B737 job at Global Aviation Solutions?
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"Is there a violin player in the house ?!"
.... as it would seem that Stratocaster needs some accompaniment.
Aside - might I in advance appologise for any typo's in this reply but I'm laughing so hard at the self-pity exhibited by strato's response above that I can hardly type for the tears.
Q). What does one say to an unemployed Aer Turas / Crossair / Swissair / Sabena / Air Lib / HeavyLift / Aeris / GoodJet pilot ? ( delete as appropriate )
A). "Big MaC and fries please mate !"
Strato, just because one might have a certain qualifications does not mean that the world owes one a living, and sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring certain commercial realities does not make the nasty commercial beast go away.
W.r.t There are different ways to run an airline and keep it afloat - really, then name some - wherein it certainly doesn't seem to have worked for those at Aer Turas / Crossair / Swissair / Sabena / Air Lib / HeavyLift / Aeris / GoodJet, has it ?
At least the pilot who has 'invested' in keeping current at his/her local flying club is keeping their hand-in ( it's got to be better than working at McD's ?! )
W.r.t. wives that have disappeared ( and taken the kids ) this was more probably because hubs was an a_rsehole than due to a lack of his pay cheque ( that just exasperated the fact ).
W.r.t. 'be careful and take a first-aid kit with you ( plus some of your earlier comments ), you seemingly work with a right bunch of thugs.
W.r.t. the bit about the +55 BA pilots, we've just taken some of them on, and all I can say is that they are highly experienced, well trained, total aviation people, and generally all round top blokes - which is precisely why we've taken them on.
Nuff said.
.... as it would seem that Stratocaster needs some accompaniment.
Aside - might I in advance appologise for any typo's in this reply but I'm laughing so hard at the self-pity exhibited by strato's response above that I can hardly type for the tears.
Q). What does one say to an unemployed Aer Turas / Crossair / Swissair / Sabena / Air Lib / HeavyLift / Aeris / GoodJet pilot ? ( delete as appropriate )
A). "Big MaC and fries please mate !"
Strato, just because one might have a certain qualifications does not mean that the world owes one a living, and sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring certain commercial realities does not make the nasty commercial beast go away.
W.r.t There are different ways to run an airline and keep it afloat - really, then name some - wherein it certainly doesn't seem to have worked for those at Aer Turas / Crossair / Swissair / Sabena / Air Lib / HeavyLift / Aeris / GoodJet, has it ?
At least the pilot who has 'invested' in keeping current at his/her local flying club is keeping their hand-in ( it's got to be better than working at McD's ?! )
W.r.t. wives that have disappeared ( and taken the kids ) this was more probably because hubs was an a_rsehole than due to a lack of his pay cheque ( that just exasperated the fact ).
W.r.t. 'be careful and take a first-aid kit with you ( plus some of your earlier comments ), you seemingly work with a right bunch of thugs.
W.r.t. the bit about the +55 BA pilots, we've just taken some of them on, and all I can say is that they are highly experienced, well trained, total aviation people, and generally all round top blokes - which is precisely why we've taken them on.
Nuff said.
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Stratocaster,
Please can you explain to me how Europe is becoming smaller. Reading other threads I had become of the opinon that the world, of which Europe is a part, had recently reverted to subsonic travel!
Please can you explain to me how Europe is becoming smaller. Reading other threads I had become of the opinon that the world, of which Europe is a part, had recently reverted to subsonic travel!
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Arrogance preceeds the fall, Your Lowness.
It's not very nice for me to say it, but I have to admit now I sincerely hope you're the next one to lose your job, your house, your pension, maybe your wife and kids (supposing you ever managed to get one of each of course), etc., and that you're also the next one who will have to go to the funeral of a collegue who killed himself because he was not strong enough to deal with the loss of what he liked the most: flying ! Do you know how that feels ? No, you don't have a clue, otherwise you wouldn't be talking like that. Then maybe you'll open your eyes, have some respect for the others and stop treating your collegues like trash.
By the way, regarding the BA pilots you hired (actually you answered a question to CH4, what a coincidence), do they still get their BA pension while they're working for you ? Do they have a reduced salary compared to the others ?
Opsman,
I enjoyed your sense of humour regarding the Concorde, so I guess I won't have to ask you if you've ever heard of high-speed trains and low-cost carriers ?
