I have to admit, my experience is 'hit-or-miss'. Some flights they've (cabin crews) been awesome, other flights, we could've been dead on the flightdeck and nobody would've known...

I've had similar experiences like 400 Jockey, where I've been 'assumed' of trying to chat up one of the girls when all along I'm just 'stretching my legs'. I've wanted to say "Please, don't flatter yourselves" but apparently that's not taken well....but asking me if I am looking to chat a girl and that all we want to do is try and get into their pants, is ?

I keep things on a professional level and am always polite because there's absolutely no excuse to be rude, ever. If they want to carry on like peasants, that's their prerogative :hmm:

To Gipilot:

If you learn a bit of Cantonese and have the ability to do a bit of slapstick (watch the Chinese movie channels for hints) you will be an absolute hit with the (local) girls and will become famous as one of only a select few gweilos who make the effort to relate to the crew on their level - and you will definitely get a few dates out of it. Many of them are shy so its up to you. And don't let the ISM see.:ok:

What a sad f@#king bunch. Really!!

Fac6,

We've all had episodes where the other side have been let down by a few of their 'bad apples.' We all need to generate our own little libraries of sharp 'one-liners' to respond to our subordinate crew members who fail to act in the spirit of CRM. I would not hesitate in putting an ISM in her place if the situation warranted. It's all about Command!

The point I was trying to make is that we should not generalize, particularly when some of our colleagues fail to act like gentlemen. I know that may be difficult for some but I still believe that most of us were brought up properly and that we shouldn't let our standards slip.

If you are making an effort... good on you. Keep plugging away. Only if we demonstrate that new generation of Captain really is different and really is making an effort, then things will slowly change. It won't happen overnight (or even on an overnight - giPilot) but its a start.

I reiterate...
We are the leaders, we are the commanders, we set the example.

I agree with all the above.

About 13 years ago I arrived into AKL on 107 and asked the ISM if the crew wanted to meet for lunch? Her reply was "don't bother my crew, they are tired and wont go out"
About 30 mins later the ISM and about 6 crew passed me in the Lobby on the way out for lunch.........................

I've never forgotten that.

However I have had some REALLY good trips to CMB and BAH with our girls lately. Just when you give up being nice they do something you'd never expect.

The key to getting good service on the flight and on the overnight ( he he ) rests with the ISM and how you get along with her.

Max,

Agree with a lot of what you said however..

A330/B777 Crews take rest here when there is a spare First Class seat. Part of CX Pilots entitlements.

Again for A330/B777 crew, pilot award conditions allow us to eat our meals in First Class if another passenger is eating or not sleeping. Some Cabin Crew will try and argue this with you however it is written in their service manuals that Pilots are permitted to rest and eat in First Class.

When you show them this information in their manuals the look on their face is priceless...

As always we should all treat each other with respect. However some make it harder than others.

Hi!

Sounds like some of the pilots at Cathay would be much happier at Emirates.

cliff
KYIP
PS-My app is in at Cathay, because of the US basing-cargo only.

H. Dweller,

I totally agree with you on both your points. Indeed we are allowed to use First class on overnight flights if a seat is available. On one particular fleet, though, which has bunks and a CCL seat some guys are abusing the 330/777 privilege.

It's just that some of the guys have a strange way of trying to get something from the cabin crew.

A little story I was told recently from a very reliable CC source.

A -400 flight from Jo'burg....
The relief cmdr asked the ISM if he could sit and rest in first class. The response was yes; however, please don't eat since the Pax are sleeping. As soon as he took his seat he asked the SP for his meal, despite the wishes of the ISM. When the SP refused he jumped up, threw the headset on the seat and stormed back up stairs. Whilst doing so told the crew not to come to the flt deck for the rest of the flight... so they didn't.
His name is now very well known throughout ISD and he will probably get cr@p service for the rest of his time in CX.
I've retold the story verbatim, how much got embellished on the way I don't know. The point is; the incident happened, he didn't get reported, but it sours the pitch for everyone else.

It works both ways. The Asian airlines are very different from those back home, where ever that may be. We are the incomers and it is our responsibility to fit in and act accordingly; whilst never forgetting that we at the top of the crew list.

Banter is one thing, rudeness is intolerable. If you are a Captain, don't accept it from any one on your crew; neither pilot nor cabin crew. The rude ISMs are equally disliked by the junior crew. Just as the rude Captains are by the junior pilots. It is just unacceptable and if you see it happening, stamp on it with all the authority the 4 bars give you! Let them report you, just make sure you cover your 6 and tell your chief pilot before ISD do. It's very simple.

