In general CRM is crap at CX. The Captains - although in genereal very knowledgeable - are put up on a pedestal. One to many CMDs have still not realized, mainly due to lack of ability and education from the company side, that civilavition is no longer a one mans show. Its still common to come across a long sleeved brit (at least on the -400) who thinks his god and that he is flying on the best F...... airplane in the world for the best F...... airline on the best F...... CoS - it might be the best F..... airplane (-400) in the world (and who cares about anything as materialistic as that?!) but boys I've got news (or maybe not!) - it AIN'T the best F...... airline in the world - what leaves us back to where "we" started.. Guys and Girls are LEAVING this outfit - for reasons that is oh so obvious - take a glance through this little "oasis" section - Fragrant Habour - it speaks for it self. The only other "airline" that seems to be pulling an equal amount of !!!! is Ryanair - and that is for other reasons than this one..
And right - I wonder if that dude who has the guts to hit on Americans (though I can find many other reasons to hit on you guys ;o) ) with pathetic arguments like "go fly your CRJ/F14 etc.." - shows the attitude within CX at its worst!
Im very happy for many of you/us that our industry once again are moving towards new hights - go for the greener grass - its is out there - trust me on that one. If you have the chance to stay "home" (and thats what you want) - do just that and wait for the bigger ones there to call you.
Good luck chaps and gals.
Y

boy this is fun.

I have no more to say.

Any Brits out there?

Yes, but too dignified to join this childish slanging match!

Actually I do have more to say.
I'm really getting sick and tired of the grownups out there that can't accept the fact that they failed. They keep blaming everyone possible except for themselves. That's right, in most cases ( and there are exceptions ) they can only hold themselves responsible for their problems. If they've been doing their job in Cx for a number of years then any upgrade should be a achievable. The system is not perfect, there are trainers who shouldn't be training but..........an upgrade is achievable to the average guy.
The only way Cx is accountable is in hiring these guys in the first place.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts ..............
The same thing goes for KA command failures. I know a few that failed on their first attempt at command in KA too, they blamed everybody under the sun except themselves. After they passed the second attempt they woke up and accepted they weren't prepared the first time.
So who is the best Airline in the world? Cx isn't, who is? But we are at the top of the tree and I'll damn sure stand up for what I know to be right. Cx standards are some of the highest in the Airline community. Sure there used to be Captains on the 400 that didn't know the first thing about CRM, fortunately just about all of them have long retired and the current bunch are exceptional. It's even better on the 777 fleet. Ask any FO who flies it.
I've worked for 3 major Airlines in a 20+ year career, 14 of those in Cx so I think I have a little perspective. I've flown with Kiwi's, Yanks, Canadians, South Africans, Brits and Australians and it really doesn't matter where they're from it what's inside em that counts.As the yanks like to say "the right stuff" Cx is like any new job, you have to fit in. Now I accept that a few new joiners don't fit in here at Cx. They have a choice, move on or fit in. Quite simple really, but to blame the rest of us here is ludicrous in the extreme. Cx is not a fly by night aeroclub, it didn't just happen overnight. We have nearly 2,100 Pilots, over 100 WIDEBODY aircraft and over 60 years of development in this outfit and still counting, nothing is standing still. This company makes huge money, more money than you can imagine and thay have a well earned reputation. This is FACT, and I'm sorry if I get emotional but to think some 18 month wonder knows all that's wrong with Cx flight ops makes me sick to my stomach. He wouldn't know the first thing about Cx after 18 months.
I'm not sure I'm making sense???????? probaby not!! But you can't blame me for getting a little defensive everytime I hear someone slag off Cx and our "crap standards"
p.s. Don't forget the UA 744 that had an engine failure at VR in SFO, damn near took out the houses because the PF ( FO ) ONLY used ther ailerons to keep it straight while the Captain did ...................................nothing.

...and ditto all the above for KA. Seems the mother is setting the "standards" for its new puppy, peeing its self with glee for its low cost acquisition. Not crap standards, but crap everything else. Can I leave, no sir those golden handcuffs wont budge boss.....

