Great, looking forward to your guidance.

Question: what do you think is a good experience to have to start Cargolux?

....a lot lot more than you have....

Luckily for me, you're not doing the recruitment :ok:

See you real soon captain

Chuck Yeager is it you?

The reason you got in is because experienced and qualified guys will not work under the conditions offered - you were not hired because of your qualifications, but rather as a simple sign of supply and demand....

Ouch that hurt :=
I hope you put your request not to fly with juniors, would not want to be such a burden to you.

Would someone mind telling me how much an FO makes on top of the basic salary. I've been invited to assessment but really surprised at how low the starting salary is. It's a significant pay cut on my current job, but perhaps per diems, duty pay etc boosts it to a more realistic level ?

Dear buzzc, please see my previous post on this tread. Coming to cargolux go get the bucks is a No go. But if you live close by or have other personal reason. I would say that makes more sense.

Off course because getting a 747 type rating is something that you get at every street corner...

If the aim of your life is to make money then you chose the wrong job!

Aeroshizzle
 

With your 2200 hours Avro time you should be ok, however you need to realise that not that long ago guys joining typically had around 5000+ hours 737/320 and in some cases substantial PIC time (that was the case in my TR group at least). However with the current deal they (apparently) don't find these type of candidates anymore..

Having said that, back in the early 2000's there was a whole bunch hired with 1500 hours turboprop, all of whom have become real nice and competent commanders. So even though hawk eye has a point, it's a question of supply and demand, you should take these comments with a pinch of salt and don't worry too much:E:ok:

Aeroshizzle. I wouldn't worry.

2000 jumbolina is a good starting block. An older 4 engine underpowered jet, flying into smaller airports- that is some good experience. No one was born knowing LH. Its one of those things where you have to get round the houses a few times to see how it's done, like any job in any industry. You don't pick these things up in a book or even 5000 hours pic in a piglet - it's one of those things, you do it for years you're gonna see some things and pick up the little quirks of the gig. Some crusty old gits in this industry make life harder than it needs be.

People having ago at experience is really a bent for their true frustration. That lower houred recruits are a sign that the terms and conditions have been damaged. This I have total sympathy for. That's not your fault though.

"With your 2200 hours Avro time you should be ok, however you need to realise that not that long ago guys joining typically had around 5000+ hours 737/320 and in some cases substantial PIC time (that was the case in my TR group at least). However with the current deal they (apparently) don't find these type of candidates anymore..

Having said that, back in the early 2000's there was a whole bunch hired with 1500 hours turboprop, all of whom have become real nice and competent commanders. So even though hawk eye has a point, it's a question of supply and demand, you should take these comments with a pinch of salt and don't worry too much"

When we hired 1500 hour prop guys back then it was because we could not get any qualified people - they were not on the market. They were all given extensive training, we had our fair share of firm land (some in the category of hard landings), virtually turning the company into a flight school. Today there are plenty of experienced and even type rated guys on the market, but they would never work under these conditions.
You can argue that 2000 on an RJ is enough - out of experience I disagree, and there is IMHO no doubt that Cargolux is playing with fire, when hiring less experienced guys like aeroshizzle....

Like the one in LBV?
Wrinkled hull and structure, almost a write off. :}

Thanks final06....I believe that proves my point....

Yes, because someone with 15000 hours, but maybe 5-10 landings a month in a busy year, could never run the risk of making a hard landing... :ugh:. Good attitude for experienced drivers, "it won't happen to me because I have more than 5000 hours, must be just the newbies" :E.

Intrance...I'm not sure if you know how correct you are. I doubt it....

Hawk eye

I'm calling a certain amount of BS on your post. The Jumbo is just an aeroplane. What is it about 5000 pic that makes it enough? Why not 6000? What about those turboprops or regionals those kids joined. Should they not ask for 5000 hours pic time for the right seat too then?

No one came from the womb knowing how to fly the jumbo. I agree that straight out of flight school from a Seneca is hella way no. But at some point your 5000 PIC hour 737 dude perhaps maybe a little institutionalised and even find it harder to adopt than a guy who's naturally talented to learn with less experience, maybe 2-3000 hours flying around the strips in a small jet who's more like a sponge soaking this guff up. I think there's a tendency to gloss over the fact that everyone takes time to learn to land a new aircraft if they've not flown. Try landing a turboprop after coming off a jumbo. You'll look like a dick the first few times. Suck it up. It's called doing something new. We've all done it.

I agree some varied level of experience is a good thing when relevant and proportionate. But it's clownary to say you need experience for at random xyz level with some pic on xyz type for the right seat and that's it. No one would do anything in this job as no one would ever have the experience to start. This jobs full of people making up their own minds what relevant experience is without ever having been in the others shoes and seeing what they've been through.