On the other hand, I see command trainees get the cabin crew eating out of their hand even before departure. So it's clearly not impossible. It called CRM... courtesy, respect and manners.

Lead, command, example etc etc.

fac6

Couldn't agree more old mate :)

Max, is your other half cabin crew by any chance? You seem to be very pro cabin crew despite the fact it's common knowledge they lack CRM.

Here's another story for you...

I'm sitting in First as an ID Pax, beside me is a Captains wife also ID traveling who asks very politely for some red wine. The cabin crew tells her "You have to wait until we open the bottle for a revenue passenger before we open it for you." I was completely ignored and when I asked for a coffee she sighed and walked off whilst bringing it some 15 minutes later (No there was no meal service at the time.) What did I do wrong then?

I think it better to not go into how the cabin crew treat cockpit as ID Pax

CX Cabin Crew
 

To those who have difficulty with the CX Cabin Crews, maybe you should take a long hard look at yourselves. In my time in HK I never once had a problem, treated them as I would want my own to be treated, and had a great time.

It might be worth thinking about that the people in the cabin they have to deal with range from absolute slobs to those with over-inflated opinions of themselves and many who are just downright rude. Because they are Asians does not make them any less an asset to CX than anyone at the sharp end.

Maybe things have changed a lot in CX, but my memories of being part of the outfit are all good ones. :ok:

Fac6
I agree with you. Every pilot I have flown with are courtious to the cabin crew and yet they are mostly unfriendly in return.

Max reheat
You go on about this 'new generation' of captains etc..what aload of rubbish. I have been in CX along time and I can tell you CX was alot more fun and relaxed with the cabin crew before the 'new generation' of captain came. You speak to the older ISMs and they ALL talk about the good old days in CX and complain about the new captains.

It has NOTHING to do about old and new captains. The cabin crew are now dicouraged to associate with the cockpit crew as in the past no one cared and was even encouraged by the ISMs. Because recruiting now is PC driven anyone that can barely speak two words of english is recruited. In the past recruitment was very selective and they only took those with excellent english and social skills....hence more girls from other nations and less locals. This leads to alot of the cabin crew shy to talk to you in your mother tongue. ...... therefore they would rather not and this is misunderstood as being unfriendly.

As for fluffing the pillow..get real

As for asking for your crew meal.....how long does it take to bring in to crappy. badly presented meals when the pilots are hungry...gee 2 minutes....get real

and yes..max reheat I do let my crew read newspapers in the cockpit...naughty me .. but then again I am an old generation captain.

Universal, easily understood rule is: Don't sh!t where you work. :ooh:

So much negative on CX cabin crews....

Anyway, my sister is a CX cabin crew, and she's pretty friendly (not in those kind of way!).. but if you talk to her, i am sure she'll talk back! :ok:

or in my case,, talks too much for me:E

I haven't always been a pilot and have worked in various industries. Some with people that make the MFL's of the world look like an angels (yes I am on the 400) In every job I've had I have had to deal with absolute aholes, some really good people and alot in between. You have a simple choice. Take the easy road, lock yourself in the cockpit and believe that the cabin crew are a bunch of subhuman pr..ks that must be tolerated at best. Take the high road, make an effort, tolerate the rude few and maybe, just maybe make a difference. Am I saying they are right and we are wrong, no. I've spent 6hours getting teas when I asked for coffees. I've had a rude reply when trying to make polite conversation waiting for the bus...the list goes on. But I've also had girls going out of their way to make a trip more comfortable when I'm PXing, gone out of their way to remember my name...you get the idea. It's too easy to take the low road guys, don't let the disgruntled few drag you down. Now off my high horse.

Quote:''saw the ISM walking across the lobby with 6 crew going for dinner''

One of our girls told me one of the reasons they are reluctant to go for dinner with the CC is the enormous 'drink' bill that is chalked up at dinner outport.'' I only ate a cheese + tomato sandwich and milk why should I...''

Some of them live a very frugal exsistent due to family/personal circumstances.

"The C asked the crew (shouted) to his birthday b/fast at outport. Once the pigs had eaten something was said in Cantonese, they all got up and left without a thankyou"

You can only try so hard

After that they are just A***holes

Plain and simple

Worked Christmas day a few years ago, and spent some time putting together some small gifts and my wife wrote some cards with every crew's name. I put the silly hat on and handed them all out individually wishing everyone a good holiday.

