Polar/atlas Merger Unfair
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Polar/atlas Merger Unfair
Just got royaly hoesed in the merger and they call this fair?
You think it's fair that a Polar crewmember junior to an Atlas crewmember should move up on the seniority list 265 numbers ahead of the senior Atlas crewmember in a company with a combined pilot force of less than 800? Well that's what happened.
I never posted on this or any other Atlas/Polar thread and prefer to stay out of the politics and let those more inclined to have at it. But this is a major injustice. I was always a proponet of date of hire with a seat lock and think that is the only fair position. I never personally said any detromental remarks about Polar crewmembers and always thought things should be done failry since we will eventually end up working together, but this is crap.
You think it's fair that a Polar crewmember junior to an Atlas crewmember should move up on the seniority list 265 numbers ahead of the senior Atlas crewmember in a company with a combined pilot force of less than 800? Well that's what happened.
I never posted on this or any other Atlas/Polar thread and prefer to stay out of the politics and let those more inclined to have at it. But this is a major injustice. I was always a proponet of date of hire with a seat lock and think that is the only fair position. I never personally said any detromental remarks about Polar crewmembers and always thought things should be done failry since we will eventually end up working together, but this is crap.
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Just got royaly hoesed in the merger and they call this fair?
You think it's fair that a Polar crewmember junior to an Atlas crewmember should move up on the seniority list 265 numbers ahead of the senior Atlas crewmember in a company with a combined pilot force of less than 800? Well that's what happened.
I never posted on this or any other Atlas/Polar thread and prefer to stay out of the politics and let those more inclined to have at it. But this is a major injustice. I was always a proponet of date of hire with a seat lock and think that is the only fair position. I never personally said any detromental remarks about Polar crewmembers and always thought things should be done failry since we will eventually end up working together, but this is crap.
You think it's fair that a Polar crewmember junior to an Atlas crewmember should move up on the seniority list 265 numbers ahead of the senior Atlas crewmember in a company with a combined pilot force of less than 800? Well that's what happened.
I never posted on this or any other Atlas/Polar thread and prefer to stay out of the politics and let those more inclined to have at it. But this is a major injustice. I was always a proponet of date of hire with a seat lock and think that is the only fair position. I never personally said any detromental remarks about Polar crewmembers and always thought things should be done failry since we will eventually end up working together, but this is crap.
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If you stay in this business long enough nothing will surprise you. It's a shame how this will affect the careers of alot of good Atlas crewmembers who may now never get the chance to upgrade after being here for so long. For the life of me i don't see how this could have gone this bad. Date of hire and seat lock was a fair due for all concerned but this blatantly hurst one pilot group while enhancing the other.
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The feeling I get from reading the arbitrators ruling is that the transfer of flying from Polar to Atlas and the massive furloughs and F/E firings of the Polar pilots because of it had a bearing in the final list. Just my opinion though.
For what it is worth I have seen a previous merger at brand X and the combined list is about what you would expect for two carriers of about the same age but different sizes. Also as should be , all crews hired after the buyout were straight DOH, though there are Atlas advantages in that. From what I can see all dual classes, meaning all classes that were both Polar and Atlas, the Atlas crews were slotted above their Polar classmates regardless of age (the atlas way) or SS# (the Polar way)
The biggest difference I saw was the fact that the arbitrator ignored the fact that AAWW has shrunk Polar down in recent months. I got the feeling that he saw it for what it was, possibly JC's attempt to get back at the Polar crews for making him look bad during the strike. After all he swore that the Polar crews would cave and never go on strike. Which they might have until AAWW fired all the newhires with less than 1 year even before the strike had happened. In that one move AAWW showed their colors and finished solidifying what was left of the group. That was JCs doing as well.
My personal feeling is that the combined list would have gone much more in Atlas's favor if it had not been for the wholesale gutting that AAWW hammered Polar with this past year. People out of a job because their employer transferred their work to a sister company just to avoid legal contracts that the company signed normally does not sit well with arbitrator or legal types.
As I mentioned above this is simply my opinion from my point of view down in the trenches. And you know how opinions are..