A hard landing proves nothing. Plenty experienced drivers have driven these things into mountains. Careful with that supposition.

Attitude and crap crm are worse than experience levels. Whats worse a new bloke who is unsure and asks or a crusty old arse burger who thinks he knows but won't be asked without giving back attitude?

But I really call out the BS that you need to be some sort of mega astronaut PIC experienced God to fly LH. I'm a LH LS driver and it seems once people make it onto LH they develop short memories and some sort of a God complex. At least keep it real and say what's really bothering you. In a company the terms got slammed. Been there. It's a crap cake. The sooner pilots stop bitching about the symptoms as if they're the problem and tackle what is really at stake the sooner the root cause is focused on.

How nice for you.:D

By the nonsense you are writing it is pretty obvious that you are not flying for CLX and thus don't understand the complexity of our operation.

Why do you (and a few others) try to put us in the "old man bad attitude bad crm" corner when we point out some very valid points?

Bad attitude is more often a problem on the RHS.

Some of the 200 hr wonderkids now got 2000 hrs and they are still convinced they are special and gods' gift to aviation.

Instead of behaving like real men they behave like pussies.

They show all symptons of modern society kids raised by overprotecting parents and are sometimes not even able to take a simple roster change without crying.

Or they follow the order of their girlfriend and report sick when their roster plans them to fly to some "not so nice" destination.

The list is quite long actually.

Due to the problems we have by hiring low experience levels, at least our Head of Training finally understood that CLX cannot lower the entry requirements endlessly.

Probability is high that you won't be put into that "old man bad attitude/CRM" if there is no premature judgement going on here about someone with 2000+ hours joining...

I'd suggest to leave that judgement until they are in the seat next to you if you don't want to be generalized the same way.

#final06...the next beer is on me...spot on...:D

@indrapoera
@cliff second
@intrance

Thanks guys for the support.
As always, pinch of salt is a must with these replies.
Whatever hawk, final or anyone says is never taken to heart anyway.
Still got the job, still going to fly.

Besides, mommy and daddy pay for my rent, my car and all my bills. Flying the 747 is just for fun. I can't wait for the warm welcome, I'll record it with my go pro so I can cherish the moment.

I'm done now, I'll be lurking in the background until something useful or interesting is said.

Peace

Ha ha :} made me laugh, fair play. I'll admit does read like that.

2000 hours = pussies? That's probably got more to do with character than flying hours.

I'm not crap talking you chief. You have my sympathy re terms. Pilots should stick together and support each other, but this is an open forum and anyone is welcome to debate. Someone crap talking a new hire over experience is bad form and attracts a challenge on a public forum. Useless unions and business practice getting away with murder is what's doing our industry in.

Some guys on this topic really need to get off their throne.
The Airline I fly for has been recruiting and training people with less than 2000h. Jet. Or even TP for years, without problems, and we fly to very challenging places, Worldwide.
And please do not start proclaiming that Cargolux standards are higher, trust me, they are not. Not at all.

The B747 is a great aircraft and easy to fly. Almost like a B737 but more stable.

" having to guide you around the World"..?! Seriously mate? In reality, Long-Haul flying is NOT that hard, cpdlc has significantly eased comms enroute, most airports now have RNAV approaches if not equipped with ILS, weather you also have in Europe,... and training takes care of the peculiarities and remaining challenges.
You do not want to guide? Then don't be the Captain.

Greetz,

A B747-400 Captain, flying for an EASA airline.

Mollymawk
 

Hi guys
I have just been envied to take the mollymawk soon. Does Someone knows the minimum score in science? A lot of new staff for me..😅
Good weekend for all

Jetmga,
Appalling English stay where you are :mad:

May someone please confirm:

The initial pay for new joiners at cargolux italy is higher than the pay for newbies at cargolux classic?!

Thanks

No. It is even lower.

CargoLux Assessment
 

I just receive an invitation for psychometrics test in Luxembourg, anyone knows how the process is? Do I need to come back home After psychometrics or all the assessment is done in a consecutive days?

Regards...

Cargolux still's has a problem with lack of pilots, specially F/O. Flights are constatly delayed, rosters changing constatly , according to some news, in the cargo world dedicated press.
Augmented crew are mostly with F/O.
The EASA flight crew limits are completly facke. Doesn't contribuit for a correct fatigue managment. With 3 pilots per flight you can extend dutty period for more than 12 hours, do 2 landings, after a "red eye"flight , and then continue to the final destination.
Can you imagine doing a cargo flight in these conditions? I belive it's hard.
This company has serious problems with fatigue issues. Their union pilots are aware of it. But the managment seems, that ignores it. People don't understand why?
I know some pilots with a lot of flight experience, flew long haul, on Airbus and Boeing, that simply applied, but didn't receive an answer from Cargolux.
They are motivated people, and Cargolux could take an advantage from it, instead hiring F16 pilots.
Why they aren't flexible? There is no age limit, but seems that they do.
Any pilot with 45 years can give at least 20 years more of his life to CLX.

