Hours!!!
Hi everyone, my first post, so please go easy on me!!!
At many CPL/IR flight schools, they favour students with some experience, but not too much, so as to reduce the amount of bad habits they have to sort out. It is not uncommon for students with Zero hours to walk in, work hard, pass everything first time and leave with fantastic results. I Know several recently qualified people who have walked straight into the right-hand seat with around 200 hrs (mostly due to family connections), and None of them have had any problem with their type ratings or line checks. Surely having less hours and less bad habits has its own merits when an airline wants you to fly as They want without the possibility of reverting back to your old SOP's etc??? :uhoh: in-2-wind :bored: |
Firstly, welcome.
Secondly though, not sure I quite get your question. At many CPL/IR flight schools, they favour students with some experience, but not too much, so as to reduce the amount of bad habits they have to sort out. It is not uncommon for students with Zero hours to walk in, work hard, pass everything first time and leave with fantastic results. Surely having less hours and less bad habits has its own merits when an airline wants you to fly as They want without the possibility of reverting back to your old SOP's etc??? Hope that answers any questions you raised. PP |
Very good response from Pete.
In addition in 2 wind. The experience level in the cockpit is another obstacle that has to be dealt with. With an F/0 with 200 hrs of C172 and Duchess accompanied by a normal Line Captain who more than likely has spent considerable time in the right seat and hopefully more experience in other types. Do you think this combination is conducive to good CRM environment. To me sounds like a fromula for disaster, all of a sudden the Flight deck has become a single pilot version of itself. You say that inexperienced guys can fly the plane and pass all the exams with flying colours. Yes, But experience will dictate wether he or she can handle emergency situations that occur outside the standard SOP Box. We can all follow SOPs, but when the "SH##T hits the FAN", experience and experiences can save a small problem festering into something large. Otherwise we would hire all inexperienced staff and not be worried about "reinventing the wheel" everytime a problem occurs. Plus youll find it all depends in Insurance and your companies training policies. Just my 2 cents worth Sheep P.S. A Carribean Airline has just revised its recruiting limits after having taken on a number of abinitio low timers 200hrs or so. They now only accept people with 750 or more. It was due to some incidents where EXPERIENCED F/Os wouldve probably done ok. |
I tend to agree with the above post with regard to when the **** hits the fan-even as a low hours "gonnabe"! However I just wonder where the sense in this Carribean Airlines revising its recruiting limits after having taken on a number of abinitio low timers 200hrs or so with resulting "problems" They now only accept people with 750 or more. I see no real difference in a few hundred hours belting round in a light prop,non-complex a/c.
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Thankyou for the replies so far,
Pete, As you also point out some low hours guys (the best ones) go on to get jobs and have no problem passing the airline training. Getting the job straight out of training is more down to determination, a bit of luck and being good enough to pass the interview/ selection! Don't get me wrong, we all know the risks when we make that massive decision to 'go for it', and No, the world does not owe anyone a living! Thats life!! :hmm: For those with the determination and cash (oh and contacts will help), chances are your day will come. in-2-wind :ok: |
Determination...who doesnt have some???..
