700 hours
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700 hours
Hiya,
I don't get the 700 hours rule, is it for pilots on single pilot operational aircraft used for public use? Does that mean that if someone is chartering an aircraft for personnel use, ie. business, that a pilot can get a job flying this with less than 700 hours?
Any clarification much appreciated!
Thanks
richard
I don't get the 700 hours rule, is it for pilots on single pilot operational aircraft used for public use? Does that mean that if someone is chartering an aircraft for personnel use, ie. business, that a pilot can get a job flying this with less than 700 hours?
Any clarification much appreciated!
Thanks
richard
Why do it if it's not fun?
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From JAR-OPS (on page 129 of this document):
(a)(1)(ii) of this rule is the one which is being referred to here. However, until about 5 minutes ago when I was looking for this quote to paste it here, I'd never heard of rule (a)(1)(i) before - interesting........
N.b - this rule is part of JAR-OPS, and so only applies to commercial operations. There is nothing stopping you acting as pilot in command of an aircraft under IFR for a private flight with less than 700 hours, since JAR-OPS doesn't apply to these flights. Does that answer the question?
FFF
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JAR–OPS 1.960 Commanders holding a Commercial Pilot Licence
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
(1) A Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) holder does not operate as a commander of an aeroplane certificated in the Aeroplane Flight Manual for single pilot operations unless:
(i) When conducting passenger carrying operations under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid Instrument Rating; or
(ii) When operating on a multiengine type under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of 700 hours total flight time on aeroplanes which includes 400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with JAR FCL) of which 100 hours have been under IFR including 40 hours multi-engine operation. The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command provided those hours were gained within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the Operations Manual
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
(1) A Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) holder does not operate as a commander of an aeroplane certificated in the Aeroplane Flight Manual for single pilot operations unless:
(i) When conducting passenger carrying operations under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid Instrument Rating; or
(ii) When operating on a multiengine type under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of 700 hours total flight time on aeroplanes which includes 400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with JAR FCL) of which 100 hours have been under IFR including 40 hours multi-engine operation. The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command provided those hours were gained within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the Operations Manual
N.b - this rule is part of JAR-OPS, and so only applies to commercial operations. There is nothing stopping you acting as pilot in command of an aircraft under IFR for a private flight with less than 700 hours, since JAR-OPS doesn't apply to these flights. Does that answer the question?
FFF
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Ok thanks, so in othr words, in order to get your first job flying for reward, weather its pax or cargo, you need 700 hours. How did the guys flying commercially build up 700 hours? Flight instruction?
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Nope, that's just a fancy name for a CPL/IR with the exams done to ATPL standard.
The actual licence is still a CPL.
fATPL is great... you spend Ł40k flying single-pilot in piston aircraft and then find out you're not actually qualified to do so commercially!
The actual licence is still a CPL.
fATPL is great... you spend Ł40k flying single-pilot in piston aircraft and then find out you're not actually qualified to do so commercially!
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Does anybody know if flying the caravan C406 as a second pilot the time is logged as P2 or as P1 U/S?Is the minimum crew two pilots on that aircraft or one?Is there any information published on CAA website about the definition of P2,P1 u/s and also about whether a type rating is needed or not on an airplane in order to log P1?Any help on that will be greatly appreciated.
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As I understand it, if the aircraft is certified for 'single crew' opereation and you act as a second pilot you cannot log the time. There are, however occassions when the operation requires two crew operation and when authorised by the authority the second pilot can log that time (P2 I would guess.) I suspect the C406 is certified for single crew operation, but have not checked.
P1 U/S is not for second pilot operation per se, it's when acting as Pilot Flying on a two crew certified aircraft when you are not the commander. ie An airline F/O flying the sector logs P1U/S and P2 when he is PNF.
I don't see how you can log P1 time on an aircraft if you are not qualified to fly it. The only exception I can think of is when on test, where if successful you can retrospectively log the time as P1.
