Cargolux details requested!

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

social security question...

Hi guys,

with intrest I have been browsing this tread for pages and pages....Thanks for all the info, being good or bad news.

I am an expat pilot from a neigbouring country to LUX, currently flying in the sandpit, looking to move back closer to home.

I have read all the posts here and I felt a sudden nostalgic emotion welling up....Fights between unions and management, fights within the unions between its members, assemblees generales etc etc....

I have read as well the posts ,written by very senior CV guys without a doubt, warning us for all possible pitfalls that lie ahead etc...

But in all honesty, after having read it all, I still feel CV is one of the best jobs around in the region.

Myself however I have been on HOLD with interpersonal since a couple of month due to the fact that all training slots are occupied. I meet the requirements by far and I remain confident that soon I will get my shot at an assessment.

What I am interisted in finding out is more info about social security. I have read here allready that, when you join CV you are able to continue with social security benefits etc..However, somebody put there is a short sentence that guys coming back from overseas might face some problems there...

I thought you only had a 6 months waiting period after you start paying the contributions again and thats it....

Anyone more info about that?

Another issue would be seniority list. Believe me, I am in favour of a seniority list after heaving delt with the ambigous middle eastern system for many years. One thin that worries me a bit though is the fact that its an unbalanced bidding system based purely on seniority. There is no rotation whatsoever. This means that, if I would be allowed to join, I could find yself getting the last choices year in year out untill I might have 30 FOs behind me.....thats a loooooong time to be going on leave in feb and nov every year!

Is this assumption of mine is the truth or am I wrong....

Once more, thanks for the info....

[rwy24c]

Your assumption regarding seniority is correct!
People were worried about this when the company had 50 pilots...
People were worried about this when the company had 100 pilots...
People were worried about this when the company had 150 pilots...
People were worried about this when the company had 200 pilots...
... enough?
Currently we have 370 pilots...
Cargolux is still expanding...
and - you are right - it is a very good company to work for!
Good luck to you!
rwy24c

btw: in Jan/Feb you can travel New Zealand or Australia, go sailing in the Caribbean, go skiing in the Alps...

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Rwy 24C,


so I see people have been worrying about this ever since the beginning.
Off course, the bigger the company becomes, the slower the systemgets as well.

On big question than remains....how much longer will the CV expansion go on and How big is the actual expansion?

370 pilots is a lot allready but is no big deal when another 200 will join. On the other hand when only 30 more are looked for than you are in worse shape...

Does anybody knows the answer on my social security question?

Thanks a lot

[ray cosmic]

Sgnr, The 50 being trained next year are apparently only there to cover the FTLs for the current amount of aircraft. Any expansion would require more crew, so I bet my lunchmoney the number will increase to at least 500 pilots.

[Jungleland]

Today CV have 14 a/c and 370 pilots (about), and they need more pilots to cover current ops with 14 a/c.

I hear that in five six seven years they will have 25 a/c and 600 pilots. Next year, and the years to come, will at least 30 pilots join per year.

The ten options of 747-8 I hear are now firm orders as well, so from 2009 20 747-8 are coming, plus they will keep some of the "old" -400's, of which two more is on their way, one in July '07 and the last one in January '08.

But changes happen all the time...

/jungleland

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Thanks R.C. for the PM...

So if these numbers are correct and with the average age of pilots being very young at CV you are looking at at least 10 years in the right seat. ( If nothing changes). Upgrades are only caused by the expansion if I understand correctly.

Thats about the same as CX...

Salary as well is about the same as CX....

Shedules are the same as CX.....

One would almost say that the two companies are copies of eachother hen ( Talking only about CX freight division)

I am sure many of you considered both airlines at a time before joining CV. Would you mind sharing with us why you went for CV and not CX?

I would appreciate that a lot....

Thanks

[rwy24c]

CV and CX are certainly not about the same.

Huge differences in company culture, esp. in flight crew training...
CV treats the SIM as a training tool and we have really fantastic people in our training dept.
(For comparison check CX threads in fragrant harbour forum.)

And our route structure is much more interesting...

btw: not too many people have had a job offer from CV and CX at the same time.
may be they don't look for the same kind of people..?

once again: good luck to you!

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Thanks for the reply rwy 24c.


that was exactly the reply I was looking for. I needed to see my suspicion confirmed about the differences in compnay structure and philosophy.

While, as you said, on the surface both look the same the underlying difference is totally different. Exactly what I was hoping to see/hear. I know CX a little bit and I have to say, I am not to keen on the British/australian mentality overthere.

I just wanted to see this confirmed...


All the reasons are lining up quit nicely as far as I am concerned...

[ray cosmic]

Sgnr, check your PM.

[Buster Hyman]

I am not to keen on the British/australian mentality overthere.

Oh I dunno...there's a few Aussie pilots at CV I'd be keeping a close eye on!

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Hey Buster,


dont get me wrong here mate. When talking about the British/Australian mentality I was not at all targetting the people themselves. My best friends here in the sandpit are Ozzies. Great people to have as friends and great company to crack some beers with...

What I ment was the mentality in flying, where training is regarded as checking, backstabbing is the modus vivendi and the only way up is via the arse of your superior....

I am sure you know what I mean....Just look at operations like EK or CX.

Up to now I have been getting the impression that in CV it is not like that. I know, before you all start hammering me 'the newbee' again , that its is far from perfect but I do believe there is more of a european mentality present there...

Please correct me if wrong.....

