot shortage'!! There's simply no need for Oxford to push this line - there are plenty of people driven by a deep seated desire to fly big iron and there's no need to feed people false promises to get them in the door.
In the end you may ask why I still chose Oxford. Well location was a factor, as were the facilities coupled with the fact that their notes are probably the best available. So far, I've been happy enough with my choice.
In the end anyone who wishes to enter this industry should use their own critical judgement to assess both when and where to train. Nobody can find you a job except you. The airline industry has been in a drastic state for over 2 years now and there simply haven't been the jobs there for Oxford or anyone else to point people to. That bit isn't Oxford's fault - but maybe a little more of the integrity Cabair demonstrated wouldn't go amiss.
Desk-pilot
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Integrity and Cabair ? Sounds like Tim Sharland was the guy you spoke to Desk-Pilot; he's one of the few marketing people in this industry who actually know what they are talking about. An experienced pilot who can judge the market without referal to others.
This is primarily the problem with OAT : Traditionally the first point of contact with the customer tends to be the marketing staff who are almost clueless about the aviation industry. The airlines are notoriously poor at predicting their own requirements for flightcrew so where the marketing people get their intelligence from is anybody's guess. As we are on the perhiphery of a potential recruitment bulge, it is true to say that now probably is a good time to train;however as far as the schools are concerned, when is it not a good time?
Professional aviation is for hard working, intelligent, resourceful pragmatists. Not for whimsical dreamers who tend to think they'll walk into a job as soon as they graduate.
Rant over, good luck !
This is primarily the problem with OAT : Traditionally the first point of contact with the customer tends to be the marketing staff who are almost clueless about the aviation industry. The airlines are notoriously poor at predicting their own requirements for flightcrew so where the marketing people get their intelligence from is anybody's guess. As we are on the perhiphery of a potential recruitment bulge, it is true to say that now probably is a good time to train;however as far as the schools are concerned, when is it not a good time?
Professional aviation is for hard working, intelligent, resourceful pragmatists. Not for whimsical dreamers who tend to think they'll walk into a job as soon as they graduate.
Rant over, good luck !
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Although the overall situation is pretty desperate, some airlines do recruit selectively from nominated schools. Obviously, only the best get interviewed--make sure you are one of them.
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Would you guys stop kidding yourselves.
Which airlines and how many jobs have gone that way?
I know of at least 20 pilots all on there first type rating in the last 12 months including myself who have got jobs.
All of them have been modular and all off them have been 1000hr+ instructors. The intergrated course is good for a very select few. The rest of you are pissing very good money up a wall. Don't give these barstards anything, they have given you what you have payed for ie CPL/IR nothing more nothing less.
Thats it, don't fanny about listening to them if they havn't got you an interview within 4 weeks of passing your outa currency and they won't risk you being crap in the sim. So as soon as the next course is out you can kiss your career officers arse he won't put you forward.
Get down the local airfield get to the local pilot pub its time better sent than speaking to lofty. Who i might add was the crappest rad nav instructor i have ever heard and has the charisma of a rotten tomatoe.
MJ
Which airlines and how many jobs have gone that way?
I know of at least 20 pilots all on there first type rating in the last 12 months including myself who have got jobs.
All of them have been modular and all off them have been 1000hr+ instructors. The intergrated course is good for a very select few. The rest of you are pissing very good money up a wall. Don't give these barstards anything, they have given you what you have payed for ie CPL/IR nothing more nothing less.
Thats it, don't fanny about listening to them if they havn't got you an interview within 4 weeks of passing your outa currency and they won't risk you being crap in the sim. So as soon as the next course is out you can kiss your career officers arse he won't put you forward.
Get down the local airfield get to the local pilot pub its time better sent than speaking to lofty. Who i might add was the crappest rad nav instructor i have ever heard and has the charisma of a rotten tomatoe.
