Scmp - Ban Over ?
Scmp - Ban Over ?
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Not quite correct ronnie123....why not read it again:
Tuesday, April 22, 2003
Union seeks to end stalemate with Cathay
Pilots' leaders say they want to help the airline overcome the Sars crisis
JOSEPH LO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cathay Pacific pilots are likely to decide on Thursday to take the first step towards breaking a two-year stalemate between their union and the airline's management.
The Aircrew Officers' Association (AOA) is recommending that members support the cancellation of a call to pilots worldwide not to work for Cathay. The so-called recruitment ban was a cornerstone of the union's action in its battle with the airline over rostering and other issues.
The association said that in moving towards the lifting of the ban, it was demonstrating to Cathay a "real and genuine show of co-operation" in overcoming the Sars-fuelled collapse in air travel. The crisis prompted the airline to warn staff recently that all passenger operations were at risk of being shut down next month.
Union general secretary John Findlay said the pilots' demands for better rostering, pay and conditions had not changed but that the priority now was to assist the company in overcoming the "enormous problem of Sars".
A memo penned by the union's president, Nigel Demery, was sent to all members last week asking them to vote in support of lifting the ban, which was put in place nearly two years ago after more than 50 pilots were sacked. The dismissals followed a "sick-out" campaign that disrupted the airline's services for several weeks.
If the recruitment ban is lifted, the last vestiges of the industrial action that took place in the summer of 2001 will have been removed.
Ironically, the union's move for reconciliation comes just weeks after the United Nations' International Labour Organisation issued a statement expressing concern at the dismissal of the Cathay pilots and urging the Hong Kong government to end anti-union discrimination.
Union leaders also want their members to authorise the signing of a joint statement with management "signalling the intent of both parties to rebuild a constructive working relationship and to work together to achieve a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding differences that exist".
The memo stresses: "We have not lost sight of our prime objective, which is to obtain fair treatment for the 49ers [the sacked pilots], nor have we forgotten our secondary objectives of `rostering, remuneration and benefits'.
However, it continues: "No Cathay equals no AOA equals no 49ers".
Mr Findlay said the union would move towards further talks with Cathay management on its demands once the Sars crisis was over. "The first thing is to get over the epidemic," he said.
"This motion is a leap of faith. Management has been saying for some time that it wants to see a clear demonstration from the pilots before they will meet with us. We hope this is such a demonstration. Hopefully [it] will be reciprocated in time."
A Cathay spokeswoman said its position on further talks with the pilots' union would not change until the union showed it was genuinely working in the interests of the company.
"That means they have to abandon all their industrial actions, including the recruitment ban, the negative labelling of new recruits and work-to-rule," she said.
Tuesday, April 22, 2003
Union seeks to end stalemate with Cathay
Pilots' leaders say they want to help the airline overcome the Sars crisis
JOSEPH LO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cathay Pacific pilots are likely to decide on Thursday to take the first step towards breaking a two-year stalemate between their union and the airline's management.
The Aircrew Officers' Association (AOA) is recommending that members support the cancellation of a call to pilots worldwide not to work for Cathay. The so-called recruitment ban was a cornerstone of the union's action in its battle with the airline over rostering and other issues.
The association said that in moving towards the lifting of the ban, it was demonstrating to Cathay a "real and genuine show of co-operation" in overcoming the Sars-fuelled collapse in air travel. The crisis prompted the airline to warn staff recently that all passenger operations were at risk of being shut down next month.
Union general secretary John Findlay said the pilots' demands for better rostering, pay and conditions had not changed but that the priority now was to assist the company in overcoming the "enormous problem of Sars".
A memo penned by the union's president, Nigel Demery, was sent to all members last week asking them to vote in support of lifting the ban, which was put in place nearly two years ago after more than 50 pilots were sacked. The dismissals followed a "sick-out" campaign that disrupted the airline's services for several weeks.
If the recruitment ban is lifted, the last vestiges of the industrial action that took place in the summer of 2001 will have been removed.
Ironically, the union's move for reconciliation comes just weeks after the United Nations' International Labour Organisation issued a statement expressing concern at the dismissal of the Cathay pilots and urging the Hong Kong government to end anti-union discrimination.
Union leaders also want their members to authorise the signing of a joint statement with management "signalling the intent of both parties to rebuild a constructive working relationship and to work together to achieve a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding differences that exist".
The memo stresses: "We have not lost sight of our prime objective, which is to obtain fair treatment for the 49ers [the sacked pilots], nor have we forgotten our secondary objectives of `rostering, remuneration and benefits'.
However, it continues: "No Cathay equals no AOA equals no 49ers".
Mr Findlay said the union would move towards further talks with Cathay management on its demands once the Sars crisis was over. "The first thing is to get over the epidemic," he said.
