Hours!!!
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Hours!!!
Hi everyone, my first post, so please go easy on me!!!
At many CPL/IR flight schools, they favour students with some experience, but not too much, so as to reduce the amount of bad habits they have to sort out. It is not uncommon for students with Zero hours to walk in, work hard, pass everything first time and leave with fantastic results.
I Know several recently qualified people who have walked straight into the right-hand seat with around 200 hrs (mostly due to family connections), and None of them have had any problem with their type ratings or line checks.
Surely having less hours and less bad habits has its own merits when an airline wants you to fly as They want without the possibility of reverting back to your old SOP's etc???
in-2-wind
At many CPL/IR flight schools, they favour students with some experience, but not too much, so as to reduce the amount of bad habits they have to sort out. It is not uncommon for students with Zero hours to walk in, work hard, pass everything first time and leave with fantastic results.
I Know several recently qualified people who have walked straight into the right-hand seat with around 200 hrs (mostly due to family connections), and None of them have had any problem with their type ratings or line checks.
Surely having less hours and less bad habits has its own merits when an airline wants you to fly as They want without the possibility of reverting back to your old SOP's etc???
in-2-wind
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Firstly, welcome.
Secondly though, not sure I quite get your question.
If you are talking about flying schools, they will not turn you away unless you do not have the minimum requirements to start their course and they do not run the training required to get you there. By definition they are a flying school so students are not going to have experience!
Very true, but also, it is not uncommon for guys to do modular training, a bit at a time and also achieve fantastic results. As you also point out some low hours guys (the best ones) go on to get jobs and have no problem passing the airline training. Getting the job straight out of training is more down to determination, a bit of luck and being good enough to pass the interview/ selection!
There is some merit in the point you make, but and this is the big but, experience counts for an awful lot, that's why airlines will tend to want a certain experience level as you can't beat real life exposure when it comes to flying aeroplanes. Most experienced guys have more capacity and easily adapt from one airline to another and although your point about previous SOPs is an issue, it is by no means insurmountable. I have been through 4 different sets in 12 months and yes it is a problem, but with time it doesn't take long before you can't remember the old ones! Bad habits are something separate and that comes down to individual professionalism and a good training department!
Hope that answers any questions you raised.
PP
Secondly though, not sure I quite get your question.
At many CPL/IR flight schools, they favour students with some experience, but not too much, so as to reduce the amount of bad habits they have to sort out.
It is not uncommon for students with Zero hours to walk in, work hard, pass everything first time and leave with fantastic results.
Surely having less hours and less bad habits has its own merits when an airline wants you to fly as They want without the possibility of reverting back to your old SOP's etc???
Hope that answers any questions you raised.
PP
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Very good response from Pete.
In addition in 2 wind. The experience level in the cockpit is another obstacle that has to be dealt with. With an F/0 with 200 hrs of C172 and Duchess accompanied by a normal Line Captain who more than likely has spent considerable time in the right seat and hopefully more experience in other types. Do you think this combination is conducive to good CRM environment. To me sounds like a fromula for disaster, all of a sudden the Flight deck has become a single pilot version of itself.
You say that inexperienced guys can fly the plane and pass all the exams with flying colours. Yes, But experience will dictate wether he or she can handle emergency situations that occur outside the standard SOP Box. We can all follow SOPs, but when the "SH##T hits the FAN", experience and experiences can save a small problem festering into something large. Otherwise we would hire all inexperienced staff and not be worried about "reinventing the wheel" everytime a problem occurs.
Plus youll find it all depends in Insurance and your companies training policies.
Just my 2 cents worth
Sheep
P.S. A Carribean Airline has just revised its recruiting limits after having taken on a number of abinitio low timers 200hrs or so. They now only accept people with 750 or more.
It was due to some incidents where EXPERIENCED F/Os wouldve probably done ok.
In addition in 2 wind. The experience level in the cockpit is another obstacle that has to be dealt with. With an F/0 with 200 hrs of C172 and Duchess accompanied by a normal Line Captain who more than likely has spent considerable time in the right seat and hopefully more experience in other types. Do you think this combination is conducive to good CRM environment. To me sounds like a fromula for disaster, all of a sudden the Flight deck has become a single pilot version of itself.