Now of course I didn't do any of this for recognition, but have a guess how many of them came up at some other point to say thanks? That's right, ZERO. In fact after our post flt duties, I walked out of the cockpit to find they were all gone, without even saying goodbye to us! Unbelievable.

I still try to take "the high road" as I won't let some ruin it for all. But it is disappointing to see how pathetic it is some times. Even 10 years ago things were MUCH, MUCH better, and we used to have some great trips back then.

The based CC are 95% fabulous! The HKG based Chinese CC are mostly (as referred to earlier) represent MongKok airlines and have little or no personality. The rest of the Asian CC based in HKG are mostly OK, friendly and helpful but only 10-20% of them would meet the levels of camaraderie shown by the overseas based crews.

So, the HKG CC are unhappy with based CC. I say jealousy is the reason and attaining a personality is the answer!:ok:

wowweee
 

you've got some serious issues...i think someone's bit the bone once or twice

cheers

cpdude,

Your comments are all fine; however, how would you feel if KJP and NR decided....

'To hell with the lot of them - we are recruiting direct to the base including DE capts on the pax fleet!'

I think you'd be amongst the first to squirm.....

The CC based in HJG are no different. Personality or not, they don't deserve this.

Max Reheat

You are correct...I would squirm as would others and we just may do that sooner than later with the hiring of KA and OA crews. Essentially Direct Entry Captains are coming and no Bypass Pay will be paid for those normally eligible when delayed for a Command.

But, there is a difference when it comes to the make-up of the CC system. Based CC CANNOT elect to move outside of their base area! Their seniority is held within the base area and so CX has again created a division among the crews. But this is not all CX's fault as the based CC are locally hired and must have the legal right of abode which eliminates most of the HKG CC from applying.

But my comments earlier were to identify the differences of the crews with regards to camaraderie which has more to do with upbringing then citizenship.;)

cpdude,

You miss the point.

HKG based crew are unhappy with the based crew system (and perhaps the individuals themselves) because for every ISM promoted on the bases, there is one less slot available in HKG. There is still only a finite number of flights to be crewed. For them, the right of abode overseas is beside the point.

I'm sure you are aware that our most senior SPs have been in the company for in excess of 22 years now, and there is still no immediate light on the horizon for them because of all these based crew being promoted outside of the established seniority system.

Again (and you are correct) it is another case of the company riding roughshod over the established contracts of it's most senior and loyal employees.

The day will come... but until then, all we can do is...

Lead, command and set the example.

2 cents

just to highlight a piece of chinese culture. Generally the chinese like to be able to respond with a gift when given something, even if it is a small gift from them. In western culture we are quite delighted to be given something unexpected, for many chinese there can actually be a small embarassment/loss of face that they haven't something to give you in return. This is not something that has developed in todays society/cabin-crew but has been part of the culture for centuries.

Think about when you go for a few beers with your friends, you always feel a awkward if one person is buying all the beers, in polite western society you always like to buy a beer in return.

J57 and others

generalizations might be good when talking about cattle, but when talking about individuals/people, remember there are many individuals amongst the cabin crew that make things great and some that make things bad. Specific examples of a-holes is better that whitewashing the community with the same moniker. And please do not suggest that cc are told that all flt crew are bad, just look at what you are saying about them here - it's the same right - you telling other pilots the cc are bad?

Hoping that the school teacher comes out to ring the bell soon so that playtime comes to an end!

Regards,

N1 Vibes

N1...

Unfortunately most of the CC DO share the same mentality, therefore I feel it fair to generalize here.

Only the minority have great CRM, professionalism, social skills etc.

pretty much the same as the pilots then

Simplex, ask yourself why?

400 Jock, fac6, Panza and Jack I agree with you all.

I find them all rude and moody and if you say anything non-standard to them they assume you're chatting them up.

Last year I was on a flight with a real nice Skipper, he invited all the girls out for dinner (he offered to pay.) It wasn't min rest, was a short flight and the restaurant was basically in front of the hotel so no excuses about needing sleep, too far etc. The ISM said thanks but no thanks they were off to bed etc.

I go to this place with the Captain then about 15 minutes who walks in with about 10 of the Cabin Crew? The ISM!

I know they have no obligation at all to eat with us etc. but that was rude.