"This motion is a leap of faith. Management has been saying for some time that it wants to see a clear demonstration from the pilots before they will meet with us. We hope this is such a demonstration. Hopefully [it] will be reciprocated in time."
A Cathay spokeswoman said its position on further talks with the pilots' union would not change until the union showed it was genuinely working in the interests of the company.
"That means they have to abandon all their industrial actions, including the recruitment ban, the negative labelling of new recruits and work-to-rule," she said.
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So, dropping the ban when the company is in a particularly bad position, has stopped all training and recruitment helps the company out. Can someone please explain how.
Perhaps I have been in this business too long and have become too cynical.
Perhaps I have been in this business too long and have become too cynical.
Well done guys!!!
So, you made a lot of good blokes turn down the chance to work for Cathay during the most serious downturn in Aviation any of us can remember. After all, they only had to wait and it would all be ok, right? Only now there won't be any recruitment for god knows how long.
Would ANY of you REALLY like to tell anyone who has accepted employment during the ban that they made a bad choice? Would any of you like to outline how you will assist pilots who are still out of work because they turned down Cathay in support of your highly (un)successful ban?
So, you made a lot of good blokes turn down the chance to work for Cathay during the most serious downturn in Aviation any of us can remember. After all, they only had to wait and it would all be ok, right? Only now there won't be any recruitment for god knows how long.
Would ANY of you REALLY like to tell anyone who has accepted employment during the ban that they made a bad choice? Would any of you like to outline how you will assist pilots who are still out of work because they turned down Cathay in support of your highly (un)successful ban?
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I look forward with some small degree of pleasure to observing your continued support about June-ish when we get our 25% pay cut. Or maybe a different scenario would have those 'scabs' (your word) freighter jocks not getting a cut as they will still be working like one armed paper hangers. And unpaid leave - will that have to be offered in reverse seniority order. The farce becomes even more farcical.
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Shorts
Don't be silly...remember "sharing the pain"? If the "mangers" try a stunt like that the AOA will pull out our contracts and "remind" the mangers about our "last in, first out" clause. You do know what a contract is, right?
If you've forgotten, call Murray G.
A very poor (even by your standards) attempt at stirring the pot. Have another cuppa old fella.
Don't be silly...remember "sharing the pain"? If the "mangers" try a stunt like that the AOA will pull out our contracts and "remind" the mangers about our "last in, first out" clause. You do know what a contract is, right?
If you've forgotten, call Murray G.
A very poor (even by your standards) attempt at stirring the pot. Have another cuppa old fella.
Last edited by Cpt. Underpants; 25th Apr 2003 at 05:32.
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Yes CU, I was there, listened to the first speech from himself that was a little bit credible. He actually did very well, talked to us like grown ups for a change. And, maybe a teensy bit, I was stirring the pot. But the fact remains that cargo is flat out at the moment and forecast to remain so for some time. They are keeping us afloat. Would it be reasonable to expect them to take a compulsory pay cut and no time off, whilst the remainder of us work less and/or get time off? The AOA will need to be very laterally minded for a while, whoops I jest, that is a contradiction in terms. I hope we continue for a few more years I have enjoyed your posts and the reaction they attract.
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Shorts:
You will recall that at the onset of the SARS crisis, the AOA released all it's members from the policy of "no work on GDO's" no Freighter Flying and other unhelpful practices. I applaud them (for once) having the nads to be pro-active. Now, as you are probably aware, the recruitment ban (thank God) is history.
So we have freighter and pax fleet crews flying the freighter (on the 744/74F fleets at least). The 777 and Bus Drivers are unable to extend their flexibility to that level (if you exclude the DHL stuff).
So, do you think that only the 777 and Bus Drivers should take a cut, or all pax drivers (remembering that pax drivers are flying the 74F's on a regular basis) should get one in the nuts?
I am sure that the AOA will recommend all the members to help to the max and "share the pain" rather than insist on the LIFO clause.
Do your arms ever get RSI ,are you a highly trained athlete or do you deserve one of these ?
You will recall that at the onset of the SARS crisis, the AOA released all it's members from the policy of "no work on GDO's" no Freighter Flying and other unhelpful practices. I applaud them (for once) having the nads to be pro-active. Now, as you are probably aware, the recruitment ban (thank God) is history.
So we have freighter and pax fleet crews flying the freighter (on the 744/74F fleets at least). The 777 and Bus Drivers are unable to extend their flexibility to that level (if you exclude the DHL stuff).
So, do you think that only the 777 and Bus Drivers should take a cut, or all pax drivers (remembering that pax drivers are flying the 74F's on a regular basis) should get one in the nuts?
I am sure that the AOA will recommend all the members to help to the max and "share the pain" rather than insist on the LIFO clause.
Do your arms ever get RSI ,are you a highly trained athlete or do you deserve one of these ?
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SHORTLY,
Your attitude towards the plight of the 49ers and those who support their families always leaves me perplexed!