I left CX about 4 years ago and have flown UK charter and am now at BA for the very reasons highlighted previously in between the bickering.
I found CX training to be variable at best, confrontational at worst. I achieved the required standard in each and every sim, without negative feedback, by now I would have likely achieved command.
I find it staggering that individuals such as ACMS rant defensively about the indefensible, the CX training department requires the clean broom treatment, it also requires a reality check because without it, there may not be enough junior ranks left to operate an already stretched operating schedule.
Leaving CX opened my eyes to a training environment that actively encourages learning, an environment that is transparent, an environment that recognizes that we are all individuals with strengths an weaknesses.
Reading this thread makes me glad of where I am.

Reply to post #87, what was said near the end
 

This guy has made very nasty insults about the U.S. Army needing new chopper pilots and has just felt it appropriate to bring up UAL incident out of SFO almost hitting the hill years ago.

This kind of bias is a perfect example of how Cathay works. I'll give ten to one odds that this fellow is a training, and probably one of the really nasty ones that guys always call in sick for because he can ruin their career progress with the stroke of the computer key typing up the ERAS report after seven glasses of wine in Dakotas. (but I'm sure he is so professional that he doesn't let his opinions affect his objectivity)

And before you throw stones, you might want to talk about the Cx crew who flew a go-around with the autopilot off when they thought it was on, or the crew that almost took a dip in the ocean of runways 07. I've got more, but what is the point. This guy is a complete tool. Too many of his like are in charge.

Hats off to all who leave and plan to leave. Numbers are finally talking!

I'm going to print his posts and keep them in my filing cabinet to take them out if there is ever a day in my life (not likely) that I'll ever regret leaving that fricking place.

These days I am happy to go to work. Less money, work a few more days, but life is good! Life is too short to put your career at the mercy of these tools.

ACMS,

Cathay the highest airline standard in the world? wow!! I didn't think even you would say something that stupid.

newsflash: saying "check" a million times from Top of Descent to touchdown is not the definition of "high standard".

get a clue mate!!

You guys have 7 different manuals where information is repeated EVERYWHERE!! It is by far the MOST disorganized flight ops department I've ever worked for..and CX was my 4th airline!

ACMS you really have been there too long. I agree with CAN NOT CX is basically a GA company with a nice train set. Their procedures are pathetic. (I still haven't after 8 years been able to get a straight answer from a TC about who should be doing what during the last 100ft of an LVP approach.) I've worked for 3 majors and these guys are by far the worst airline I have worked for. They really have no clue. What is it with you and this "your bitter because you failed an upgrade BS" your probably just bitter because someone YOU failed on a check just happens to have a life!! I think it's time you left CX in search of your life ACMS......

CAN-NOT: If you re-read my post you will see the following:
I didn't say Cx was the best, we aint. But we are up there with the best.
RegretCX: seems you never read FCOM 3 for your fleet. Mate I've done probably 26 sim checks with LWMO and another real LWMO approaches in the 400 and 777 and I can tell you it works just fine. The PF ( captain ) makes the decision at the DA and the PNF stays heads down throughout the landing roll to call out any problems. What exactly do you find hard about that? It's the same in QF, BA and other Boeing standard airlines. It's not rocket science my friend. If you couldn't get a straight answer from a T/C then either he shouldn't be a T/C or you should learn to ask better questions. ( yes as I said before some T/C's shouldn't be doing it )
I am not a T/C, not enough money offered to offset the 30% increase in work, I'll keep my average lifestyle now and wait for a better roster flying the 300ER and the end of this year.
Cx have come close to CFIT before, no arguments there. By using the UA SFO example I was trying to point out that other Airlines are not perfect either.
Anyway you voted with your feet and for that you should be commended. You have done nothing to hurt the rest of us who FIT IN here at Cx, indeed you may just help us get a little bit more.:ok:
I know that I'm really looking forward to going to work in a few days and I know for a fact the F/O I'm flying with is too.
Cheers, and good luck with your careers.
over and out.

Either God or Gus!! Same thing right?

Wow!