Hope this helps
PP
P1 U/S is not for second pilot operation per se, it's when acting as Pilot Flying on a two crew certified aircraft when you are not the commander. ie An airline F/O flying the sector logs P1U/S and P2 when he is PNF.
I don't see how you can log P1 time on an aircraft if you are not qualified to fly it. The only exception I can think of is when on test, where if successful you can retrospectively log the time as P1.
Hope this helps
PP
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"P1 U/S is not for second pilot operation per se, it's when acting as Pilot Flying on a two crew certified aircraft when you are not the commander. ie An airline F/O flying the sector logs P1U/S and P2 when he is PNF."
I am 99% sure this is incorrect. An FO always logs his time as P2, regardless whether he is PF or PNF. P1/S is logged if you are acting as "commander under supervision" such as a Captain getting a line check in the left or right seat.
An FO is never in command of the aircraft, so cannot possibly log P1/S. Handling the aircraft (PF) has nothing to do with commanding the flight.
Or have I missed something years ago not logging half my FO time as "in command" P1/S?
I am 99% sure this is incorrect. An FO always logs his time as P2, regardless whether he is PF or PNF. P1/S is logged if you are acting as "commander under supervision" such as a Captain getting a line check in the left or right seat.
An FO is never in command of the aircraft, so cannot possibly log P1/S. Handling the aircraft (PF) has nothing to do with commanding the flight.
Or have I missed something years ago not logging half my FO time as "in command" P1/S?
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Just to add to FFF's post:
The rule applies to public transport ops - aerial work is not included in the ruling, so there's nothing stopping you from flying (for example) a F406, single pilot IFR with less than 700 hrs.
The rule applies to public transport ops - aerial work is not included in the ruling, so there's nothing stopping you from flying (for example) a F406, single pilot IFR with less than 700 hrs.
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P1 U/S
A misconception that you can automatically log it as an FO when handling the aircraft ie. PF.
If you look in Lasors, that highly distinguished missive from the CAA, you will find the definition.
Basically, to act as P1 U/S you have to make all the comand decisions and make all the commanders actions. Hence the right to log a successful flight test this way, ie. the examiner may as well not have been there.
It would require an FO to make all decisions re. fuel etc, brief all the crew, sign the loadsheet (most companys wouldn't allow that!), make all command decisions without any input from the P1, etc. At the end of such flight the captain must endorse the FO's logbook to reflect this.
In real terms, this never happens unless for instance, you are an FO upgrading to Captain flying with a Line Trainer.
Hmmmm.
A misconception that you can automatically log it as an FO when handling the aircraft ie. PF.
If you look in Lasors, that highly distinguished missive from the CAA, you will find the definition.
Basically, to act as P1 U/S you have to make all the comand decisions and make all the commanders actions. Hence the right to log a successful flight test this way, ie. the examiner may as well not have been there.
It would require an FO to make all decisions re. fuel etc, brief all the crew, sign the loadsheet (most companys wouldn't allow that!), make all command decisions without any input from the P1, etc. At the end of such flight the captain must endorse the FO's logbook to reflect this.
In real terms, this never happens unless for instance, you are an FO upgrading to Captain flying with a Line Trainer.
Hmmmm.
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Correct me if I am wrong on this but for CPL issue you require 100 hours P1. For ATPL issue you need 250 hours P1, which can include 150 hours P1 U/S (as i read it). Now if you cant log any time as F/O as P1 U/S then you can join an airline with a CPL and minimum hours, fly for that airline for thousands of hours as F/O but never have the necessary P1 hours to upgrade to a full ATPL.
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Looks that way. If the airline allows you to operate as P1 U/S, and I suspect smaller operators may be more flexible, then there wouldn't be an issue. For most of us we have to go out and get the hours any which way. I remember night flying just to get sufficient hours for ATP issue - costly but worth it in the end.
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All very interesting.
Can you log this one....