I have sent over 268 CVs...from king airs to metroliners to 737s on all of which I am rated...all around the world..even to places mother is forbidding me to go..im still her little boy...eheh Anyways,FAA ATPL and full JAA ATPL ,2400 on multi turbo...not one g** D*** interview... All I can say is you may see me serving tea and coffee at 33Kft..heyyy Im NOT gay!! Which airline has the best looking cabin Crew...? I might as well enjoy that time ... All the best of luck to the 200 hours guys out there.... Flyer75 |
Gardener,
They now only accept people with 750 or more. I see no real difference in a few hundred hours belting round in a light prop,non-complex a/c. But here are some differences: The guy wuth 200 hrs has just that 200 and no experience of the following: 1. How to handle Passengers. 2. How to handle Weather. 3. How to handle ATC. 4. How to handle Commercial pressures associated with Charter. 5. Local knowledge of certain Regions. 6. Probably more a/c TYPE handling confidence AND EXPERINECE. 7. Use in SOPs and Operational Requirements. There are many others. And it all comes about from exposure. An Airline isnt an abinitio Training Organisation nor needs to be. Hiring low time guys means that. Most notable Airlines that have Cadet Programmes , train their candidates in a Multitude of different types from Light Twins to Small Jets. This bridges the gap Im talking about but still has alot of holes, so these Cadets even when qualified are stringently monitored during there check to line. Which isnt cheap but is alot cheaper than unbogging an Overun A320 or such like incident. Regards Sheep |
Sheep,
The point I was trying to make was that 500ish hours will possibly not make a great deal of difference. Unless it is 500 hours of airline/ air taxi/ instructing. You points: Point 1. Passengers- hour building you won't have any Point 2. Weather-Chances are,again hour building you will be able to fly VFR only unless you can afford IFR equipped etc. not cheap UK Point 3. I agree Point 4. Again talking commercial world Point 5. Agreed Point 6. Experience of flying-yet still in a single crew op. Point 7. Again more of a commercial angle Don't get me wrong,like I stated earlier I agree that low hours incorporate more risk. On the other hand countless accidents have happened to crews being overconfident or not keeoing there "eye on the ball". You are only as good as your last flight. |
I think we are now looking at a very different market for low hours pilots and this is where the problems getting employment stem from.
I do not discount the 'who you know angle', it certainly can pay dividends, especially in the current climate. However, the last two years have been particularly hard and airlines have been cutting back, not expanding and this is where the problem lies. I still stand by my statement about determination, luck and ability. Low hours guys are still being employed in airlines where who you know carries no sway, just in very small numbers considering those out there in 'low hours land'. The biggest problem I see is that many do nothing to improve their hours upon licence issue, hence in 12 months time they are still wallowing around the 250hr mark. I've said it before on these pages and will repeat it here; in the eyes of the airlines you are still a 'low hours' pilot with 1000hr TT and nothing bigger than a piston twin on your licence. You are however, moving in the right direction and making yourself more marketable. Buying ratings and not getting any time on type is a huge risk IMHO and only makes you more desirable if an employer has asked you to do it, or are desparate for someone quick. In the current market I think you have to seriously think before going down that road. I would also say that 'just sending CVs' is currently not enough. It's all too easy to not reply to them and take on someone who has really been showing keen, possibly through networking and contacting 'those who can make decisions' with regards to recruitment. Sheepguts, regarding low hours guys in a two crew environment; Do you think this combination is conducive to good CRM environment. To me sounds like a fromula for disaster, all of a sudden the Flight deck has become a single pilot version of itself. Most 250hr guys being employed at any time tend to be very sharp indeed, very adaptable, willing to learn and pretty damn good at flying the machine as well. They are keen as mustard and in some circumstances put others more experienced to shame. The above does not make up for experience, but I still think a guy with 750hrs is little better than one with 250, except in the aircraft that he flies regularly. Certainly here in the UK he would not now be gaining time in something valuable like air taxi due to JAR, so that leaves circuit bashing and local area with students, para dropping and a few others (non-airline I was thinking). So the guy with 750hrs probably has little of the experience that you quote, apart from a bit more exposure to ATC, unless he is not in the EU. PP |
Gardener,
Sorry I was commenting from an Australian perspective. Weather-Chances are,again hour building you will be able to fly VFR only unless you can afford IFR equipped etc. not cheap UK Deal with ATC and very importantly deal with clients and pax. So maybe I wasnt taking into account the Euro scene where hour building and Cadet Programmes are more popular. Pete when I was refering to a Single Pilot version, I wasnt saying the f/o was a nobrainer. I meant that because of the experience gap or slant in crew experience, that indirectly this could undermine good CRM. Confidence in challenging something that one feels is wrong may sometimes come unwound due to an Over baring Captain. I think alot of people would agree here. The Science of good CRM is yet to pass to all four corners of the globe. Many F/Os I know in some comapnies never challenge anything for fear of career setbacks. This happens in the region Im in , at the moment. Scary I know. But Im affraid that low time Airline Pilots are becoming more and more popular. And us guys till in G.A. will still be in G.A.:uhoh: Regards Sheepster |
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