After a hearty breakfast of fried eggs on toast with slightly burned but otherwise nicely fried tomatoes, complimented, at regular intervals, with ice-cold orange juice, I looked about for something to do.

There's the vaccumming, or I could clean the toilets; I might make my bed, or I might also read the newspaper, an almost archaic ritual.

Deciding to go with the proven maxim that one should never do now what can safely be put off till tomorrow, I turned on the kettle.

Feeling quite content with a nice old cup of tea, I sat down to peruse the Fragrant Harbor Forum in order that I might be more aware of how my bretheren are doing up there in Asia's World (and most polluted) City.

The thread did seem to drift off-course on Page Four, didn't it......:}

I recall taking a cab in the very early 90's to Sheikh Zayed Road's Crowne Plaza to call on a Cathay Pacific colleague, who I didn't know from Adam, for a coffee in his hotel's lounge, wherein we discussed the merits of joining CX - all the way back then!

To wit, I took his advice and remained with my employer of the time, not even filling out the application form that was eventually posted to me.

I earned my four bars some time thereafter, and though the going has been tough since, both there and at my new place of employment, it has never been like that described at CX, now on the PPRuNe or back then in the coffee lounge.

The internet is, as Tom Friedman punches home in 'The World is Flat', an extraordinary tool.

Some say the PPRuNe is full of bombast and bluster.

There's some truth to that, and although we often take what we want to read or hear from a circumstance, I for one feel the PPRuNe, used wisely and with caution, can be very revealing indeed.

Wow a whole 2100 Pilots and 100 Aircraft. There are Airlines who have laid off more than this and who are re-hiring, so in reality CX is barely playing in the real world!
Obviously a Captain who has had the chips on both shoulders inserted by those clever men on floor three, lets keep up with the terms shall we, PF and PM, or has it changed in the last few days?
LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!

Guys,
I regret sounding a bit harsh on the last few posts on here as that is not the intent! I only responded to this thread in the first place because it applies to me, since I left. Did not mean to make it a "yank" vs. anybody else thing. Many have left, but certainly not EVERYONE was an American. There are fair shares of Europeans leaving as well. Some back to old jobs and some to other LCC in Europe. But Mr. ACMS only thinks CX is losing pilots because us "yanks" can not handle the CATHAY WAY. Everyone who has left can handle it. We just chose not to put up with it.

Last thing I want to say is I hope things will improve at CX for the better, but I better not take the risk of offending our senior A scalers who still think CX is heaven on earth therefore no change is ever needed!

Hey, we didn't want to put up and shut up so we packed up and left. It was a nice train set, too bad a bunch of brats own it.

I joined CX in Aug. of 2004 as S/O (still no upgrading in sight!). So far, of the 8 that started together, there's only 2 left.

One guy left 1 week after his LFUS.
One guy (last guy's sim partner) went to EasyJet after 1 year
One guy went to JetStar after 2 years
One guy went UPS after 2 years
One guy bailed after they extended his probation to 2 years
One guy went back to fly corporate after 2 years

Bad thing is all these people were all "junior" to me! I didn't even gain anything out of it. Bummer!!

I CAN'T WIN. BLOODY HELL

Rock_On:----- nope not god, the jobs taken by someone else. Maybe Gus has it?
kanot:------- Let me get this straight, you'd like the FO heads up at the DA of around 50' to 150' at 150 kts in 20 kts crosswind with 200 m vis making the decision to land/go-around? How do you think that would look in a subsequent court of law? "so Captain why did you let the FO fly the plane when most clearly it should have been you"?
There is a time and a place for the FO to fly and another when the Captain must fly. I'm not being a ****** and saying that the FO couldn't do it, it's just that I get paid to be the A/C commander not him. Besides I like to make my own stuff ups and don't need the FO to make them for me in such a critical situation as LWMO.Why don't you ask an insurance assessor what he thinks.
You FO's will have your day soon enough, I spent 15 years as an FO in 3 different Airlines and you didn't hear me saying this crap.
Now go away and do a little growing up boys.

CAN-NOT

"LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!"

