legal action
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Pilotabroad,
You make a serious allegation against Nigel D, care to back it up. Who made the offers and when and what was contained in the offers?
edited to delete the surname.
You make a serious allegation against Nigel D, care to back it up. Who made the offers and when and what was contained in the offers?
edited to delete the surname.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 9th Oct 2002 at 10:36.
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I think this 'was there an offer' issue is very important. It strikes at the credibility of the AOA leadership team. I have tried through various means to get a copy of said 'offer' but up to now to no avail. I would not condescend to calling people false over this because what I think happened is this. A tentative offer was made at a meeting in NR's office with one or more of the AOA negotiating team present, the offer was verbal and hands were shaken on it. The alleged offer included the requirement for all 49ers to be interviewed to assess their company 'loyalty'. It only included improvements in conditions including all captains (pax) to go to A scale and a modest improvement to the freighter pay rates. This 'offer' never got out of the AOA headshed to the union proletariat. The spin doctors got to work and it became known as talks about talks. The main sticking point, I have been told, was the assessment requirement for the 49ers and whether they would be recompensed for time away from the workplace. Both very sensitive issues and I have no reason to comment on them. I will not name AOA names here as it would/could embarass them but my information came from those well in the know at the AOA. Now like it or not many folk think as I do that there was an offer made. The only way to clear this issue up is for someone in authority to come clean. Liam made the point earlier that there are too many proposals made to always relay them to the membership. Well that's as maybe, but on an issue this important the guys/gals should have been fully informed, assuming what I have been told to be correct. Get your false teeth into this lot Cpt panties.
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Talks About Talks
Copy of Vice President Professional’s post on CPrune, 11th March 2002:
These are my recollections and views…
"Talks about talks" comprised a series of meetings last year between ****, ****, ****, **** and me. The meetings were brokered behind the scenes by the work of several non-Committee
members. The purpose of the meetings was to establish whether or not there existed sufficient common ground to
enter a formal negotiation to resolve contract, rostering and 49er issues. A wide range of ideas were exchanged
and discussed during those meetings but they were just that – ideas. Offers are made during negotiations - “talks
about talks” was not a negotiation. It was about sharing where each side could go in the hope of getting a mandate
to enter formal negotiations.
Where the Company felt they could go with contract (pay structures, retirement age, timeframe, freighters, Clause
35, sickness management etc) was more than encouraging. To the credit of the Company the plan looked good.
My feeling was that a negotiation on contract alone would have produced a resolution acceptable to the majority of
our membership and equally importantly, would serve our airline well in the years ahead.
Rostering was, and always has been, a more tricky area. My feeling was that in the context of a package deal, we
had room to make sufficient concessions with rostering such that a negotiation would have produced a resolution
acceptable to the majority of the membership.
That left the very complex 49er issue. Clearly it was always going to be fundamental to both sides. Unfortunately
we were unable to come up with a mutually acceptable way to deal with it. The Company suggested hypothetically
that all the 49ers could apply to CX and those deemed acceptable may be offered a job. There was no indication
sought and no indication given as to “numbers”. The COS/seniority issue was no obstacle for either side. We were
dissatisfied because such a process lacks the transparency required to ensure fairness. We explored a range of
hypothetical alternatives such as full reinstatement or both sides reviewing the files or independent assessment or
arbitration, confidentiality agreements, media bans, “face savers” and others but unfortunately the Company
representatives did not have the mandate to agree to any of them.
The Company subsequently put out a newsletter describing “talks about talks” and that newsletter was factual with
respect to contract and rostering. Concerning the 49ers, the newsletter stated that the Association representatives
insisted on total reinstatement even for pilots now employed elsewhere. That was disappointing because it was not
a true statement and not consistent with the openness and honesty which otherwise characterised the talks.
I said during the talks and have said consistently at various Focus Nights since; it is not the remit of any union to
prevent members from being held accountable for wrongful acts. The remit of any union should be to seek fair
treatment for members through a fair process. Ultimately for the 49er issue to be considered properly resolved it
will be irrespective of “numbers”. Rather, someone in our Association will one day have to be in a position to
undertake to the membership that the process (whatever that may be) was proper and that each of the 49ers was
treated fairly. In my view, to do otherwise would be to call into question the very reason for having a union and just
as disturbingly, would call into question whether this great airline is still a career airline.
I suggest we get more unified, be patient and work hard for resolution together.
*** ******
shortly, this was written by one of the GC members that was there. I think "someone in authority" has come clean, months ago. Is this enough for you?
Now stop calling the members of the GC and the AOA President liars!