Is it the guilt of abandoning your fellow pilots that bother's you so much, the fact that you quit when they needed your support the most or did you personally have a hand in their demise like I truly suspect.
Just a reminder to all what the Big Bad Union did to deserve the loss "for no particular reason" of 50+ of our fellow aviators.
To secure massive pay cuts ( some more than 25% ) in 99' the honorable company agreed to negotiations with regard to rostering practices, following 2 years of company stalling, the union embarked on a work to rule campaign.
This led to the demise of the 49ers and their families, and I for one have no problem supporting my union who in turn support these families,
HUSTLER
Your attitude towards the plight of the 49ers and those who support their families always leaves me perplexed!
Is it the guilt of abandoning your fellow pilots that bother's you so much, the fact that you quit when they needed your support the most or did you personally have a hand in their demise like I truly suspect.
Just a reminder to all what the Big Bad Union did to deserve the loss "for no particular reason" of 50+ of our fellow aviators.
To secure massive pay cuts ( some more than 25% ) in 99' the honorable company agreed to negotiations with regard to rostering practices, following 2 years of company stalling, the union embarked on a work to rule campaign.
This led to the demise of the 49ers and their families, and I for one have no problem supporting my union who in turn support these families,
HUSTLER
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Great riposte CU, loved the Bull**** Award. Tricky isn't it? I am also really glad to see the AOA be pro-active in this very difficult time. There are some very bright lads/lasses in the less powerful committees of the AOA, I am certain they would have some good ideas to help OUR company in this dreadful time. A young woman in the SCMP today is full of optimism for Hong Kongs future. She is infectious (with enthusiasm) and I hope she is right.
Hustler, I was going to ignore you but in a spirit of bonhomie I will only say "good on you my friend, you stuck to your guns.". Although the paraphrased digs probably didn't kid anyone.
Hustler, I was going to ignore you but in a spirit of bonhomie I will only say "good on you my friend, you stuck to your guns.". Although the paraphrased digs probably didn't kid anyone.
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The Ban
Looks as though I may have missed something here, so the Ban is officially over? No conditions or caveats? It is over and won't be reintroduced for the original reasons etc? Totally over, dead in the water, finished, kaput?
Would someone who knows be kind enough to make such a post in the Fragrant Harbour Wannabes forum please?
Many thanks,
BlueEagle - Moderator.
Would someone who knows be kind enough to make such a post in the Fragrant Harbour Wannabes forum please?
Many thanks,
BlueEagle - Moderator.
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This causes for an interesting senario. If the Ban has been lifted then all those that joined under the "ban" have been let free.
ALPA has no official list of names of the people that joined and the AOA has dropped all actions.
The fact of SARS is terrible, but I hope that through this they can sort out their problems and come away a stronger company.
ALPA has no official list of names of the people that joined and the AOA has dropped all actions.
The fact of SARS is terrible, but I hope that through this they can sort out their problems and come away a stronger company.
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The ban is over. Surely the way forward for the AOA now is to allow all those new joiners (from under the ban) to join and start some major bridge building exercises. I have no doubt that the new DFO is still open to sensible negotiation concerning the 49ers. The level of sensibility will be set by the AOA. Crumpets, we all agree that the main issue here is the survival of our airline. If we do survive then the prospects are tremendous for all. Back into China at the least is a grand prospect, even for the bean counters. Come on folks lets pull together for a change.
Hustler, the AOA lost me for lots of personal reasons which I would not divulge on an open forum. Doesn't mean I deserted anyone, you put a lot of cudos on dollars and cents but display little sense at the same time - as did the AOA leadership. The issues were never black and white, lots of grey there to be seen. Methinks you are colour blind. But good luck anyway.
Hustler, the AOA lost me for lots of personal reasons which I would not divulge on an open forum. Doesn't mean I deserted anyone, you put a lot of cudos on dollars and cents but display little sense at the same time - as did the AOA leadership. The issues were never black and white, lots of grey there to be seen. Methinks you are colour blind. But good luck anyway.
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The Ban Failed.
It would never work while the example of those who wanted it was contradictory and hypocritical. (Upgrades, cadets, no strike action)
Who would join the AOA now?
After the treatment and rhetoric dished out to the professionals who took the long term view to see through the ban for what it was, and what it wasn't.
Long live Cathay, and by the way.........wash your hands.
It would never work while the example of those who wanted it was contradictory and hypocritical. (Upgrades, cadets, no strike action)
Who would join the AOA now?
After the treatment and rhetoric dished out to the professionals who took the long term view to see through the ban for what it was, and what it wasn't.
Long live Cathay, and by the way.........wash your hands.
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i certainly won't be joining now KK. the company has ridden the AOA out and have come out on top. best thing to do now is form a company / employee union where both parties work together for the betterment of Cathay Pacific. it has worked with Qantas so it will work here.