Trancada,
Some of your points are slightly exaggerated, although nobody will say EASA FTL is a good thing.
I can imagine no airline is interested in highly qualified pilots who are around 20 years older than the average person being hired if they run by a seniority list.
The jury is still out with proof whether the lack of widebody or cargo experience is actually an issue. Most guys I have seen being hired over the last years were all very capable and social persons, so the drama seems to be slightly out of place.

-EASA FTL is a disaster for Cargolux. ''So to say they are exaggerated''. Please explain yourself? Because everyone I fly with is dead tired of dutys of 15-16 hours with multiple sectors. those duty are now very common. dutys like; LUX-KMQ-ICN(15-16 hours duty. and they are done with three man crew. where a Pax airline does europe-asia(japen, korea ectra) just ONE sector with min 3 or 4 man crew.

-training at Cargolux is really great. most of the trainers are great people. transition for 320,737 to B747. is more or less the same as turboprob to B747. is that a good system? is it fair to the people coming for turboprob?(its like one or two sims session extra and couple of extra line sectors compared to 737 or 320). those people coming from turnoprop are all really good people and the trainers are all great, and doing there best. but you have to ask yourself, how is the training system working out? bottom line is 'money and time'. more training mean more money and time.

Read that too and whether it's true or not, the proof is in the pudding. They put down some reasonable minimums i.e. the 1500 hrs jet or heavy-TP and I wonder, given what said above, if the requirement is set in stone or no.

Anyone with hands-on experience on the matter?

Safe flying

PZ :cool:

I agree with Ray.
Trancada, if you are not fit enough to continue after the first leg, "to the extent that the flight may be endangered", you are supposed to "not perform duties on an aircraft" and take a crew rest.
That's your responsibility!
If you can't handle the responsibility that comes with the job it might be time for a career change.
But first try some "Controlled Rest on Flight Deck" when you feel tired.

LBR,
what do you think if you have standard rotations on regular basis, you know its way to much regarding tiredness, should you just take your ''responsibility'' and park the aircraft and go into rest on a regular basis?

should a rotation in general not be so tired that you have to think parking the aircraft every time? whether we like it or not, if we park a aircraft because the rotation is to tired. i bet everyone feels a extreme pressure not to do it. Ofc there are always supermans who doesnt feel that pressure from the office. but im not talking about those supermans, talking about a normal human pilot.

i wish, i had the courage like you, LBR

Ray,
I hope you put your words into action. if we all where doing it what you where saying, i agree with you. I feel we as pilots has a responsibility to say no when we are really tired. but I feel the office has also a responsibility not to make rotations, knowing it will be very tiring. because that means you are put in a corner with intent. I have to say the most colleague speak all agree that giving away or duty times limitaions in our CWA made our work way more tiring. I dont need to tell you, the enormous increase in fatigue reports. but lets hope in the future its changes a bit

We pilots are our worst enemies.

We have some 100 colleagues at CV who are selling their OFF- and VAC-days on a regular basis.

"Now it's the time to make money!" or "I make the same money as a captain!" [as F/O]

These people pass a dangerous message to the management:
"It is not all that bad" or "EASA FTL - no problem".

Quite a few of these get nicer trips than the rest of us which are even withheld by crewplanning to have "something nice" to offer.

These short sighted "colleagues" do not see the point that they pay a hefty price for their short-term greed with health issues and expensive divorces when their last paychecks are taken into account for the alimony they will pay.

As long as the company can count on these people nothing will change.
No roster stability and not enough crews.

I found this gem in the Middle East forum on a similar problem:

"wanna know why?

because we, humans, are stupid, selfish and greedy.
and we, pilots, are humans.

and that's why."

Hank, had to do it once.
Planned FDP 15:20
Started with some delay at the first station.
Colleague who took the first rest came back after 4 hours saying that he couldn't sleep.
I was getting tired at the end of the first leg so we took the decision to have a layover in OVB.
True, it's not easy as you know it might cause delays and mess up your colleague's schedules.
On the other hand, it is your duty as a crew member to take those decisions.

Too hopeful?
 

Am I naive to think that the more pilot recruitment the better the rosters? Or will it never go back to how I was?
*it

cargolux second round
 

Aeroshizzle, congrats !!! I passed on mollymawk test and have to face the interview now. do you have any tips captain?? what type of ATPL Questions have they asked?
:ok:

best regards.

May be too optimistic.
This is an ongoing problem. We never had enough crews, and we are not talking about a decent and working standby system.
We had contract captains that spent the better part of 10 years in the company.
F/Os were not amused to say the least.