These are my recollections and views…
"Talks about talks" comprised a series of meetings last year between ****, ****, ****, **** and me. The meetings were brokered behind the scenes by the work of several non-Committee
members. The purpose of the meetings was to establish whether or not there existed sufficient common ground to
enter a formal negotiation to resolve contract, rostering and 49er issues. A wide range of ideas were exchanged
and discussed during those meetings but they were just that – ideas. Offers are made during negotiations - “talks
about talks” was not a negotiation. It was about sharing where each side could go in the hope of getting a mandate
to enter formal negotiations.
Where the Company felt they could go with contract (pay structures, retirement age, timeframe, freighters, Clause
35, sickness management etc) was more than encouraging. To the credit of the Company the plan looked good.
My feeling was that a negotiation on contract alone would have produced a resolution acceptable to the majority of
our membership and equally importantly, would serve our airline well in the years ahead.
Rostering was, and always has been, a more tricky area. My feeling was that in the context of a package deal, we
had room to make sufficient concessions with rostering such that a negotiation would have produced a resolution
acceptable to the majority of the membership.
That left the very complex 49er issue. Clearly it was always going to be fundamental to both sides. Unfortunately
we were unable to come up with a mutually acceptable way to deal with it. The Company suggested hypothetically
that all the 49ers could apply to CX and those deemed acceptable may be offered a job. There was no indication
sought and no indication given as to “numbers”. The COS/seniority issue was no obstacle for either side. We were
dissatisfied because such a process lacks the transparency required to ensure fairness. We explored a range of
hypothetical alternatives such as full reinstatement or both sides reviewing the files or independent assessment or
arbitration, confidentiality agreements, media bans, “face savers” and others but unfortunately the Company
representatives did not have the mandate to agree to any of them.
The Company subsequently put out a newsletter describing “talks about talks” and that newsletter was factual with
respect to contract and rostering. Concerning the 49ers, the newsletter stated that the Association representatives
insisted on total reinstatement even for pilots now employed elsewhere. That was disappointing because it was not
a true statement and not consistent with the openness and honesty which otherwise characterised the talks.
I said during the talks and have said consistently at various Focus Nights since; it is not the remit of any union to
prevent members from being held accountable for wrongful acts. The remit of any union should be to seek fair
treatment for members through a fair process. Ultimately for the 49er issue to be considered properly resolved it
will be irrespective of “numbers”. Rather, someone in our Association will one day have to be in a position to
undertake to the membership that the process (whatever that may be) was proper and that each of the 49ers was
treated fairly. In my view, to do otherwise would be to call into question the very reason for having a union and just
as disturbingly, would call into question whether this great airline is still a career airline.
I suggest we get more unified, be patient and work hard for resolution together.
*** ******
shortly, this was written by one of the GC members that was there. I think "someone in authority" has come clean, months ago. Is this enough for you?
Now stop calling the members of the GC and the AOA President liars!
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Liam, thank you for your well written post. I have never called anyone a liar - fibber. I have no doubt the 'recollections' of the VP are exactly as he has outlined them. Funny thing memory though isn't it, we always remember the good bits as time fades and the mind slowly but surely extricates the 'bad' bits. Take pain as an example, the mind inevitably will not recall pain as such so people often make the same decisions leading to the same pain time after time. I will make one last try on the third floor today, as I will be at Kitty City, to try and get the other side of the story. failing that you have my word that I will never raise this issue again. I doubt the motives of a number of the players in this saga and indeed the veracity of others. You don't need to tell a blatant porky pie, just leave a bit out and the result is the same. What have the wise ones said about porkies, for a lie to believable it must contain an element of truth and a big lie is often more believable and easier to maintain than a little one. Not that I am saying anyone is lying lol. Regards to you.
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err.... shortly, I think you need to thank sixfoot...
As a general comment to all; be very careful when using the phrase "offer". In my book, "offer" means a proposal that if accepted is a done deal. By way of example, to say, " would the AOA stop all Industrial Action for A scales", is not an offer. Given the litigation hovering over this dispute an offer from either side will be unambiguous, detailed and almost certainly written. Any thing else is a fishing expedition.
Like I say, there is much more to this issue.
As a general comment to all; be very careful when using the phrase "offer". In my book, "offer" means a proposal that if accepted is a done deal. By way of example, to say, " would the AOA stop all Industrial Action for A scales", is not an offer. Given the litigation hovering over this dispute an offer from either side will be unambiguous, detailed and almost certainly written. Any thing else is a fishing expedition.
Like I say, there is much more to this issue.
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6FU, you impress as a real tough guy with you language whilst hiding behind your computer terminal under the cloak of anonimity. Shame you cannot impress with your ability to construct a sensible arguement without resorting to labelling for the sole reason that others do not agree with your point of view or interpretation. Such would indicate you are not so convinced of your own arguement or you are not suitably developed enough to maintain control of your own emotions....not exactly a desirable trait for an airline pilot and as such I shall keep a look out for you.....you can operate the radio.