For what it is worth I have seen a previous merger at brand X and the combined list is about what you would expect for two carriers of about the same age but different sizes. Also as should be , all crews hired after the buyout were straight DOH, though there are Atlas advantages in that. From what I can see all dual classes, meaning all classes that were both Polar and Atlas, the Atlas crews were slotted above their Polar classmates regardless of age (the atlas way) or SS# (the Polar way)
The biggest difference I saw was the fact that the arbitrator ignored the fact that AAWW has shrunk Polar down in recent months. I got the feeling that he saw it for what it was, possibly JC's attempt to get back at the Polar crews for making him look bad during the strike. After all he swore that the Polar crews would cave and never go on strike. Which they might have until AAWW fired all the newhires with less than 1 year even before the strike had happened. In that one move AAWW showed their colors and finished solidifying what was left of the group. That was JCs doing as well.
My personal feeling is that the combined list would have gone much more in Atlas's favor if it had not been for the wholesale gutting that AAWW hammered Polar with this past year. People out of a job because their employer transferred their work to a sister company just to avoid legal contracts that the company signed normally does not sit well with arbitrator or legal types.
As I mentioned above this is simply my opinion from my point of view down in the trenches. And you know how opinions are..
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Word is that it is a typo and being corrected by the arbiter. A "Not" was left out due to typing error. Which sounds correct due to the section at the beginning of the ruling that deals with the same subject but has the opposite stated.
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Like i said i don't give a damn about the politics between the Polar and Atlas MEC's or anyone else. I do my job and expect my seniority to be respected and not shoved up my a&s. There is nothing anyone can say on either side which would justify a junior crewmember moving 265 places ahead of me. Date of hire was fair and seat locked the Polar captains that are junior to me. But to take away my chance for upgrade and elevate these guys at a ratio like that is absurd and criminal. The no bump and flush is insignificant, this is here to stay and will affect my future bidding and base awards with this company. Time to look for a job
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However the writing was already on the wall. Anyhope of upgrade is gone with the classics, which AAWW has publically stated many times will happen at Atlas in the near future. I always figured that we would be seeing mass furloughs at Atlas by the end of 07 anyhow.
At this point in the game it would probably be better for all involved for Polar to take their asia slots and contracts and go their own way and Atlas go their own way with the ACMI. As long as AAWW managment is controlling both and using them against one another neither wins.
In the end though both groups are going to have to find a way to get along. If not AAWW will eat both for lunch.
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Kind of different from what you said on another thread below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally Posted by whaledriver101
Dont kid yourself merc. There wont be any merger of the pilot seniority list. They would have done it already.
We Polar guys will happily leave from "under the thumb" of incompetent management. And under management that have "know how" and "airline mentality" and will grow it.
The next question is: Who wants to buy the other 51%?? That way,, we will be completly done with Atlas
We Polar guys will happily leave from "under the thumb" of incompetent management. And under management that have "know how" and "airline mentality" and will grow it.
The next question is: Who wants to buy the other 51%?? That way,, we will be completly done with Atlas
CaptainSlappy,
What does the "no bump, flush or system re-bid" mean to the Polar side? What is your MEC telling your side about it? I noticed that the Polar VARS is silent on the recent award by the arbiter.
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You show me a merger list that makes eveyone happy and I will kiss your butt in Times Square on New Years Eve. I went through it at TWA, US Air guys got hosed, the list goes on and on. No one likes merger lists.
Now as for who's side won, how many people forgot the testimonies at the arbitration? If you want to read it you can. It didn't make Atlas look exactly good. Polar in the black and making money, Atlas transferring assets,and flying using Polar as an ACMI customer, the list goes on and on. Your (Atlas) MEC dismissed it as an arbitrator's bias against ACMI flying instead of admitting they were in trouuble and better regroup Instead they gave a lot of b.s. to the union instead of admitting they screwed up. I think you had better take a good hard look at your council. They seem awfully close to J.C.. In fact if Cato made a sudden hard right turn Caputo would probably break his nose.
Lastly, the list is just that, a list and may not even see the light of day. Lighten up and wait to see what happens down the road. I seriously doubt you guys will ever merge. It is Cato's way of keeping things stirred up. Don't you think he didn't know this would happen. He may be evil but he is not stupid.
Now as for who's side won, how many people forgot the testimonies at the arbitration? If you want to read it you can. It didn't make Atlas look exactly good. Polar in the black and making money, Atlas transferring assets,and flying using Polar as an ACMI customer, the list goes on and on. Your (Atlas) MEC dismissed it as an arbitrator's bias against ACMI flying instead of admitting they were in trouuble and better regroup Instead they gave a lot of b.s. to the union instead of admitting they screwed up. I think you had better take a good hard look at your council. They seem awfully close to J.C.. In fact if Cato made a sudden hard right turn Caputo would probably break his nose.
