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IFR is completly different to sole use of flight instruments if they had wanted sole use of flight instruments they would have said. As they have done in other requirements. If you fly in controlled airspace you can't log IFR while under a SVFR clearance but if you fly in class G you can because you are cleared on a IFR departure clearance "cleared to depart IFR with your own responsability for terrian clearance" If you refuse the clearance you don't go so you MUST be IFR and if you are IFR you can log it.
And the TRE who did my type rating said to log all PF flights as PICUS and also the company CP so I will run with their advice.
And as other FO's have been issued with the green book by doing this I am not going to worry.
MJ
Sorry just re-read your last post. Under JAR we don't have instrument flying hours. We only have IFR entrys all the regs are now changed listing IFR hours apart from a few which actually state sole use of instruments. ie the instructors ones.
And i have a suspision that the definition of PICUS is different to the old one for P1US.
I presume it all had to change after the change away from CAP509 courses etc. If FO's couldn't log PICUS there would be no way they could ever become command (with out hour building) because some of the intergrated chaps are coming out of school with 160 hrs with very little PIC or P1 time. If they went straight multi crew they would be stumped as some of them don't even have a SEP rating only a MEP CPL/IR.
And the TRE who did my type rating said to log all PF flights as PICUS and also the company CP so I will run with their advice.
And as other FO's have been issued with the green book by doing this I am not going to worry.
MJ
Sorry just re-read your last post. Under JAR we don't have instrument flying hours. We only have IFR entrys all the regs are now changed listing IFR hours apart from a few which actually state sole use of instruments. ie the instructors ones.
And i have a suspision that the definition of PICUS is different to the old one for P1US.
I presume it all had to change after the change away from CAP509 courses etc. If FO's couldn't log PICUS there would be no way they could ever become command (with out hour building) because some of the intergrated chaps are coming out of school with 160 hrs with very little PIC or P1 time. If they went straight multi crew they would be stumped as some of them don't even have a SEP rating only a MEP CPL/IR.
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th Apr 2004 at 12:52.
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I can't see why the CAA, for the purposes of licence issue, would be interested in IFR time. What they are interested in is Instrument Flying.
CAP 407 states that for logbook entries:
"The column headed Instrument Flying is provided in order that flight time during which the holder manipulated the flying controls solely by reference to instruments...."
If hours-building pilots have log books which have "IFR" columns they must be careful not to log information in there which could mislead the CAA in to thinking that it is Instrument Flying.
However, the CAA no doubt assume that by any entries you make under "IFR", you are trying to tell them this is your Instrument Flying column.
The previous poster quoted from LASORS which re-affirms the P1 U/S issue. I have come across people time and time again making this mistake or encouraging it, be they low time FO's or Chief Pilots, but LASORS states otherwise.
If you wish to make a record of what PF / PNF sectors you fly, do so in the Remarks column.
How can the FO, whilst PF, be in command of the flight? He is handling it, not commanding it. Unless he is being trained AS A CAPTAIN by another CAPTAIN.
CAP 407 states that for logbook entries:
"The column headed Instrument Flying is provided in order that flight time during which the holder manipulated the flying controls solely by reference to instruments...."
If hours-building pilots have log books which have "IFR" columns they must be careful not to log information in there which could mislead the CAA in to thinking that it is Instrument Flying.
However, the CAA no doubt assume that by any entries you make under "IFR", you are trying to tell them this is your Instrument Flying column.
The previous poster quoted from LASORS which re-affirms the P1 U/S issue. I have come across people time and time again making this mistake or encouraging it, be they low time FO's or Chief Pilots, but LASORS states otherwise.
If you wish to make a record of what PF / PNF sectors you fly, do so in the Remarks column.
How can the FO, whilst PF, be in command of the flight? He is handling it, not commanding it. Unless he is being trained AS A CAPTAIN by another CAPTAIN.