It's not very nice for me to say it, but I have to admit now I sincerely hope you're the next one to lose your job, your house, your pension, maybe your wife and kids (supposing you ever managed to get one of each of course), etc., and that you're also the next one who will have to go to the funeral of a collegue who killed himself because he was not strong enough to deal with the loss of what he liked the most: flying ! Do you know how that feels ? No, you don't have a clue, otherwise you wouldn't be talking like that. Then maybe you'll open your eyes, have some respect for the others and stop treating your collegues like trash.
By the way, regarding the BA pilots you hired (actually you answered a question to CH4, what a coincidence), do they still get their BA pension while they're working for you ? Do they have a reduced salary compared to the others ?
Opsman,
I enjoyed your sense of humour regarding the Concorde, so I guess I won't have to ask you if you've ever heard of high-speed trains and low-cost carriers ?
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Well it has only taken a few hours to trawl through all of that.
I have been looking at this scheme and it does have my interest.
I am curioius as to why there is such a problem with naming the airlines with which i am likely to end up working. CTC provide a list. While Global may hvae some reasons as to why, whether the are good or not is irrelevant, as whilst they continue to refuse to name their clients then there is always going to be an element of doubt until news breaks through of ppl being succesful via the scheme.
So do sit and wait to be sure? Or take a chance and be a trailblazer?
I have been looking at this scheme and it does have my interest.
I am curioius as to why there is such a problem with naming the airlines with which i am likely to end up working. CTC provide a list. While Global may hvae some reasons as to why, whether the are good or not is irrelevant, as whilst they continue to refuse to name their clients then there is always going to be an element of doubt until news breaks through of ppl being succesful via the scheme.
So do sit and wait to be sure? Or take a chance and be a trailblazer?
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Hello and "bonjour" from Belgium.
Yes, that's true I'm a Wannabe without yet a type rating, I have my licence since jully 2001, in two years just one interview with VEX the 10 september 2001!!!( in two year you can see the expense for the renewal, the adaptation for the JAA licence like twin, MCC...). And finally two weeks ago I have received two call for assesment. So, stop telling me that there is no pilot shortage. As it's said earlier in this forum, that's true that's some pilots stay without job, but for those that I know, they will never find something because they don't want to move and they want a prestigious national company, like Sabena was, to do a carrier.
So I will finish my post by this words : I'm waiting since two years to have the opportunities to proove my value as a pilot, today I can do it two times. Let me spring my wings, and stop bother young wannabes.
Yes, that's true I'm a Wannabe without yet a type rating, I have my licence since jully 2001, in two years just one interview with VEX the 10 september 2001!!!( in two year you can see the expense for the renewal, the adaptation for the JAA licence like twin, MCC...). And finally two weeks ago I have received two call for assesment. So, stop telling me that there is no pilot shortage. As it's said earlier in this forum, that's true that's some pilots stay without job, but for those that I know, they will never find something because they don't want to move and they want a prestigious national company, like Sabena was, to do a carrier.
So I will finish my post by this words : I'm waiting since two years to have the opportunities to proove my value as a pilot, today I can do it two times. Let me spring my wings, and stop bother young wannabes.
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Flyingoli
That is fantastic news. I am genuinely delighted to hear of your success; good for you. But, by your own words, you have waited 2 years for that break. You deserve it.
CH4
Hmm...another thought just occured to me;
On one of my contracts, F/O's will typically earn in salary and allowances over 2 years £ 75,192. So who lost most money, in the grand scheme of things? You pay your money, you take your choice. Sadly for Flyingoli, our opportunity wasn't available to him back then.
That is fantastic news. I am genuinely delighted to hear of your success; good for you. But, by your own words, you have waited 2 years for that break. You deserve it.
CH4
Hmm...another thought just occured to me;
On one of my contracts, F/O's will typically earn in salary and allowances over 2 years £ 75,192. So who lost most money, in the grand scheme of things? You pay your money, you take your choice. Sadly for Flyingoli, our opportunity wasn't available to him back then.
Last edited by CH4; 16th Nov 2003 at 02:52.
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Thank you for your last post CH4.
I think that GAS is a great project, I know that a lot of wannabe (like me) where waiting for this kind of opportunities. So continue ahead without listening to all this black bird, who know that GAS is a great organisation, but don't want to admit it.
Happy flying to all of you.
I think that GAS is a great project, I know that a lot of wannabe (like me) where waiting for this kind of opportunities. So continue ahead without listening to all this black bird, who know that GAS is a great organisation, but don't want to admit it.
Happy flying to all of you.