Lastly, the list is just that, a list and may not even see the light of day. Lighten up and wait to see what happens down the road. I seriously doubt you guys will ever merge. It is Cato's way of keeping things stirred up. Don't you think he didn't know this would happen. He may be evil but he is not stupid.
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There was a typo on the "no bump no flush" part of the letter. The revision should be out later this week.
I think DOH with a fence for the Polar crews would have been fair also. It is obvious this list is skewed towards Polar. (There, I said it!)
But, you have to remember... the Atlas MEC did not propose a "DOH with Fences list" to the arbitrator. We all saw what the Atlas MEC proposed list looked like, and it was essentially a huge staple job for the Polar pilots. I really think that if the Atlas MEC could have been a little more reasonable and proposed a fair list, the arbitrator might have been inclined to lean closer to the middle.
Just my opinion, but it looks like the Atlas MEC screwed the pooch again on this one. There are now working so close with Cato and management that they are blind to what is happening in the real world. The fact is, if Caputo does not get re-elected, he is SOL. If my memory serves, he doesn't even have a medical any more. I hear rumors that he is in line for a position in Purchase. All rumors of course... but this is the "Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network."
You guys need to vote in some new leadership.
I think DOH with a fence for the Polar crews would have been fair also. It is obvious this list is skewed towards Polar. (There, I said it!)
But, you have to remember... the Atlas MEC did not propose a "DOH with Fences list" to the arbitrator. We all saw what the Atlas MEC proposed list looked like, and it was essentially a huge staple job for the Polar pilots. I really think that if the Atlas MEC could have been a little more reasonable and proposed a fair list, the arbitrator might have been inclined to lean closer to the middle.
Just my opinion, but it looks like the Atlas MEC screwed the pooch again on this one. There are now working so close with Cato and management that they are blind to what is happening in the real world. The fact is, if Caputo does not get re-elected, he is SOL. If my memory serves, he doesn't even have a medical any more. I hear rumors that he is in line for a position in Purchase. All rumors of course... but this is the "Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network."
You guys need to vote in some new leadership.
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Y
Now as for who's side won, how many people forgot the testimonies at the arbitration? If you want to read it you can. It didn't make Atlas look exactly good. Polar in the black and making money, Atlas transferring assets,and flying using Polar as an ACMI customer, the list goes on and on.
Now as for who's side won, how many people forgot the testimonies at the arbitration? If you want to read it you can. It didn't make Atlas look exactly good. Polar in the black and making money, Atlas transferring assets,and flying using Polar as an ACMI customer, the list goes on and on.
Your (Atlas) MEC dismissed it as an arbitrator's bias against ACMI flying instead of admitting they were in trouuble and better regroup Instead they gave a lot of b.s. to the union instead of admitting they screwed up.
I think you had better take a good hard look at your council. They seem awfully close to J.C.. In fact if Cato made a sudden hard right turn Caputo would probably break his nose.
Lastly, the list is just that, a list and may not even see the light of day. Lighten up and wait to see what happens down the road. I seriously doubt you guys will ever merge. It is Cato's way of keeping things stirred up. Don't you think he didn't know this would happen. He may be evil but he is not stupid.
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Doesn't really answer what "no bump no flush no system re-bid" means to the average Polar/Atlas guy though. I'm curious what the Polar MEC is saying to the masses. Depending on future events, the award may have little effect on Atlas crewmembers. While the list hurts looking at it up front, it seems the conditions placed in the award leave us an out of sorts.
Just my opinion, but it looks like the Atlas MEC screwed the pooch again on this one. There are now working so close with Cato and management that they are blind to what is happening in the real world. The fact is, if Caputo does not get re-elected, he is SOL. If my memory serves, he doesn't even have a medical any more. I hear rumors that he is in line for a position in Purchase. All rumors of course... but this is the "Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network."
I see that is the latest mantra from the Polar MEC to his underground communications committee. To say and do anything to get rid of the Bourne and Caputo MEC. I can understand this since the Amussen and Weiss Atlas MEC gave Polar everything they ever wanted and effectively shot every Atlas crewmember in the head. I new Amussen and Fell were buddies, but I didn't know at the time it was going to cost all the Atlas crews upgrades and continued employment from their friendship.