A privately owned and operated N-reg citation jet (OK for single crew) flying in the UK. The Owner/Operator has the rating to fly on his own but prefers to have someone sat next to him. If you or I were to aid his flight, Can that detail be logged as P2? If not how can it be? Any ideas?.
Can you log this one....
A privately owned and operated N-reg citation jet (OK for single crew) flying in the UK. The Owner/Operator has the rating to fly on his own but prefers to have someone sat next to him. If you or I were to aid his flight, Can that detail be logged as P2? If not how can it be? Any ideas?.
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You can't log any hours under UK rules dreamingA380.
Its a scam that some american companys use to fleece UK wannabies. Under FAA rules you can log it but the CAA won't play at all.
To be honest unless you are loaded the only real way of getting single crew ops is to be a FI and either get your students to do all there XC's under IFR rules in VMC or log all your night time as IFR.
Then build MEP time in the states on some clapped out **** heap.
I havn't of anyone recently who has gone down that route since JAR ops was required. The only people I have seen do the switch have been atlantic fuglys who have done multi crew time on J31's after there fugly stint. Then been made C406 Captains.
Remember its only for pax operations in IFR. If you can find a frieght operator you could still fly for them if their insurance will let you. But then again a MEP freight operator willing to take a 220hr CPL/IR will be like finding rockinghorse poo.
MJ
PS interesting to note about the PICUS issue. I must admit I don't bother getting the captain to sign my log book. After a year instructing and doing about 25% of my flying at night during this winter I only need to build Multicrew time and get a sim check done. The other FO's I know who were direct entrys from CPL/IR school havn't bothered either and have just got a letter off the ops director saying their log book was correct. They had no probs with getting an ATPL.
Its a scam that some american companys use to fleece UK wannabies. Under FAA rules you can log it but the CAA won't play at all.
To be honest unless you are loaded the only real way of getting single crew ops is to be a FI and either get your students to do all there XC's under IFR rules in VMC or log all your night time as IFR.
Then build MEP time in the states on some clapped out **** heap.
I havn't of anyone recently who has gone down that route since JAR ops was required. The only people I have seen do the switch have been atlantic fuglys who have done multi crew time on J31's after there fugly stint. Then been made C406 Captains.
Remember its only for pax operations in IFR. If you can find a frieght operator you could still fly for them if their insurance will let you. But then again a MEP freight operator willing to take a 220hr CPL/IR will be like finding rockinghorse poo.
MJ
PS interesting to note about the PICUS issue. I must admit I don't bother getting the captain to sign my log book. After a year instructing and doing about 25% of my flying at night during this winter I only need to build Multicrew time and get a sim check done. The other FO's I know who were direct entrys from CPL/IR school havn't bothered either and have just got a letter off the ops director saying their log book was correct. They had no probs with getting an ATPL.
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th Apr 2004 at 09:40.
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"or log all your night time as IFR."
"IFR" hours cannot be logged in duplicate alongside "Night" (I assume you mean for purposes of instrument flying hours) unless the flight is conducted with sole reference to instruments.
ie Night jollies round the circuit or from A to B to C etc. nav ex's using ground references must not be logged in the IFR column if you are trying to tell the CAA that this is your "instrument flying" column.
Captain's counter signature is only required if the FO was being trained initially or recurrently as a Captain by another Captain, and the "FO" was running the flight.
So P1 U/S should rarely appear at all in a FO's log book, doesn't matter if he/she is holding the stick.
FO's always log P2.
I always did.
"IFR" hours cannot be logged in duplicate alongside "Night" (I assume you mean for purposes of instrument flying hours) unless the flight is conducted with sole reference to instruments.
ie Night jollies round the circuit or from A to B to C etc. nav ex's using ground references must not be logged in the IFR column if you are trying to tell the CAA that this is your "instrument flying" column.
Captain's counter signature is only required if the FO was being trained initially or recurrently as a Captain by another Captain, and the "FO" was running the flight.
So P1 U/S should rarely appear at all in a FO's log book, doesn't matter if he/she is holding the stick.
FO's always log P2.
I always did.