No, This is a team effort operated by a crew. If you don't understand that its no wonder you've had problems. Personaly, I still feel that the original monitored approach by BA is the best system for LWMO (where the FO flys the aircraft to DA and goes around unless the Captain says "LAND" and has has control).

For those interested in BA their failure rate has gone up considerably since Hamble closed. Like all jobs if you get on the dragside you're going to have to work to get back on top.:=

I thought this LVP stuff was all very straight forward at Cathay? Why are we still debating this point? It, according to ACMS is all very straight forward. :ugh: :ugh: Oh and by the way ACMS I'm probably older than you anyway so lighten up on the "grow up sonny" !!!!e. You're not impressing me one bit!! You just really show us how much of a tosser you really are. Iv'e probably flown with you and waved goodbye with relief as we've left the terminal. Flying with you sounds as appealing as a barbed wire enema.

Well I'm a lot older than I look:(
Not one 777 FO I have ever flown with has ever left CX.
Infact I quite often get guys bid for the same trips to fly with me, we have a blast on the line. You my friend are missing out.:ok:
oh and LWMO is quite straight forward, as is any approach using Cx std calls and proceedures. Maybe you should check with Qf, they have different calls for different approaches. Something a Qf mate tells me is quite a pain in the ass.

Acms: I assume you mean voluntarily as I know a few who have had the decision made for them !

FG

Five green:- I assume you are responding to my comment that no FO I ever flew with has left Cx????? No FO that I have flown with in Cx has ever left the company either voluntarily or otherwise.
Bye the way.........I fully support any Cx Pilot leaving to get a better job, if they can do it then fantastic for them. This applies to any nationality.

Well if you're so content and FO's are falling over themselves to fly with you (have a look in the mirror mate) then you really don't need to be on this website venting your spleen. You should be at the bar surrounded by the adoring ladies and the other guys that just wish they were you.:yuk: :yuk:




Maybe Not.

PS I notice you have tried to qualify your QF boast. I am still open eared to your BA LVP assessment!! Be careful, sometimes BS can come back and bite you on the ass!!

In the early days of this thread I had hoped that the initial adult discussion of why folk were leaving would produce some useful indicators of what is going wrong. Instead (as usual unfortunately) it has been hijacked by the angry brigade. I cannot believe that work colleagues stoop to mud-slinging, in the public domain, in a way that now more resembles a school playground. Maybe it is just a vociferous minority - maybe not.

Nevertheless it is as well to remember that this is not a closed circuit CX board - it is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Time to look in the mirror perhaps?

'nuff said.

What a load of nancy BS Nulla.............what ever is said here is the truth......you know we can't all get together in the plaza and nut it out......................this is the only place we can vent!!! I also heard a 777 pax FO has left recently...............................

Definitely a vociferous minority!

If I was a new joiner would I consider leaving? Absolutely!

Why? Well, the last pay rise was 6 years ago. Despite CPI figures the cost of living has gone up dramatically since then no matter where you live. Over the last few years the USD/HKD has severely devalued against the many countries our pilots come from. The threat of RA60 delaying upgrades for a few years is more disconcerting than the 'bonus' of being able to work for an extra 5 years. HKG pollution is getting worse. Out workload has gone up almost 20% over the last 6 years...based on aircraft orders it is quite possible that a further increase in productivity will be required although this may lead to some overtime!

Why do many of us stay?
Well there is the obvious 'sunk cost' bias...we have already done a few years and we would be throwing that away. For aussies and kiwis the options are arguably much worse than CX now! Euros and yanks have many more options.

The point of this thread was to discuss why people leave. I still have no problem recommending CX to aussies(we aren't so bright) as I think it is the best option going for aussies.

As CX has been pushing for over a decade....MARKET FORCES. Personally I like seeing people leave(especially try hard and regret cx) as it means things might improve here and/or may put upward pressure on salary! But unfortunately many of our competitors have been offering salary and conditions inferior to us for many years (I am obviously ignoring some of the Euro LCC and US carriers). The chapter 11 sagas from the states have fed an insatiable airline appetite for hungry pilots but it appears, finally, the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way!