You say that inexperienced guys can fly the plane and pass all the exams with flying colours. Yes, But experience will dictate wether he or she can handle emergency situations that occur outside the standard SOP Box. We can all follow SOPs, but when the "SH##T hits the FAN", experience and experiences can save a small problem festering into something large. Otherwise we would hire all inexperienced staff and not be worried about "reinventing the wheel" everytime a problem occurs.
Plus youll find it all depends in Insurance and your companies training policies.
Just my 2 cents worth
Sheep
P.S. A Carribean Airline has just revised its recruiting limits after having taken on a number of abinitio low timers 200hrs or so. They now only accept people with 750 or more.
It was due to some incidents where EXPERIENCED F/Os wouldve probably done ok.
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I tend to agree with the above post with regard to when the **** hits the fan-even as a low hours "gonnabe"! However I just wonder where the sense in this Carribean Airlines revising its recruiting limits after having taken on a number of abinitio low timers 200hrs or so with resulting "problems" They now only accept people with 750 or more. I see no real difference in a few hundred hours belting round in a light prop,non-complex a/c.
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Thankyou for the replies so far,
Pete,
Can't really agree to this, In my experience (small i agree), it comes down simply to WHO you know not WHAT you know! I know many Low hour people who passed everything first time with very high averages and grades having worked their socks off and who have never found work (or even had an interview)! On the other hand, I know several people who failed several exams, required extra training etc, etc and who then walked into an airline thanks to 'who they knew'!!
Don't get me wrong, we all know the risks when we make that massive decision to 'go for it', and No, the world does not owe anyone a living! Thats life!!
For those with the determination and cash (oh and contacts will help), chances are your day will come.
in-2-wind
Pete,
As you also point out some low hours guys (the best ones) go on to get jobs and have no problem passing the airline training. Getting the job straight out of training is more down to determination, a bit of luck and being good enough to pass the interview/ selection!
Don't get me wrong, we all know the risks when we make that massive decision to 'go for it', and No, the world does not owe anyone a living! Thats life!!
For those with the determination and cash (oh and contacts will help), chances are your day will come.
in-2-wind
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Determination...who doesnt have some???..
I have sent over 268 CVs...from king airs to metroliners to 737s on all of which I am rated...all around the world..even to places mother is forbidding me to go..im still her little boy...eheh
Anyways,FAA ATPL and full JAA ATPL ,2400 on multi turbo...not one g** D*** interview...
All I can say is you may see me serving tea and coffee at 33Kft..heyyy Im NOT gay!!
Which airline has the best looking cabin Crew...? I might as well enjoy that time ...
All the best of luck to the 200 hours guys out there....
Flyer75
I have sent over 268 CVs...from king airs to metroliners to 737s on all of which I am rated...all around the world..even to places mother is forbidding me to go..im still her little boy...eheh
Anyways,FAA ATPL and full JAA ATPL ,2400 on multi turbo...not one g** D*** interview...
All I can say is you may see me serving tea and coffee at 33Kft..heyyy Im NOT gay!!
Which airline has the best looking cabin Crew...? I might as well enjoy that time ...
All the best of luck to the 200 hours guys out there....
Flyer75
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Gardener,
Well maybe they havent flown a Complex Aircraft by 750 hrs.
But here are some differences:
The guy wuth 200 hrs has just that 200 and no experience of the following:
1. How to handle Passengers.
2. How to handle Weather.
3. How to handle ATC.
4. How to handle Commercial pressures associated with Charter.
5. Local knowledge of certain Regions.
6. Probably more a/c TYPE handling confidence AND EXPERINECE.
7. Use in SOPs and Operational Requirements.
There are many others. And it all comes about from exposure.
An Airline isnt an abinitio Training Organisation nor needs to be.
Hiring low time guys means that.
Most notable Airlines that have Cadet Programmes , train their candidates in a Multitude of different types from Light Twins to Small Jets. This bridges the gap Im talking about but still has alot of holes, so these Cadets even when qualified are stringently monitored during there check to line. Which isnt cheap but is alot cheaper than unbogging an Overun A320 or such like incident.
Regards
Sheep
They now only accept people with 750 or more. I see no real difference in a few hundred hours belting round in a light prop,non-complex a/c.
But here are some differences:
The guy wuth 200 hrs has just that 200 and no experience of the following:
1. How to handle Passengers.
2. How to handle Weather.
3. How to handle ATC.
4. How to handle Commercial pressures associated with Charter.
5. Local knowledge of certain Regions.
6. Probably more a/c TYPE handling confidence AND EXPERINECE.
7. Use in SOPs and Operational Requirements.
There are many others. And it all comes about from exposure.