MJ
Integrated courses are fine if you need a structured environment where information is spoon fed and someone else does the thinking for you. Why on earth would the airlines want someone who can think for themselves and make captaincy decisions on their own. Heaven forbid. The real difference between integrated amd modular is the amount of cash you've spent. Licence is the same. Standard is the same although you've probably accumulated less buttock-clenching experience on an integrated course.
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Boy oh boy mad_jock, you do brighten up my dull office environment. I would love to have a good session with you!
I think people need to wake up to the fact that Oxford are no longer the force they once were. Some people will obviously never wake up to that fact. There is so much choice now days for the consumer and considering alternative avenues will leave you with a lot more change that you can use wisely on the real things that will hopefully lead to a job. Get a TR! Get an instructors rating! Put yourself about!
I think people need to wake up to the fact that Oxford are no longer the force they once were. Some people will obviously never wake up to that fact. There is so much choice now days for the consumer and considering alternative avenues will leave you with a lot more change that you can use wisely on the real things that will hopefully lead to a job. Get a TR! Get an instructors rating! Put yourself about!
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fair enough getting an instructors rating, but how many instructors jobs are there realistically? the amount of pilots graduated in the last year i doubt many have got jobs, and if they all get instructors ratings, where are they all going to instruct?
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Well if you stay in the south of England proberly its going to be a struggle. Mainly because there doesn't seem to be the same movement of instructors up the ladder.
All of last years instructors in Dundee have now got airline jobs.
At Aberdeen they had 8 instructors i think there is only 1 left now.
Highland last years full time instructor is now airline and the other part time instructor has just got a job flying a 406. The current full time instructor has now over 700 hours and is doing his IR MCC etc so would expect him to be off some time this summer with about 1200hrs under his belt.
Its all being willing to be fexible move to where the jobs are and working your arse off.
Apart from which Instructing is bloody good fun.
MJ
All of last years instructors in Dundee have now got airline jobs.
At Aberdeen they had 8 instructors i think there is only 1 left now.
Highland last years full time instructor is now airline and the other part time instructor has just got a job flying a 406. The current full time instructor has now over 700 hours and is doing his IR MCC etc so would expect him to be off some time this summer with about 1200hrs under his belt.
Its all being willing to be fexible move to where the jobs are and working your arse off.
Apart from which Instructing is bloody good fun.
MJ
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thanx for clearing that up for me mad_jock. im very scared after reading this thread thats all... im due to start at ox within the next few months!!
i suppose i should just work as hard as i can then save up build some hours instructing as much as i can afford when i leave!
as for lofty he seems ok to the new recruits and quite helpful in that respect, hopefully their career department is sorted by the time i need it in 20 months or so-cos it doesnt sound that positive from reading this thread!!
i suppose i should just work as hard as i can then save up build some hours instructing as much as i can afford when i leave!
as for lofty he seems ok to the new recruits and quite helpful in that respect, hopefully their career department is sorted by the time i need it in 20 months or so-cos it doesnt sound that positive from reading this thread!!
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See thats the beauty of instructing. Flying and being payed for it.
Other thing to note is that you should really want to instruct.
There is nothing worse than an Instructor that is a pure hour builder. Remember you are in the same position now as you punters to be. If you don't like the idea of instructing or find the thought of somebody throwing you at the runway doing their best to get the nose wheel down first, awful don't do it. But if like myself you get agreat buzz outa passing on the knowedge you have learned and being able to laugh and take the piss whatever the student does to you. Instructing is for you.
As for lofty he is a pleasant enough bloke who I presume is doing the best of a bad situation. In the current climate his job is proberly the worst in the place. All oxfords old customer base (ie airlines) is drying up.
for example.
BA, don't have to say much there.
BMI, more than enough Kiwi's and Aussies with passports from grandparents.
And the airlines who are expanding are run by people who don't know what the oxford product is or were modular/self improver themselves and prefer the self improver instructor development of a pilot.
And the others don't give a toss how you got your license as long as your CV has CPL/IR MCC on it.