Try hard and regret cx...I dont have a problem with you leaving...I have a problem with what appears to be "I'm right, you are all idiots for staying" attitude. I can assure you I CHOOSE to stay...I dont think it is perfect in CX...it is just that my !!!! bucket isn't full yet...and my $$ bucket is nearly empty thanks to a mistimed divorce;-) So I will stay until my !!!! bucket gets full as that is far more likely than the $$ bucket ever being full. But there is more to life than money.

Viva la tolerance...why is it so important to have everyone agree with you? Accept that CX can drive some people crazy whilst people like me just laugh at the foibles of the system. I guess I work to live, not live to work, so maybe that is why I am so much more tolerant?!

I can't control what CX do...I cannot change how C+T is carried out...what I can do is control the environment in my cockpit (one advantage of the 4 stripes). For the 4 stripe challenged...you cant change what happens to you, you can only change your reaction to it! If you fly with someone you dont like, just remember it is only for a few hours. You dont have to socialise with him (I just realised why I am always alone on overnights!)...life is too short to let some 4bar or the system get you down.

Flying can be fun...lighten up. If CX isn't for you, move on. But dont piss on everyone that CHOOSES to stay!

no fanfare
 

How come when a pilot leaves for another fleet or retires does the Chief Pilot make mention of it in their fleet news....but when they leave to go back to their old airline (or are fired), no mention, no accolades.
"FO Smith leaves us after 13 months of service to try to salvage whats left of his dignity. Good luck to him at his old job as a check captain at United..."

ACMS, liar liar.... P D left and I assume you have flown with him.

Capt TOGA: as a matter of fact I never flew with PD, ot TP or the other 777 FO's that went to VB. Sorry to dissappoint ya but I'm not a liar liar.
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you?
Regret Cx: I didn't say that did i? I am here defending the Cx system from you bunch slagging off crap, I didn't start this thread boyoh.
My Qf boast???? what the hell are you smoking?????? I have about 5 close friends in Qf ( 3 are Captians and 2 FO's ) and only yesterday the topic of standard calls on approach came up with one of them, it appears they have different calls for visual approaches, LWMO approaches and normal ILS approaches. That's what he told me after he asked me what we do in Cx. So tell me what do BA do then?
This is getting a little stupid don't you think????? You left Cx, we stayed. Now it's time to move on emotionally don't you think? you must learn to let it go or it will destroy you. Get on with your life.
:ok:

So what if no one you actually flew with quit ! What are you the great equalizer ?

The fact is this airline is going to have to move to a more modern way of thinking if it wants to grow. You cannot continue the present training and management system as the pilot numbers grow. The system will only alianate more and more FOs. You may notice that once you are a Captain here life is good. Hence ACMS and NC etc are pretty happy. For those of us taking the most of the abuse from the left seat and from the training department life is not so good. No surprise FOs and SOs are leaving.

When will the commercial side wake up to the problems that the training department is creating ?

FG

ASMC
 

But I thought Pattie left, didn't he? And it sounds like you have flown with him on the 777.

What I don't understand is why you guys are at each other's throats over this.
Are you guys seriously hoping that management will peruse this forum and realize, "Oh, $hit, we've got to do something-quick."
I know some pretty naiive people, but...

If it is really that bad, wouldn't it make sense to stand up as a GROUP, and voice one's displeasures to the right channels?
Now you're going to say, "Ah, that won't work", or, "We've tried", or something like that.
The way I see it, if you're gonna walk, why not go out with a bang. I mean, you're going to leave anyway, right?


The grass all over the world has brown spots on it!

ACT700,

We are too afraid of getting sacked for doing that. I've never lived under communism, but I think Cathay is pretty close! Speaking up at Cathay Pacific is a death wish!

One of the high ranking Flight Operations manager is Phil Walker and his nickname is "Kim Jong Phil". Can you venture a guess? Like I said..these boys run the company like it was a Communist outfit.