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Flyingoli,
Quote:
So, stop telling me that there is no pilot shortage. As it's said earlier in this forum, that's true that's some pilots stay without job, but for those that I know, they will never find something because they don't want to move and they want a prestigious national company, like Sabena was, to do a carrier.
You have echo'd the point I tried to make yesterday. I know what we both say to be true, good luck to you.
Quote:
So, stop telling me that there is no pilot shortage. As it's said earlier in this forum, that's true that's some pilots stay without job, but for those that I know, they will never find something because they don't want to move and they want a prestigious national company, like Sabena was, to do a carrier.
You have echo'd the point I tried to make yesterday. I know what we both say to be true, good luck to you.
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This is an interesting thread for someone like myself. I will (touch wood) have passed all ATPL exams by Jan 04 having DL'd. Then CPL/IR and MCC course, hope to have it all done by the summer. The job search begins soon.
By the time I have completed my IR etc, I will have spent somewhere around £30,000 on flying training and associated costs since starting my PPL. That is a huge investment in my chosen career. Yes it is my choice and its a risk I take of my own chosing. But I feel at this point I have laid out enough money on my own training.
The airlines have had it good for the last few years. Huge numbers of type rated pilots available due to many airlines going bust. But from what I hear at work (as a Dispatcher at a major London airport) from pilots and from my training provider, the tables are turning. The supply of type rated pilots is running out fast. The jobs section of FI gets bigger each week. I know of companies who are recruiting who are not advertising in FI.
From the threads on here it seems that quite a lot of people are not willing to keep spending endless amounts of cash in the hope of "possibly", "if suited to our customer airline (who you are not allowed for contractual reasons to know who they are)", "maybe offered a permanent postion on satisfactory completion of line training (for which you might not be paid), subject to market demand".
It may seem harsh and you might not like my approach CH4, thats fair enough, I respect your knowledge and experience in the industry. But they is more then one way to skin a cat. Just because things are balanced in your favour at the moment, doesnt mean it will always be so.
£20k for a type rating is a lot of money. Given that the market place is picking up, I for one am willing to take the chance that in 12 months time there will be airlines out there willing to pay to train me on their aircraft. There are some already doing that, admittedly bonding people for a period of time which is entirely justified.
But I also have the common sense to realise that Bond/GAS/Astreaus etc are a business and as such they are out there to make money. They have done their research and determined there is a market place to provide TR's to pilots who are willing to pay for them, and then place those people with airlines who are not willing to pay to train their own pilots, and that this can be done profitably.
As I said before, more then one way to skin a cat. Good luck to everyone, whichever route to take the RHS of the shiny jet.
By the time I have completed my IR etc, I will have spent somewhere around £30,000 on flying training and associated costs since starting my PPL. That is a huge investment in my chosen career. Yes it is my choice and its a risk I take of my own chosing. But I feel at this point I have laid out enough money on my own training.
The airlines have had it good for the last few years. Huge numbers of type rated pilots available due to many airlines going bust. But from what I hear at work (as a Dispatcher at a major London airport) from pilots and from my training provider, the tables are turning. The supply of type rated pilots is running out fast. The jobs section of FI gets bigger each week. I know of companies who are recruiting who are not advertising in FI.
From the threads on here it seems that quite a lot of people are not willing to keep spending endless amounts of cash in the hope of "possibly", "if suited to our customer airline (who you are not allowed for contractual reasons to know who they are)", "maybe offered a permanent postion on satisfactory completion of line training (for which you might not be paid), subject to market demand".
It may seem harsh and you might not like my approach CH4, thats fair enough, I respect your knowledge and experience in the industry. But they is more then one way to skin a cat. Just because things are balanced in your favour at the moment, doesnt mean it will always be so.
£20k for a type rating is a lot of money. Given that the market place is picking up, I for one am willing to take the chance that in 12 months time there will be airlines out there willing to pay to train me on their aircraft. There are some already doing that, admittedly bonding people for a period of time which is entirely justified.
But I also have the common sense to realise that Bond/GAS/Astreaus etc are a business and as such they are out there to make money. They have done their research and determined there is a market place to provide TR's to pilots who are willing to pay for them, and then place those people with airlines who are not willing to pay to train their own pilots, and that this can be done profitably.
As I said before, more then one way to skin a cat. Good luck to everyone, whichever route to take the RHS of the shiny jet.
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Although Flyingoli doesn't have a job yet, I'm glad things are at least moving for him, and I wish him all the best for the next assessments. A clever operator hires the same number of experienced and junior pilots, and it seems he's found two of them that need pilots, which is great. I also hope they are not willing to put a heavy financial pressure on you (Flyingoli) if they offer you a position. Once again, good luck with your interviews.
