I think 'Reality Checks' post was excellent and highlighted the underlying theme to this Post. As for Rupertpupkin is bear baiting and is trying to get many to start a slanging match which thankfully hasn't bourne any fruit. This is not about a personal attack on Mike and I seem to remember Oxford being very nice to me when they wanted 8k towards the Instrument Rating up front....so it works both ways!
I think it easy for us to turn around and say many should have investigated their options further. For some the full time structured aspect of Integrated is their best option and a lot cannot leave their families to go to Spain full time that leaves precious little options in the UK in terms of training providers.
It is true that Oxford once had many major UK Operators turn to them for training but sadly the day of full sponsorships are long gone. Oxford have had to change their business model to be more in line with the current trend. I should think that the CTC and APP Forumlae will be the norm from now on with students funding all or part of the training and the risk being taken away from the airlines. Airlines will have a pool of tangilble 'quality' low hour fresh faced pilots to call on as and when they need them rather than fund what they see as a shortfall in their pilot numbers.
I am sure that in the next boom Oxford will have customers for its APP Scheme but at the moment they do not and that is not the information that is being portrayed. Many I saw being shown around were with their parents/sponsors who probably know little about aviation and to be told by an establishment such as Oxford that they have a dedicated career department and have links with may of the major airlines, these airlines used to use us blah blah would swing the vote for many be that naive or not.
The fact that we as ex-students are emailed asking for our info and photos, not to apply direct to partner airlines (and some are a 'Mystery') and that FlyBe have an exclusive recruitment contract with Oxford then two weeks later FlyBe go to Cabair for their sponsorship scheme makes me angry and that they are patently lying.
No-One is saying that by going there you ought to be owed anything, but the point about the guy that may have been a training risk and this was delivered by Mike whom I bet just read his training report and never knew the guy personally is bordering on criminal.
The Career Development dept. of any training organisation would have a tough job gaining a good reputation in today's climate. CTC could be seen as elitist and they place people they have actually assesed to a standard that their partner airlines have recognized at an advanced level, namely the MCC/AQC. Oxford give grass roots training that many airlines merely see as the absolute basics you need for the job. What airlines are interested in and needs to be proven, and CTC Do, is assess that this person can operate in a two crew enviroment, efficiently and competently under emergency situations and handle a jet in a minimum of cost to them in terms of specific training and further line training.
In essence Oxford are trying to overtrain people at a too a early stage and flog them off to airlines to finish off the most expensive and cruicial part of training and at a time when there isn't too much benefit to be gained from judging them. So, APP guys visit the SEP Centre at BA and go on Day release to help build a plastic igloo in an underpriviliged estate in Oxford 'for the kids', well big deal. That is not going to make people better FO's, and most if not all of us are going to have to work in a two crew enviroment first job or get 700 hours for Single Pilot IFR Work and the only way to do that is instruct. I dont think instructing is the dream many have when they rock up to their first day on the APP scheme, not that I am slamming instructors.
The MCC course at present is merely an attendance course and in my view under-utilised by many people and organisations since most airlines are demanding it as a prerequisite to entry. What CTC have done well is assess people on this basis at the very end of their training over the course of about a month to some handling standards above that of a Type rating. This coupled with their IR, CPL and Ground Exam results give the best overview you are going to get in terms of a Low Hours FO and often means that airlines dont even have to sim ride you, not that you failed PT4 at Oxford and got less than 90% in your ground exams so represent a training risk.....Cheers Mike, Nice1!
Until Oxford offer type ratings as part of their training package their APP Scheme will be nearly useless since airlines will still have to take these guys and assess them themselves and train them at a further cost maybe to bloggs student or indeed themselves, rather than take a Type rated guy from CTC who has been vetted and assessed to an agreed standard..who cares where he has done his training as long he is the kind of guy/girl they are looking for and can handle the aircraft and company culture which is what has been proved at CTC. That is what is important to sirlines not how flash the new FNPT King Air/Seneca sims are and where you go on day release to help needy kids.
This is not what is being told to people, but then if I was trying to sell Integrated courses at 10 grand above the going rate, I wouldn't say that either, so I can see why they highlight the 'benefits' of their scheme; just not the way they are selling people false dreams.
Last edited by TRon; 10th Feb 2004 at 04:58.