For the record, pilotabroad's recollection of events is exactly how it was portrayed to me by a member of the AOA of high standing.
Captain underpants, you are wrong. Furthermore you are attempting to pass false information in the effort to further your cause for which I hold you in contempt.
Think outside the box son.
For the record, pilotabroad's recollection of events is exactly how it was portrayed to me by a member of the AOA of high standing.
Captain underpants, you are wrong. Furthermore you are attempting to pass false information in the effort to further your cause for which I hold you in contempt.
Think outside the box son.
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Wall, if what you say is correct, but what I say is correct, then someone has to be wrong.
Prove me wrong by publishing the text of the offer. What could be easier? Personally, I think the "offer" is vaporware.
And BTW, stop trying to ping me. I've got your number, ace.
Prove me wrong by publishing the text of the offer. What could be easier? Personally, I think the "offer" is vaporware.
And BTW, stop trying to ping me. I've got your number, ace.
Last edited by Cpt. Underpants; 10th Oct 2002 at 07:25.
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The sensible arguments were heard on this site a long time ago. In fact this current topic is over a year old, why is that? Because sycophants like you and shortly continue to dig it up. These "talks about talks" are ancient history, the only reason it keeps coming up is because managers use it to keep the ill-informed non union employees dazed and confused about the real issues of this dispute.
"I'ts the contract, stupid"
"I'ts the contract, stupid"
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Offer-No Offer
Does it really matter if there was an offer?
What did Nick R offer us anyway? It could have been everything that we wanted and then some. What he didn't offer was a solution for all the 49ers. He said he would take some back, but I bet the Union guys would not be on that list.
Take a look at the Membership. Would they accept something that would not have every 49er (that wants to come back) back? All the guys that would have sold the 49ers down the drain are not in the Union and therefore have no vote. If they want to sell the 49ers down the road, they should have stayed in the Union.
The present Membership would not accept that offer even if there were an offer. So what is the big deal.
If there was an offer, the GC knew the Membership would not accept a deal without the 49ers, so why vote on it.
Was there a formal proposal put forward by the company that the Membership could vote on? All that was said was Nick R saying he would probably give A-Scales Commands. It was said in passing.
Through all the talks with the AOA, Nick R never had the authority to negotiate anything. Everything he said was put out as feelers to see what the AOA would do. David T was calling all the shots.
Offer-No Offer, who really cares. If it does not address the 49ers issue it will not be accepted.
I believe that are just a few people on Pprune who would sell out the 49ers for any kind of deal. They are scared.
You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3.
- Paul F Crickmore
What did Nick R offer us anyway? It could have been everything that we wanted and then some. What he didn't offer was a solution for all the 49ers. He said he would take some back, but I bet the Union guys would not be on that list.
Take a look at the Membership. Would they accept something that would not have every 49er (that wants to come back) back? All the guys that would have sold the 49ers down the drain are not in the Union and therefore have no vote. If they want to sell the 49ers down the road, they should have stayed in the Union.
The present Membership would not accept that offer even if there were an offer. So what is the big deal.
If there was an offer, the GC knew the Membership would not accept a deal without the 49ers, so why vote on it.
Was there a formal proposal put forward by the company that the Membership could vote on? All that was said was Nick R saying he would probably give A-Scales Commands. It was said in passing.
Through all the talks with the AOA, Nick R never had the authority to negotiate anything. Everything he said was put out as feelers to see what the AOA would do. David T was calling all the shots.
Offer-No Offer, who really cares. If it does not address the 49ers issue it will not be accepted.
I believe that are just a few people on Pprune who would sell out the 49ers for any kind of deal. They are scared.
You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3.
- Paul F Crickmore
Last edited by BlueEagle; 10th Oct 2002 at 11:14.
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Fire wall,
I thought "talks about talks, offer/no offer" was all company fuelled rumours and hearsay to further denegrate unity within the AOA. However, if a mate of high standing within the AOA told you otherwise, then no argument can compete against evidence of such strength.
A mate of high standing in the AOA also saw Elvis catching the bus to DB; send me $1,000 and I can get you front row seats to his next concert.
Not sure which box you're thinking out of....
I thought "talks about talks, offer/no offer" was all company fuelled rumours and hearsay to further denegrate unity within the AOA. However, if a mate of high standing within the AOA told you otherwise, then no argument can compete against evidence of such strength.
A mate of high standing in the AOA also saw Elvis catching the bus to DB; send me $1,000 and I can get you front row seats to his next concert.
Not sure which box you're thinking out of....
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just like a focus night .......no one is entitled to an opinion unless it is in agreement with the AOA line. Unfortunatley the AOA line got us B scales, ASL, 51ers etc.