Having said that, his presence (as a non-type rated wanabe) at an airline interview does not yet prove a shortage of type rated pilot: I believe that in Europe there's a long tradition of giving a chance to young pilots with less than 300 hours.
If possible, I'd like to have a rough idea of the number of "non-relocating pilots" he's talking about, and I'd like to know their profile. I'm not surprised that some of us are not ready to be based farther than 50 miles from home, but I'm really not sure we can build conclusions on that. I know dozens of pilots (half of them type rated), and 80% of them are ready to relocate anywhere in Europe (but if it's farther than that the percentage will dramatically fall of course).
You might think it's very hard to make me change my mind on a subject, but when I compare what half a dozen people are saying online ("there's a pilot shortage") with what hundreds of type rated pilots are saying ("I'm looking for job !") it makes sense to be careful. Not to mention the very very very relative objectivity (if any) of FTO/TRTO managers on this subject.
By the way, if we accept the idea that the tables are indeed turning ? Why spend another huge pile of cash now instead of waiting a bit, as Timzsta said ?
The people in charge of airline management (bean counters or not) know VERY WELL that we, pilots, are so motivated to fly that we are ready to deal with a lot more obstacles in our quest for a cockpit than most employees are. Among those airline managers, some of them think that a type rating is too expensive in an already expensive industry (I'm still waiting for a mathematical demonstration of that, because it's an investement, but if all you care about is immediate profit then a TR is definitely not a good short-term return on investment), that pilots are just professionnal whiners who will drop the airline for any reason (which is sometimes true unfortunately, but on the other hand if they're treated like trash why shouldn't they run away ASAP ?), that pilots are always overpaid (ask a surgeon what he brings home every month and which company paid his last seminar in the Caribbean), etc. Which means they'll take any opportunity to make you pay for your training. It also means that when the bean counters are looking for pilots and the flying experience is not really an issue (experienced and junior pilots both welcome), the job goes to the one who pays for it. Unless there's really no other way but to pay (with the company's money) for the type rating of a new hire in order to keep the aircraft flying, they'll always try to hypnotise those people that are so desperate to hear "Weee haaave a joooooob for youuuu". Airlines like that are having so much fun now because there are so many wanabes looking for a job, and so many experienced pilots who consider their selection process as scandalous and they will do anything they can to avoid those airlines.
Having said that, his presence (as a non-type rated wanabe) at an airline interview does not yet prove a shortage of type rated pilot: I believe that in Europe there's a long tradition of giving a chance to young pilots with less than 300 hours.
If possible, I'd like to have a rough idea of the number of "non-relocating pilots" he's talking about, and I'd like to know their profile. I'm not surprised that some of us are not ready to be based farther than 50 miles from home, but I'm really not sure we can build conclusions on that. I know dozens of pilots (half of them type rated), and 80% of them are ready to relocate anywhere in Europe (but if it's farther than that the percentage will dramatically fall of course).
You might think it's very hard to make me change my mind on a subject, but when I compare what half a dozen people are saying online ("there's a pilot shortage") with what hundreds of type rated pilots are saying ("I'm looking for job !") it makes sense to be careful. Not to mention the very very very relative objectivity (if any) of FTO/TRTO managers on this subject.
By the way, if we accept the idea that the tables are indeed turning ? Why spend another huge pile of cash now instead of waiting a bit, as Timzsta said ?
The people in charge of airline management (bean counters or not) know VERY WELL that we, pilots, are so motivated to fly that we are ready to deal with a lot more obstacles in our quest for a cockpit than most employees are. Among those airline managers, some of them think that a type rating is too expensive in an already expensive industry (I'm still waiting for a mathematical demonstration of that, because it's an investement, but if all you care about is immediate profit then a TR is definitely not a good short-term return on investment), that pilots are just professionnal whiners who will drop the airline for any reason (which is sometimes true unfortunately, but on the other hand if they're treated like trash why shouldn't they run away ASAP ?), that pilots are always overpaid (ask a surgeon what he brings home every month and which company paid his last seminar in the Caribbean), etc. Which means they'll take any opportunity to make you pay for your training. It also means that when the bean counters are looking for pilots and the flying experience is not really an issue (experienced and junior pilots both welcome), the job goes to the one who pays for it. Unless there's really no other way but to pay (with the company's money) for the type rating of a new hire in order to keep the aircraft flying, they'll always try to hypnotise those people that are so desperate to hear "Weee haaave a joooooob for youuuu". Airlines like that are having so much fun now because there are so many wanabes looking for a job, and so many experienced pilots who consider their selection process as scandalous and they will do anything they can to avoid those airlines.