Actually to be fair, the boys DID STAND UP, then the Company introduced the infamous 49ers, then we've been shut ever since. (re-enactment of Tinenimen Square)

To last a long time at Cathay Pacific, you must KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

Just my two hongky dollars.

ACMS comments about dead U.S. helicopter pilots in Iraq
 

Several pages back, ACMS made some seriously nasty comments about dead U.S. chopper pilots in Iraq. You didn't manage to answer that post I made commenting about that I made earlier. Political beliefs aside, you are laughing at people who are dead and gone, with families left behind to grieve.
has the air in Hong Kong finally rotted your brain and deprived you of any honor or sensibilities whatsoever, or are you just a provacateur who enjoys stirring up people here?
Your comments were serious, and if you ever would say that in my presence, there would be a problem. Lucky you can stay anonymous and stir things up. I'll bet you are STC. Go to hell. Go to hell Cathay. This is my last post. Tools like ACMS are not worth my time. I don't care if I get kicked out. You are a s.o.b.

Administrator..... please cancel my access permanently.

He probably did his flight training in the U.S. too. ACMS that is.

Well, I have sat here for the last hour or so and read through the ranting on this thread. Clearly there are some unhappy people out there and some (if not many) are about to do something about it.
Good luck to them, I really do wish them well. I hope the grass is as green as it appears from this side of the fence.
It would appear that much of the dissatisfaction rests at the door of the C&T department.
No names, clearly, but would you guys mind identifying the fleet or fleets in question because I'm afaraid I just don't see it on the Airbus or B777. Maybe I'm looking through rose tinted spectacles.
ACMS has taken a bit of a bashing for what he has written. Give the guy a break, he is a lone voice floating in a sea of villification trying to defend what he loves.
We all accept that things need to improve with respect to CoS, but honestly some of this gnashing of teeth will get us nowhere.
Now... you gentlemen/ladies who post from other companies having once worked for CX. I read your posts with interest, however none of you explain why you truly left CX. The venomous thins you say are of no help to anyone. Please, if you have something contsructive to add to the forum then do so, otherwise act with grace and honour and keep you private gripes to yourselves.

If you really need to ask people why they left then you have got your rose coloured specs on. The reasons for leaving are too numerous to list and are really quite obvious if you scroll through this thread again. If you like I'll shortlist a few.

****** Trainers
****** management
****** Captains
Crap staff travel
Crap medical
Crap leave system
Crap request system
Crap rosters
Crap hotels
Polluted air
Poisonous working environment
endless BS to get in the LHS
four different pay scales
rife nepotism
poor treatment of S/O's
having to deal with those mutants in Crew Control

(out of breath, but that will be good for a start)

Let me guess you're an A scaler right? And only spent 3 years in the right seat before you had a few sectors of beers with one of your ex-airforce buddies and then just tootled on your way to "commander":yuk: .

Times have changed mate.....Let me tell you it ain't no party any more!

I too have sat here reading the rants, most of them I will not comment on.

regretCX, you have compiled a lengthy list of reasons CX is not the perfect airline and I can't argue with you with that. Do I hope things will change...absolutely! Do I think things will change...only maybe.

If you asked me a week ago what I thought, I would have told you that CX is screwed and in 12-24 months they will be parking many aircraft. Now I'm not so sure. I think the lucky b*stards might be landing on their feet again.

Yesterday the markets had a major correction. Many believe today is the calm before a bigger storm. Also, the US overstated its growth in 2006 by 1/3rd. That is huge! If we are on the doorstep of a major recession then the massive growth CX planned and can't cope with can be cancelled. They will dodge another bullet.

Those leaving CX are leaving many problems but also a secure job. They can have a great job with United but will they get furloughed next year or the year after? Who knows but that is one of the very few advantages with CX.

Just my two cents worth!:)

Cathay Pacific a secure job?? Don't tell that to the 49ers!!

Let me log off and have a laugh..

Read my lips...............( i know you can't :) )

"I have never flown with P D", but from what others say it would have been a great trip, my loss.

Maybe it's time I stopped reacting to the crap you guys put forward. As soon as I defend myself you sling more crap:* A lose lose situation for me.