An Airline isnt an abinitio Training Organisation nor needs to be.
Hiring low time guys means that.
Most notable Airlines that have Cadet Programmes , train their candidates in a Multitude of different types from Light Twins to Small Jets. This bridges the gap Im talking about but still has alot of holes, so these Cadets even when qualified are stringently monitored during there check to line. Which isnt cheap but is alot cheaper than unbogging an Overun A320 or such like incident.
Regards
Sheep
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Sheep,
The point I was trying to make was that 500ish hours will possibly not make a great deal of difference. Unless it is 500 hours of airline/ air taxi/ instructing. You points:
Point 1. Passengers- hour building you won't have any
Point 2. Weather-Chances are,again hour building you will be able to fly VFR only unless you can afford IFR equipped etc. not cheap UK
Point 3. I agree
Point 4. Again talking commercial world
Point 5. Agreed
Point 6. Experience of flying-yet still in a single crew op.
Point 7. Again more of a commercial angle
Don't get me wrong,like I stated earlier I agree that low hours incorporate more risk. On the other hand countless accidents have happened to crews being overconfident or not keeoing there "eye on the ball". You are only as good as your last flight.
The point I was trying to make was that 500ish hours will possibly not make a great deal of difference. Unless it is 500 hours of airline/ air taxi/ instructing. You points:
Point 1. Passengers- hour building you won't have any
Point 2. Weather-Chances are,again hour building you will be able to fly VFR only unless you can afford IFR equipped etc. not cheap UK
Point 3. I agree
Point 4. Again talking commercial world
Point 5. Agreed
Point 6. Experience of flying-yet still in a single crew op.
Point 7. Again more of a commercial angle
Don't get me wrong,like I stated earlier I agree that low hours incorporate more risk. On the other hand countless accidents have happened to crews being overconfident or not keeoing there "eye on the ball". You are only as good as your last flight.
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I think we are now looking at a very different market for low hours pilots and this is where the problems getting employment stem from.
I do not discount the 'who you know angle', it certainly can pay dividends, especially in the current climate. However, the last two years have been particularly hard and airlines have been cutting back, not expanding and this is where the problem lies. I still stand by my statement about determination, luck and ability. Low hours guys are still being employed in airlines where who you know carries no sway, just in very small numbers considering those out there in 'low hours land'.
The biggest problem I see is that many do nothing to improve their hours upon licence issue, hence in 12 months time they are still wallowing around the 250hr mark. I've said it before on these pages and will repeat it here; in the eyes of the airlines you are still a 'low hours' pilot with 1000hr TT and nothing bigger than a piston twin on your licence. You are however, moving in the right direction and making yourself more marketable.
Buying ratings and not getting any time on type is a huge risk IMHO and only makes you more desirable if an employer has asked you to do it, or are desparate for someone quick. In the current market I think you have to seriously think before going down that road.
I would also say that 'just sending CVs' is currently not enough. It's all too easy to not reply to them and take on someone who has really been showing keen, possibly through networking and contacting 'those who can make decisions' with regards to recruitment.
Sheepguts, regarding low hours guys in a two crew environment;
I think you have missed the point about the two crew environment and CRM. Lets not think of low hours guys as braindead until they reach some magical figure of total time such as 1500hrs, upon which they instantly become great at CRM and useful to a captain. CRM is about attitude and many very low hours guys have an extremely good attitude towards their flying. Granted they don't have vast experience, but that's why there is a captain there. He's the one who gets paid to handle the non-SOP type emergency (if it is outside the capability of the F/O, with the input, support and monitoring by that F/O) The standard stuff is in the book and the F/O has been trained and assessed as competent to deal with these 'QRH type' failures/ emergencies.
Most 250hr guys being employed at any time tend to be very sharp indeed, very adaptable, willing to learn and pretty damn good at flying the machine as well. They are keen as mustard and in some circumstances put others more experienced to shame.
The above does not make up for experience, but I still think a guy with 750hrs is little better than one with 250, except in the aircraft that he flies regularly. Certainly here in the UK he would not now be gaining time in something valuable like air taxi due to JAR, so that leaves circuit bashing and local area with students, para dropping and a few others (non-airline I was thinking). So the guy with 750hrs probably has little of the experience that you quote, apart from a bit more exposure to ATC, unless he is not in the EU.