All this boll*x about girls being lumbered with high bar bills etc is a load of sh*t too.

I have also been treated like **** many times on staff travel so now I just don't do it. Much prefer ID on other airlines. Yes it's more expensive but worth it for not being treated like rubbish. Maybe that's something you guys should consider

I say bring back the 'Asian - Other' cabin crew.
(i.e Korean, Japanese, Filipina, Sri Lankan, Thai, Indian, Malaysian and, dare I say, Singaporean girls).

In my experience:
The 'selfish gene' is very strong in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong girls reach an adult level of maturity at about 40.
These are two aspects that put the more diverse crew of say 15 years ago at a strong advantage - they acted grown up and had a sense of fun and a wider life experience that the canto-mall-girls than we seem to draw today.

I often wonder what would happen if we had a *real* in-flight emergency. I somehow imagine that we would find half the CC huddled together crying in the aft galley.


I understand that CX are starting the spread the net wider again, which is a good thing.
BTW the London based crews are a legend. It is apparent when you step on the aircraft that you are dealing with a different mindset.

(dont taze me because I am not a pilot, just was married to a Taiwanese CX cabin crew member)

My then wife never had a bad word to say about any of the FD crew she worked with. She did have tons to say about other cabin crew though. She went from trainee to Senior Purser in 7 years. She loved her job way too much. But I did get the feel from her that there is the CAbin Crew and then there is the Flight Deck crew. The Captain was always the person of authority and therefore not someone to go out with (it would be like an extension of work) . They would rather hang out with other cabin crew and seem to follow the lead of the Chief Purser, who is really "their" leader. Walking around in HK with her , if she spotted a Chief Purser she would always go up and talk with him/her. But never a pilot.

Oh and I used to fly often TPE/HK in First Class on a ten pct ticket. And I was warned by her that the cabin crew would know I am not a real First Class passenger so I must behave myself accordingly. And actually I guess maybe they knew my wife was an SP because I was always treated with smiles and always got fantastic service!!

p.s. we are talking late 80s here by the way.

I guess CX is a difficult place to work nowadays. But its always been my Fav Airline (along with SQ....sorry)

Busbert that's a disgraceful thing to say! I suggest you go to FSD and read the report on the HKG-FRA uncontained engine fire out of Kai Tak before casting aspersions on the cabin crews professionalism in an emergency..... :rolleyes:

Kitsune - valid point, but have you also read the report on the A340 wheel fire incident in the latest safety mag?

That and other incidents I have experienced first hand make me lean more towards Busbert's way of thinking. :eek:

HKG-FRA uncontained engine fire out of Kai Tak
 

That was 13 years ago, Cabin crew diversity was far greater, attitude more service orientated. The Canto influence far less prevalent. Keep in mind, "Gen Y" were not in the workforce at that time. Gen Y have a completely different set of rules and expectations, irrespective of cultural influence. That said, peanuts and monkeys might have something to do with the problem.

Surely Busbert gets paid more than peanuts......?? :}

Yeah they throw me the occasional fish head if I am really good. :ok:

Some moot points there. I know a couple of CX FS's who have left university for a year, work with CX, see the world for free, gain some experience and then go back to uni.

Another quick post before this finally gets 'put-to-bed.'

Way back on page 1 item 3 of this thread Fenwicksgirl stated that the crew relationship is good for marriages.
Well, Ms FG, I feel, from first hand experience, that the lack of interaction has precisely the opposite effect on marriages. Because our spoilt, pampered wives get too comfortable and forget that their primary role in life is to keep the family together and in the process lose sight of the fact that the best way to do this is to keep the 'old man' happy!!!
Sorry, but being on one side of a broken marriage for exactly this reason has tainted my view of Gweipos and I shall never change my mind since it cost me everything I had worked 20 years for.
The relationship between the cabin crew and pilots has taken a steep slide in the past decade for many reasons which have been eloquently outlined here by the folks willing to post sensible responses to the initial question.
It will only improve when the pilots take the initiative. It can be done... trust me.
Lead, command, set the example.

Not saying most pilots are thinking of such a thing but using cabin crew as a cheap date wouldnt be the thing to do.

A lot of the CX juniors are early twenties and not likely to be too interested in 45 plus year old FO or Captains in a romantic capacity? Not to mention that most likely these men are already married. Your younger First Officers though may get more interest from the ladies I would imagine? SPs who are older then the juniors most likely already have someone in their lives already.