Capt Underpants, I do not understand the term ping but hazard a guess that you feel that somehow I may be interogating you computer. I am afraid that I am of the vintage where it is not possible for me to be computer literate and, if such a thing were possible from my home PC then I have neither the inclination nor the time so rest easy.
My number, really what does that mean?
Ace - Mmmmm - wrong there.
Liam, any chance of some spare tickets?
Capt Underpants, I do not understand the term ping but hazard a guess that you feel that somehow I may be interogating you computer. I am afraid that I am of the vintage where it is not possible for me to be computer literate and, if such a thing were possible from my home PC then I have neither the inclination nor the time so rest easy.
My number, really what does that mean?
Ace - Mmmmm - wrong there.
Liam, any chance of some spare tickets?
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Hey Liam, knowing you never speak with 'forked tongue', I'll take a couple of those tickets too please. I believe Harold Holt is to be the compere and Marilyn is making a cameo appearance.
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Shortly,
No problem, just go up and see NR and leave $2,000 with him and the tickets will be winging their way to you in no time.
Understand Nick is also doing a deal on Tampons. He is shifting them for about a tenth of the price of Park 'n Rob, so if your good lady is in need, ask him about this great deal whilst you are up there. Word of warning however, typical NR deal, "no strings attached!".
No problem, just go up and see NR and leave $2,000 with him and the tickets will be winging their way to you in no time.
Understand Nick is also doing a deal on Tampons. He is shifting them for about a tenth of the price of Park 'n Rob, so if your good lady is in need, ask him about this great deal whilst you are up there. Word of warning however, typical NR deal, "no strings attached!".
Liam
Thought the issues were 49'ers, rostering, COS....and how to stop shagged underpaid F/O's from pulling the flaps up before the she who must be obeyed is ready for it.
How did we get on to the subject of rip-chords on tampons....are you a vampire??
Let's hope the War Office is a luddite.
Respectfully yours...not too far from ...out of here.
...but while I am at the keyboard...I haven't seen a report from ND on his last meeting with senior management...have you?
Thought the issues were 49'ers, rostering, COS....and how to stop shagged underpaid F/O's from pulling the flaps up before the she who must be obeyed is ready for it.
How did we get on to the subject of rip-chords on tampons....are you a vampire??
Let's hope the War Office is a luddite.
Respectfully yours...not too far from ...out of here.
...but while I am at the keyboard...I haven't seen a report from ND on his last meeting with senior management...have you?
Last edited by VR-HFX; 15th Oct 2002 at 10:16.
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Actually I thought, quite mistakenly again, that this thread was allowing a bit of light hearted banter for a pleasant change. Pity Liam had to go and start slagging individuals. I wonder how many the company really wanted to get rid of before they were talked down to 49 by NR? I have heard various figures ranging from 150 to 300. Wouldn't it be sad if NR turned out not to be the bogey man after all.
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Shortly,
You need another chill pill; it was a joke mate! Sorry, you didn't find it funny. At least Nick laughed when I told it to him (he did write down my name whilst he was laughing/s******ing)
Hardly qualifies as "slagging". Besides you know my views on NR's involvement to date.
I somehow think you are not that offended.
Just read my post; the censor is even more sensitive than Shortly. It didn't like the middle bit of a word because it has the same character string as an offensive name for an African-American.
Still, the BBC/ITV have edited the same word out the Dambusters. Its seems everyone's culture is protected, except for us WASPDM's. We just get to pay for everything and defend everything.
Time for my medication....
You need another chill pill; it was a joke mate! Sorry, you didn't find it funny. At least Nick laughed when I told it to him (he did write down my name whilst he was laughing/s******ing)
Hardly qualifies as "slagging". Besides you know my views on NR's involvement to date.
I somehow think you are not that offended.
Just read my post; the censor is even more sensitive than Shortly. It didn't like the middle bit of a word because it has the same character string as an offensive name for an African-American.
Still, the BBC/ITV have edited the same word out the Dambusters. Its seems everyone's culture is protected, except for us WASPDM's. We just get to pay for everything and defend everything.
Time for my medication....
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The actual number of pilots sacked was 50 not 49. The number 49 comes from the guys that were sacked on the 9th of July, there was one more fired on the 11th for some strange reason.
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No problem Liam, we wasps have been getting a rough time of late. But the circle of life will bring us back for another 15 minutes of fame in due course. As you know, I rarely mention CX middle management by name and have not been one to defend them overly much. I was sort of hoping someone would pick up on the Harold Holt bit, nobody did, showing my age ah well; another blood pressure pill, a couple of viagra and a belt of something that burns will cure all my ills, for a while at least. Bet I get hammered now lmao.