So now that OAT old companys are falling on bad times they are struggling to produce the goods after you graduate.
And do you realise that if you did your groundschool full time while doing the modular you could actually get the whole lot done in about 11 months. It would be bloody hard work but would cost 75% of what OAT are charging for intergrated.
PPL 3 weeks.
Phase 1 - 6weeks self study 2 weeks brush up 1 week exams
Straight off to hour building after exams 50hrs - 3weeks
Phase 2 - 6 weeks self study 2 weeks brush up. 1 week exams
Wait to make sure you have all of the exams. 4 weeks
Finish off the rest of your hour building and do your MEP and night training in the the last 20 hours this also goes towards your 150 hours. 5 weeks
CPL/IR in which ever order you think suits. 10 weeks
MCC - 2 weeks
If you did your FI that would be another 8 weeks on top
so thats 37 weeks the biggest hurdle to keeping on time is the ground exams if you don't pass them first time its at least 8 weeks per resit which you would also have to do if you were intergrated.
At UK prices
PPL -4k
Hour build @70 quid an hour 100hrs 7k
Mep training 2.5K 5 hours of your hour build
Night .5k
Ground school 4k including exams
CPL 3k
IR 12K
Flight tests plus hire 3k
MCC 2k
FI 5k
So thats 43k for cpl/ir MEP and FI and say 8 k living expenses. which will proberly be less because ou can stay at home for the ground school.
So for 51k you can come out with more ratings more hours in your log book in nearly half the time of intergrated. And thats doing it all in the UK. If you decided to go to the US or SA the price will drop by about 5k.
MJ
Other thing to note is that you should really want to instruct.
There is nothing worse than an Instructor that is a pure hour builder. Remember you are in the same position now as you punters to be. If you don't like the idea of instructing or find the thought of somebody throwing you at the runway doing their best to get the nose wheel down first, awful don't do it. But if like myself you get agreat buzz outa passing on the knowedge you have learned and being able to laugh and take the piss whatever the student does to you. Instructing is for you.
As for lofty he is a pleasant enough bloke who I presume is doing the best of a bad situation. In the current climate his job is proberly the worst in the place. All oxfords old customer base (ie airlines) is drying up.
for example.
BA, don't have to say much there.
BMI, more than enough Kiwi's and Aussies with passports from grandparents.
And the airlines who are expanding are run by people who don't know what the oxford product is or were modular/self improver themselves and prefer the self improver instructor development of a pilot.
And the others don't give a toss how you got your license as long as your CV has CPL/IR MCC on it.
So now that OAT old companys are falling on bad times they are struggling to produce the goods after you graduate.
And do you realise that if you did your groundschool full time while doing the modular you could actually get the whole lot done in about 11 months. It would be bloody hard work but would cost 75% of what OAT are charging for intergrated.
PPL 3 weeks.
Phase 1 - 6weeks self study 2 weeks brush up 1 week exams
Straight off to hour building after exams 50hrs - 3weeks
Phase 2 - 6 weeks self study 2 weeks brush up. 1 week exams
Wait to make sure you have all of the exams. 4 weeks
Finish off the rest of your hour building and do your MEP and night training in the the last 20 hours this also goes towards your 150 hours. 5 weeks
CPL/IR in which ever order you think suits. 10 weeks
MCC - 2 weeks
If you did your FI that would be another 8 weeks on top
so thats 37 weeks the biggest hurdle to keeping on time is the ground exams if you don't pass them first time its at least 8 weeks per resit which you would also have to do if you were intergrated.
At UK prices
PPL -4k
Hour build @70 quid an hour 100hrs 7k
Mep training 2.5K 5 hours of your hour build
Night .5k
Ground school 4k including exams
CPL 3k
IR 12K
Flight tests plus hire 3k
MCC 2k
FI 5k
So thats 43k for cpl/ir MEP and FI and say 8 k living expenses. which will proberly be less because ou can stay at home for the ground school.