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TFMONTY
Let me know which Air Taxi operators are having problems I will gladly send them my CV as will about a dozen other CPL/IR pilots I know who already far exceed the existing requirements.
Or is this just uncorroborated Bullsh*t combined with wishfull thinking.
I hope this isn't true as standards are already low enough with people gaining CPL/IR and virtually no solo time and only two cross country flights to their name.
jsf
Let me know which Air Taxi operators are having problems I will gladly send them my CV as will about a dozen other CPL/IR pilots I know who already far exceed the existing requirements.
Or is this just uncorroborated Bullsh*t combined with wishfull thinking.
I hope this isn't true as standards are already low enough with people gaining CPL/IR and virtually no solo time and only two cross country flights to their name.
jsf
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If you look at lasors 2004 section A appendix B
Operational conditions
A) Night
B) IFR
Nothing at all about sole use of instruments. And as i said previously you can log both at the same time if cleared IFR or only night if you are under SVFR.
Recording of pilot function time.
Point 1e with note to note 5 And you will note it definatly says co-pilot. It does state that the entry must be signed by the commander. But as an ex Instructor I have more than enough PIC time without having to count the PICUS I have declared. I presume they are a bit more strict with Integrated course straight to multicrew pilots.
The instrument flight time is to be recorded in the remarks column as directed by the * comment at the bottom. Which i did when doing my IR course. But must admit havn't bothered to do since as no ratings I wish to obtain have a sole use of instruments requirment. Which also backs up the IFR actually means Instrument flight rules not flight using Instruments only. Otherwise the wouldn't have bothered with the note.
Which is exactly how my jeppy logbook instructs you to do it.
MJ
edited to add lasors 2004 link it takes bloody ages to load so stick with it.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
Operational conditions
A) Night
B) IFR
Nothing at all about sole use of instruments. And as i said previously you can log both at the same time if cleared IFR or only night if you are under SVFR.
Recording of pilot function time.
Point 1e with note to note 5 And you will note it definatly says co-pilot. It does state that the entry must be signed by the commander. But as an ex Instructor I have more than enough PIC time without having to count the PICUS I have declared. I presume they are a bit more strict with Integrated course straight to multicrew pilots.
The instrument flight time is to be recorded in the remarks column as directed by the * comment at the bottom. Which i did when doing my IR course. But must admit havn't bothered to do since as no ratings I wish to obtain have a sole use of instruments requirment. Which also backs up the IFR actually means Instrument flight rules not flight using Instruments only. Otherwise the wouldn't have bothered with the note.
Which is exactly how my jeppy logbook instructs you to do it.
MJ
edited to add lasors 2004 link it takes bloody ages to load so stick with it.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th Apr 2004 at 14:18.
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CATAWAMPUS is correct. I spoke to FCL a while back and was advised as a FO to log all time as P2, otherwise known as CoPilot (for good reason) in my JAR-FCL logbook. Unless you have minimum hours for licence issue, it's academic. Different logbooks set out different ways of logging time and it can be a bast*rd going thru them to work out the various requirements the CAA specify at various stages of application. Lost count of the number of times I've been thru my logbooks, CPL, IR, FI, MEP CRI, IRI, ATPL etc. Always a nightmare, but there's one hard and fast rule - don't fudge the hours as it can and may well catch up with you!! For that reason it helps to have in excess of the minimums - looks less suspicious. I waited a while for ATPL issue - nearer 600 hours multi crew for that very reason, and well over 2000hrs total. That way the CAA are not going to argue. In terms of the old curly - odds and ends like 2 pilot air taxi in a single pilot a/c, my NZ logbook has a 'column 16' for additional hours that you may wish to record, but you don't add them to total time. I suggest that you could make the remarks column in a JAR logbook serve the same purpose - very useful when you're an old pilot looking back on your bolder days.