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Stratocaster,
I am not arging nor disagreeing with you, I am speaking from personal experience.
I have worked overseas for a number of years now. In the past having talked to former friends and colleagues (ground staff) and perhaps having discussed the lifestyle I lead and the money I earn they would make it crystal clear that should a vacancy occur then they would like to come to work with me.
When one subsequently contacts them to offer them a job they make all sorts of excuses why they cannot relocate at that time. Furthermore, adverts in Flight International received appalling responses of people willing to relocate to another country.
Flight crew, in my experience, are rarely prepared to relocate to another country. They may be prepared to work from another country but they expect favourable rostering (excessive days off), they expect an accommodation allowance, subsidised travel and in general expect special treatment, how often have I heard 'can I do my standby from home?' which might be half a day's travel away?
These are, in my experience, expectations when offering employment to foreign nationals.
The point I'm trying to make is that many will tell you they will work anywhere but when it comes down to it, many of them will not.
I am not arging nor disagreeing with you, I am speaking from personal experience.
I have worked overseas for a number of years now. In the past having talked to former friends and colleagues (ground staff) and perhaps having discussed the lifestyle I lead and the money I earn they would make it crystal clear that should a vacancy occur then they would like to come to work with me.
When one subsequently contacts them to offer them a job they make all sorts of excuses why they cannot relocate at that time. Furthermore, adverts in Flight International received appalling responses of people willing to relocate to another country.
Flight crew, in my experience, are rarely prepared to relocate to another country. They may be prepared to work from another country but they expect favourable rostering (excessive days off), they expect an accommodation allowance, subsidised travel and in general expect special treatment, how often have I heard 'can I do my standby from home?' which might be half a day's travel away?
These are, in my experience, expectations when offering employment to foreign nationals.
The point I'm trying to make is that many will tell you they will work anywhere but when it comes down to it, many of them will not.
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Okay, I'll be more precise in my answers. Here's an example... Somewhere in my PC, there's an Excel file called "CTBcollectiveresume.xls". As the name says, it's the list of all the pilots who lost their job when CityBird (based in Brussels) went down the tubes. I don't know how many versions of this file have been emailed around the world (supposing they made updated versions of this collective resume, which would be a good idea), but I received only one file like that, dated "April 2002" (I don't know how close that was to the bankruptcy, but I guess only a few months). The email is indeed a very powerful tool to spread the news. Although there was nothing I could do for those poor guys at the time, I kept this file in case there was something I could do later on, and forwarded it to whoever could help them.
There are roughly 180 names on the list. All type rated and current on either 737, 767, A300 or MD11. Pilots with a flying experience ranging from 600 to 20000 hours (not all of them provided this particular info). Next to their name, you can find some personnal info (license, experience, age, ratings, etc.). You can also see if at that time they had found a new job, and if yes, with whom.
- 25% were still without a job.
- 25% found a job with a Belgian operator
- 18% found a job in a neighbouring country (UK, Netherlands, Germany, France, Luxembourg)
- 21% found a job in the rest of Europe
- 11% left Europe and were flying in Africa, SE Asia or the Middle East.
Which means that two thirds of those who found a job left their country. Two thirds of those who left their country were not based in a neighbouring country...
This file, and a few other things not as precise as this counting, make me believe that pilots are ready to go far away to keep on flying.
Good luck to all.
There are roughly 180 names on the list. All type rated and current on either 737, 767, A300 or MD11. Pilots with a flying experience ranging from 600 to 20000 hours (not all of them provided this particular info). Next to their name, you can find some personnal info (license, experience, age, ratings, etc.). You can also see if at that time they had found a new job, and if yes, with whom.
- 25% were still without a job.
- 25% found a job with a Belgian operator
- 18% found a job in a neighbouring country (UK, Netherlands, Germany, France, Luxembourg)
- 21% found a job in the rest of Europe
- 11% left Europe and were flying in Africa, SE Asia or the Middle East.
Which means that two thirds of those who found a job left their country. Two thirds of those who left their country were not based in a neighbouring country...
This file, and a few other things not as precise as this counting, make me believe that pilots are ready to go far away to keep on flying.
Good luck to all.
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Personally i would go anywhere in the world am not fussed, in fact would probably prefer something that isn't uk based.........................a nice warm beach would work wonders 