Good CRM between flight deck and the cabin crew is obviously desired for a good flight and for safety reasons. I am sure some airlines have this worked out better then others for whatever reasons.

Not really surprising if the CAbin Crew feel that the Chief Pursor / ISM is more their boss as he/she calls the shots in their work space. Although their very lives depend on the flight deck crew. And they should remember this I think.

Things must have gone downhill since 1980 to 1990 when my lady was flying as a stewardess.

Many generalisations here, but alas, most are true about the HKG cabin crew. Some months ago I overheard some very junior crew make some very offensive comments about one of the FO's on the crew behind his back. I can understand Cantonese fairly well, although speaking it I find difficult. When I approached the persons involved, with the backing of the Malaysian ISM, they were genuinely shocked that I had understood and proceeded to apologise to the bewildered FO. Afterwards, they were giggling and laughing as if nothing had happened.

To me, this is just typical of the standard of the junior crew. Maybe CX has finally woken up to the fact, hence the move to increase recruiting from other than Hong Kong.

I go out of my way to try and foster good relations with any crew I fly with. Unfortunately, the cliquey bunch of immature newbies that have been hired over the last few years make that very difficult. No wonder CX service standards have fallen well behind our competitors over the last few years. They purely see it as a job that gives them cheap travel. They don't see it as a career.

In the late eighties and early nineties, Cathay Pacific was not just was proud of, but advertised the fact that its cabin crew came from (then) 'ten different Asian lands'. We were Asia's airline, not Mong Kok Airways as we are today.

Wow Wow Wow
 

Guys,

What can I say. I am totally flabbergasted. Actually my intention was just to get a few answers on what I thought were minor stuff. Little did I know I was opening a massive can of worms.

Well you can kind of know and feel that it IS a major issue in the mind of many pilots but it's like a topic many guys want to avoid up front(in the deck), I guess to avoid making remarks that might be offensive(thank God fo Pprune).

I am pretty much new in Cx so am just trying to find my way through the company. In general I still have a pretty positive view of the company, hopes it stays this way, except of course the cabin situation. In general it's allright but from what I see and have experienced these months it's a COMPLETELY odd atmosphere in which 2 teams collide massively.

I DID do all what the other guys suggested me to do like go and introduce myself , even help some of them with their heavy stuff be as pollite as I can during the flight, try to learn and speak some words be patient while they are working but....... I don't mean to be a pain but it just is different(not to call it FU#$ED UP). Not saying thank you for certain things or even not saying hello seems to be a common thing around these gals. Got a little pissed the other day when I met a bunch of the members of my flight in the elevator and they came in looked at me in the face and just didn't say nothing, I JUST FLEW WITH YOU GUYS FOR 12 HOURS you B@^&HES and introduced myself , I mean what is wrong with these people????? I am SURE that it ain't Chinese culture cause outside of Cx it's COMPLETELY different.

For the guys who have criticized me about my complaints ,well mates I don't recall talking about cabin crew that HAVE to be with the cockpit because of our wallets(N1 vibes) or that being a pilot HAS to impress them or that I wish to SHAG them all(they are by far not the hottest chicks), or EVEN me BEING an expert in SOCIO F%#$@*ING economics(ColdWAR). I'm just a simple pilot that tries to get a long with the whole CREW and am just amazed by the major efforts of the cabin to NOT to and to preferably keep the boys upfront as much away from them as possible.

All of this kind of hurts when you speak to guys or see other companies' crew members and the way most of them get along with each other. I kind of getting the feeling here is definitely the complete opposite of EU/US carriers in the cabin/cockpit aspect.

Ooh well I guess I kind of have to live with it I guess. There are more positive stuff about this job anyway, FOR ME, FOR ME(before some of you negative idiots criticize my positive view of CX). Just hope some of this changes ,of course it does not have to be a "EMIRATES"(The IBIZA of aviation) but hope at least some social aspects of the gals in the back improve.

Cheers

Yes it is a bit hit or miss with the crew. As I said before the way the crew get along with us is totally up to the ISM. Generally the crew take their lead from the ISM. If we are flying with a local ISM then basically forget any after hours fun with the crew.

"leave my crew alone, they are tooo tired" blah blah blah.

And don't give me the standard answer "they can't afford to buy drinks for us" .........because most guys will shout them.

p.s. the Japanese girls sure do like a beer :ok:

Still, maybe It's better for my marriage in the long run!! and wallet:)