So for 51k you can come out with more ratings more hours in your log book in nearly half the time of intergrated. And thats doing it all in the UK. If you decided to go to the US or SA the price will drop by about 5k.
MJ
Last edited by mad_jock; 19th Feb 2004 at 17:06.
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MJ knows the score
Having read this thread through from the beggining you can see that there has been a digression away from the original post.
I am not an ex-Oxford student but know many who went and I have never known so many people to have such a variety of complaints about an FTO, but thats another thread.
Seems to me that the "careers" department is a hollow promise purely there to glam up the appearence of OAT for potential punters.
I.E. "this building is where you do the training and if you go through that door, thats where we hand out the airline jobs afterwards". WHAT A LOAD OF BO***KS .
Unfortunately for Oxford the good old days of 509vBCPL are long gone and after a bit of a lag/histeresis the airlines now understand that however you obtained your license is of little importance (as long as you got one).
Time and time again I speak to people who have spent good time and effort researching the miriad of FTO's to get the best deal only to go to one of the big schools for fear of hindering there prospects of employment. If i'm perfectly honest I was a little unsure as to wether my decision was a good one to go modular.
I now know that my fears were unfounded and I am pleased that I listened to the advice of people who knew the REAL story and that I didn't fall for the glossy, epaulette wearing rubbish that is churned out in all the magazines with rediculous regularity!!!
As mad_Jock so very nicely said, the airlines are showing a trend for hiring instructors again rather than low hours pilots who havn't flown for 6 months or have done very little flying in say the last year.
At a rescent sim ride that I attended (and passed I am pleased to add) all four of the candidates were instructors with 1000+ hours there were no low hour guys present at all.
My point is be smart with your cash, do your training with good schools with good recommendations from past students and not ones that spend the most on advertising.
Without trying to sound patronising, OAT is a business and a very large one at that, you are effectively a number and once they've had your cash thats the end of the road as far as they're concerned. Don't fall for it, send c.v's, put yourself around, build your hours, make contacts, make your own luck and you'll find a job but don't think for a minute that Oxford give a toss about the individual student they dont!!!
JarJam
I am not an ex-Oxford student but know many who went and I have never known so many people to have such a variety of complaints about an FTO, but thats another thread.
Seems to me that the "careers" department is a hollow promise purely there to glam up the appearence of OAT for potential punters.
I.E. "this building is where you do the training and if you go through that door, thats where we hand out the airline jobs afterwards". WHAT A LOAD OF BO***KS .
Unfortunately for Oxford the good old days of 509vBCPL are long gone and after a bit of a lag/histeresis the airlines now understand that however you obtained your license is of little importance (as long as you got one).
Time and time again I speak to people who have spent good time and effort researching the miriad of FTO's to get the best deal only to go to one of the big schools for fear of hindering there prospects of employment. If i'm perfectly honest I was a little unsure as to wether my decision was a good one to go modular.
I now know that my fears were unfounded and I am pleased that I listened to the advice of people who knew the REAL story and that I didn't fall for the glossy, epaulette wearing rubbish that is churned out in all the magazines with rediculous regularity!!!
As mad_Jock so very nicely said, the airlines are showing a trend for hiring instructors again rather than low hours pilots who havn't flown for 6 months or have done very little flying in say the last year.
At a rescent sim ride that I attended (and passed I am pleased to add) all four of the candidates were instructors with 1000+ hours there were no low hour guys present at all.
My point is be smart with your cash, do your training with good schools with good recommendations from past students and not ones that spend the most on advertising.
Without trying to sound patronising, OAT is a business and a very large one at that, you are effectively a number and once they've had your cash thats the end of the road as far as they're concerned. Don't fall for it, send c.v's, put yourself around, build your hours, make contacts, make your own luck and you'll find a job but don't think for a minute that Oxford give a toss about the individual student they dont!!!
JarJam