PP
I do not discount the 'who you know angle', it certainly can pay dividends, especially in the current climate. However, the last two years have been particularly hard and airlines have been cutting back, not expanding and this is where the problem lies. I still stand by my statement about determination, luck and ability. Low hours guys are still being employed in airlines where who you know carries no sway, just in very small numbers considering those out there in 'low hours land'.
The biggest problem I see is that many do nothing to improve their hours upon licence issue, hence in 12 months time they are still wallowing around the 250hr mark. I've said it before on these pages and will repeat it here; in the eyes of the airlines you are still a 'low hours' pilot with 1000hr TT and nothing bigger than a piston twin on your licence. You are however, moving in the right direction and making yourself more marketable.
Buying ratings and not getting any time on type is a huge risk IMHO and only makes you more desirable if an employer has asked you to do it, or are desparate for someone quick. In the current market I think you have to seriously think before going down that road.
I would also say that 'just sending CVs' is currently not enough. It's all too easy to not reply to them and take on someone who has really been showing keen, possibly through networking and contacting 'those who can make decisions' with regards to recruitment.
Sheepguts, regarding low hours guys in a two crew environment;
Do you think this combination is conducive to good CRM environment. To me sounds like a fromula for disaster, all of a sudden the Flight deck has become a single pilot version of itself.
Most 250hr guys being employed at any time tend to be very sharp indeed, very adaptable, willing to learn and pretty damn good at flying the machine as well. They are keen as mustard and in some circumstances put others more experienced to shame.
The above does not make up for experience, but I still think a guy with 750hrs is little better than one with 250, except in the aircraft that he flies regularly. Certainly here in the UK he would not now be gaining time in something valuable like air taxi due to JAR, so that leaves circuit bashing and local area with students, para dropping and a few others (non-airline I was thinking). So the guy with 750hrs probably has little of the experience that you quote, apart from a bit more exposure to ATC, unless he is not in the EU.
PP
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Gardener,
Sorry I was commenting from an Australian perspective.
Well in Oz not many people do hour building , maybe a little. But it gets expensive and to hour build to say 500hrs command for QANTAS for eg., would be very costly. So most guys go out bush and get Mustering, Meat Bombong jobs and the eventually Charter even with as little as 200 hrs. They get exposure with margibal VFR weather. What happens when they fly thru it 
etc. Along with more powerfull types like C206, C210 C310R BE58 C402 PA-31 etc.
Deal with ATC and very importantly deal with clients and pax. So maybe I wasnt taking into account the Euro scene where hour building and Cadet Programmes are more popular.
Pete when I was refering to a Single Pilot version, I wasnt saying the f/o was a nobrainer. I meant that because of the experience gap or slant in crew experience, that indirectly this could undermine good CRM. Confidence in challenging something that one feels is wrong may sometimes come unwound due to an Over baring Captain. I think alot of people would agree here. The Science of good CRM is yet to pass to all four corners of the globe. Many F/Os I know in some comapnies never challenge anything for fear of career setbacks. This happens in the region Im in , at the moment. Scary I know.
But Im affraid that low time Airline Pilots are becoming more and more popular. And us guys till in G.A. will still be in G.A.
Regards
Sheepster
Sorry I was commenting from an Australian perspective.
Weather-Chances are,again hour building you will be able to fly VFR only unless you can afford IFR equipped etc. not cheap UK
etc. Along with more powerfull types like C206, C210 C310R BE58 C402 PA-31 etc.Deal with ATC and very importantly deal with clients and pax. So maybe I wasnt taking into account the Euro scene where hour building and Cadet Programmes are more popular.
Pete when I was refering to a Single Pilot version, I wasnt saying the f/o was a nobrainer. I meant that because of the experience gap or slant in crew experience, that indirectly this could undermine good CRM. Confidence in challenging something that one feels is wrong may sometimes come unwound due to an Over baring Captain. I think alot of people would agree here. The Science of good CRM is yet to pass to all four corners of the globe. Many F/Os I know in some comapnies never challenge anything for fear of career setbacks. This happens in the region Im in , at the moment. Scary I know.
But Im affraid that low time Airline Pilots are becoming more and more popular. And us guys till in G.A. will still be in G.A.
Regards
Sheepster