Take care

[emergency descent]

What you are talking about is mostlikely that what is known by many as the "british military style" found for example at CX.
You will find nothing even similar to that at CV.
The main philosophy is "we make mistakes every day, the sim is here that you learn something" Everything is very relaxed.
The Lux. social system is not to bad at all. You will get full medical enshurance, a lost of licence inshurance, a state pension scheme as well as one from the company on top. You are protected if you loose your job...
I think it is a mix between Germany and France.

[Buster Hyman]

Didn't get you wrong mate! Took it with the grain of salt it came with.

I have seen the "expat" mentality at CX first hand. (Qualification: I know that not ALL of them are like this) It came as a shock to one Capt. when the smartarse comments he dished out came flying back at him quick smart! He wasn't used to any come backs from mere locals. He knew what was good for him if he wanted his loadsheet!

[Otto Matic]

Is the Cargolux pension a final salary scheme?

[ray cosmic]

The State pension most people are entitled to get uses the final salary as reference, but there is a maximum - 5 times LUX minimum wage, currently at around €1500- of which you are entitled to get up to 80% (not 100% sure though). The rest is arranged in an extralegal pensionscheme in which the pilot makes a volantary contribution, and in which the company chips in as well.

[IOLAR60]

Typical Roster/Work schedule

Hello again guys,
Could anyone give me an insight into a typical months schedule for a First Officer at the bottom of the seniority list?

It would be much appreciated.
happy landings
Iolar

[ray cosmic]

I actually don't think that exists. There's a biddingsystem which is seniority based, but you can only request so much.

[Jungleland]

What I've heard...

13 rosters, everyone 28 days. In this roster you have 3 and 6 days off in two blocks, both blocks have 24hrs rest in front so effectively you have one block of 4 days and one of 6 days. 42 days vac a year gives 3,23 days/roster (min 12 hrs rest before) (although you have to take min of 5 days).

This gives in average 14,5 days REST/OFF/VAC per 28 days roster. If you're lucky you have one or two blank days per roster. The rest of the time you can consider being on the road.

With low seniority you very seldom get to south America and USA, Australia and New Zeeland, but end up in Africa some, but mainly Asia.

Is this what you expected?

[TheRednosedReindeer]

Originally Posted by IOLAR60

Hello again guys,
Could anyone give me an insight into a typical months schedule for a First Officer at the bottom of the seniority list?
It would be much appreciated.
happy landings
Iolar

Typical roster may be hard to tell, but here's the kind of typical trip that is increasingly common, as planning TRIES - to plan us more eficiently:

LUX-BAK-HKG-BAK-PVG-BAK-LUX with +-24h rest everywhere exept 36h at BAK in the middle (in order to stay legal).

People with good seniority AND some computer background may manage to outsmart the bidding system in order to avoid those trips.

If that kind of OPS is to your liking, then yes, CV is certainly a good bet.
Unfortunately, most people only find out when they're there, how their body reacts to this.

@Sgnr de L'Atlantique:
You seem to be amazingly good at numbers, I'd say you're quite right on perspectives based on expansion; adding to this, the current rate of upgrading is around 20/year, compared to what? 50? new F/O's (don't now the exact figures on that fronline), that means it's a snowball game - every year you join later gets you two more years in the right seat, unless....

somethoing changes -
- the rate of expansion increases to cope with the market
- suddenly new business pops up, like manning A/C for others...
- people start flocking away from CV
or on the negative side:
- they find a way to reduce the crew factor (tried that before, no success, but devastating results: 03/04 had very few upgrades, 2 more F/O-years for all of us)
- someone buys CV and puts us all at the end of the list
- some important Luxie gets cold feet and blocks further expansion (happened before, came together with a.m. crew factor issue)

So your 10 years estimate are IMHO possible, but rather optimistic.

If you join anyway:
Welcome aboard!

P.S.: You're very detailed with your qestions, but I think that's better than to find out too late....

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Hi guys,


thanks once more for the many answers. The reason behind my apparently detailed questions is that I am really confronted with a huge dillemma.

As you know I am currently flying in the sandpit. Most of you have been here so you know that most places are not very nice to live in to say the least. I can not imagine anyone of you requesting an OTBD layover for example...

I came here after the SN/SR drama so it has been a couple of years now. For me its rather OK to stay here because I am away anyway most of the time but he missus is starting to complain...

On the other hand I will shift to the left seat of an aircraft within 6-8 months from now, possibly on an A330. Seniority wise I am at the top of the foodchain here so I can basically do what I want but....

Anyhow, the time has come to make a desision. Stay here and become a skipper but than stay for at least 3 more years ( without any clue what will happen after that period...)or come back to europe , choose for the lifestyle and sit on the right seat for another 10 years.

I know we can all go to the likes of EZ and others but in all honesty I would rather stay here than. I did my part of flying four sector days in foul weather all across europe for some years...

So if I come back to europe I would like to enter a long haul ops like CV. I have a few options but CV ranks at the top.

I do not mind those rosters you mentioned earlier. I am used to that anyway. We stretch CAP 372 FT/DT limitations to the absolute maximum overhere and the route structure is mainly east-west flying so we are the kings of jetlag..

Cargo flying does not bother me at all, it is rather the opposite...

I would love to fly those nice 747 s after an all Airbus career untill now.

CV salary is good and future financial whoes are being taken care of ..

I am a little bit worried about the seniority system but hey, I guess thats something we all have to go through anyway.

As I said, a dilemma....


But hey, keep the info coming....all info is more than appreciated!