You better get used to Bourne and Caputo. They have been the only one's to actually try to mend fences, work with Polar without giving everything away, and all they have recieved from Polar is complete disappointment and attacks at the prompting of the Polar MEC. Those BTW can be reiviewed under the "who is the buyer for Polar" thread.
You guys need to vote in some new leadership.
Yes, I'm sure you want someone like Weiss in there. Someone willing to give away everything to Polar and recieve nothing positive in return let alone the betrayals we did get.
You might as well get over it, if we do merge, the Atlas group knows that anything or anyone supported by Polar will cost them dearly. If nothing else, we do have solidarity enough to make sure no one ends up on the combined company MEC from Polar or any committee. That has been guaranteed by Polar's actions and not by the standing Atlas MEC.
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Mods - HELP !!!
Mods;
Can't you merge ALL the Atlas/Polar union slanging threads into one, PLEASE, so that the FREIGHT DOGS area can get back to discussing operational air freight issues without every new thread turning into the same old BORING slanging match between three or four individuals?
Thank you.
Can't you merge ALL the Atlas/Polar union slanging threads into one, PLEASE, so that the FREIGHT DOGS area can get back to discussing operational air freight issues without every new thread turning into the same old BORING slanging match between three or four individuals?
Thank you.
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mercpc9,
You mis-read my post. I said YOU GUYS need to vote in some new leadership, not us.
We are all quite happy with our MEC. I know you have been following current events, but for those who haven't...we have won two VERY important arbitrations and were just awarded a merged seniority list that is fair.
What can you say about your MEC? What have they done for you lately?
(I actually hope you guys keep them, it will be interesting to see how much more they can screw up)
You mis-read my post. I said YOU GUYS need to vote in some new leadership, not us.
We are all quite happy with our MEC. I know you have been following current events, but for those who haven't...we have won two VERY important arbitrations and were just awarded a merged seniority list that is fair.
What can you say about your MEC? What have they done for you lately?
(I actually hope you guys keep them, it will be interesting to see how much more they can screw up)
Atlas is now 570 crewmembers (not counting AACS) and Polar is 170 crewmembers,,,,looks like Polar lost
Polar has downgraded,,,,looks like Polar lost
Polar will NOT be the surviving carrier,,,,,looks like Polar lost
Polar will NOT get to bring their furloughs back in bump and roll........looks like Polar lost
Polar has lost all 200s while we still have ours,,,,,,,,,looks like Polar lost
Polar will cease to exist at the end of 2007.....looks like Polar lost
Polar F/E's will get to come back, then immed furloughed,,,,,,looks like Polar won but lost
Polar will not ever be getting new aircraft.....looks like Polar lost.
Polar will not get their wish to have Atlas crews SHARE the furlough in the new merged list
looks like Polar lost.
That's all I have at the moment.
As a note to the MODS. I would be perfectly happy to have these threads closed down and even have myself and the other Polar posters banned. I realize that would be impossible with your current system. They will just pop up again under a different name and thread.
I never would have been here if it wasn't for the Atlas bashing going on as an anonymous forum for the Polar MEC hate campaign.
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merc,
Polar will "not be the surviving carrier"?
"Will cease to exist after 07"
"will not be getting new aircraft"?
Is all that an arbitrators ruling or just an opinion???
Just asking
Polar will "not be the surviving carrier"?
"Will cease to exist after 07"
"will not be getting new aircraft"?
Is all that an arbitrators ruling or just an opinion???
Just asking
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<see the Atlas employee exchange archives>
Polar Air Cargo will be gone - the certificate will be owned by Polar Worldwide.
<see the DHL announcement>
Some of the announcements of the 747-8 purchase said "Atlas Air Inc, a subsidiary of Atlas Air World Wide Holdings has placed orders for ....."
The DHL deal is for Polar Worldwide (essentially the routes and access to the US markets). The flying will all be accomplished by the Atlas pilots (remember the Polar pilots will be known as Atlas Pilots) who will be able to fly either the Atlas ACMI flights or the Polar Worldwide flights on whichever aircraft AAWH decides to populate the particular certificate with.
So really it all doesn't matter as essentially we will all be one big happy familiy just like NWA and Republic, Delta and Western, American and Reno, Alaska and Jet America, US Air and America West (and Delta?) etc etc
I can hardly wait to see Bobb, Bobbin, and HomerBob in an Atlas uniform.
Ain't this fun.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 27th Nov 2006 at 02:07.
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