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Its not just about the hours. I work as an FI for a charter organisation and get the occasional trip as 'pilot assistant' in a Beech 200 King Air...a turboprop. This requires a type rating to log any time. But as a pilot assistant I gain valuable experience of international airports (Schipol, Dublin,) and operations. All good experience...but not logable. It does however go on my CV in an attempt to raise me above the rest (not working so far!)
I did go as far as asking my boss if 'I paid for a B200 type rating would he give me a job'. He said the problem is that the operation is single pilot so I would not only need the minimum hours described above, but also real multi turbine time to satisfy the insurance requirements (500 was mentioned).
So it is chicken and egg. You need to join an airline to get the multiturbine time....but the airlines wont have me as I have not enough twin time! Only way to serious charter work is via the airlines.
Air taxi on light twins (401, 406 etc) is different, but the insurers would still want to see a decent amount of time on twins before letting you loose as P1 on public transport.
My own opinion is that air taxi is not the game it was ...and is certainly not an easy route into the airlines as taxi jobs would appear to be rarer than airline jobs! The good news? Many of these jobs are taken by airline pilots who are tired of the routine of scheduled flying....thus creating jobs in the airlines. Well that's the theory....
I did go as far as asking my boss if 'I paid for a B200 type rating would he give me a job'. He said the problem is that the operation is single pilot so I would not only need the minimum hours described above, but also real multi turbine time to satisfy the insurance requirements (500 was mentioned).
So it is chicken and egg. You need to join an airline to get the multiturbine time....but the airlines wont have me as I have not enough twin time! Only way to serious charter work is via the airlines.
Air taxi on light twins (401, 406 etc) is different, but the insurers would still want to see a decent amount of time on twins before letting you loose as P1 on public transport.
My own opinion is that air taxi is not the game it was ...and is certainly not an easy route into the airlines as taxi jobs would appear to be rarer than airline jobs! The good news? Many of these jobs are taken by airline pilots who are tired of the routine of scheduled flying....thus creating jobs in the airlines. Well that's the theory....
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Been away for a week, so missed the first part of the post. I am not a pilot, but run a MEP operation under a UK AOC. These are the rules for my operation, can't coment on anyone else'.
Total time required to operate MEP single crew 400 hours TT (the CAA will offer exemption from the 700 hrs requirement)
Total time to operate specific contracts MEP VFR, 250 hrs TT.
However. If I expect you to jump in a Seneca at MTOW, fly to Scandinavia in the middle of the night, you would need to be a pilot of a certain type. So dont expect the 400 hrs / or indeed the 250 hrs positions to be offered to any Tom Dick or Rupert. We have the hours reduced to enable us to employ pilots with above average aptitude, that we have a good knowledge of.
To this end, for the 250 hour VFR contracts we almost exclusively offer pilots who have trained with us (BFC) or have worked the Ops desk whilst flying the dead sectors on some charters. These guys then can fly IFR ops when they get enough hours, kind of like an unofficial fugly scheme.
Generally, if we are taking pilots that we don't know, we would require between 500 and 700 TT depending on what relevant experience they have.
Phil
Total time required to operate MEP single crew 400 hours TT (the CAA will offer exemption from the 700 hrs requirement)
Total time to operate specific contracts MEP VFR, 250 hrs TT.
However. If I expect you to jump in a Seneca at MTOW, fly to Scandinavia in the middle of the night, you would need to be a pilot of a certain type. So dont expect the 400 hrs / or indeed the 250 hrs positions to be offered to any Tom Dick or Rupert. We have the hours reduced to enable us to employ pilots with above average aptitude, that we have a good knowledge of.
To this end, for the 250 hour VFR contracts we almost exclusively offer pilots who have trained with us (BFC) or have worked the Ops desk whilst flying the dead sectors on some charters. These guys then can fly IFR ops when they get enough hours, kind of like an unofficial fugly scheme.
Generally, if we are taking pilots that we don't know, we would require between 500 and 700 TT depending on what relevant experience they have.
Phil
