Some food for thought...

[Full_Burner]

Handy Andy

Beautifully said.

I think you can safely go to Cebu. Thrust and his cohorts are slipping well into the minority and without any power the rhetoric is about all they have left.

He is probably not a Captain; I would like to think by the time a Command has come around a more mature attitude would have surfaced.

The issue of the 49er's is dead and buried. Sad but true and it is about time the Thrusts accepted the fact.

FB

[aussie1]

Somebody please tell me that this kind of behaviour really does not occur !!!!

[cadence]

It does occur and I am getting sick of it. I am out of here on the first job that comes up. My family doesn't travel on CX jets, Thrust isn't alone, there's lots of pissed-off guys here.

[aussie1]

it is unbelievable that such intelligent people cannot see what all of this is going to result to. If they are so against company policy why join up in the first place. I am not trying to say that CX's behaviour isnt dispickable, but logic would dictate that if we all stick together as one, more will be accomplished and quickly

cadence
come on over to the US, plenty of jobs here

[Thrust]

Just stirring the pot.

I guess the CX pilots union and the 100,000+ ALPA pilots that condem the union bust going on in CX are wrong.

CX flightdecks are as professional as any in world aviation. I've sat next to a few replacement workers and quite frankly it is a distraction.

I wouldn't pee on one if he was on fire and I expect that he wouldn't do the same for me. He showed his contempt for his "fellow" CX pilots by taking a job to replace wrongfully dismissed crew. A union bust is a union bust.

I haven't met a replacement worker yet that didn't leave a job to come to CX. He made his choice with the complete knowledge of what he was doing. As far as I'm concerned they can all rot in hell.

Those of you that talk about this issue from the outside just don't understand what is going on. For just one minute stop and think about how your family would feel if it was you that was sacked. What support would you want from your mates? Those that come to CX now are pretty low in my book. Many excellent pilots are waiting in the wings to take slots when this is sorted out.

The first of our courtcases in both HK and overseas are about to be presented. Pressure is about to mount and it will start to look bad for the company. Hopefully this will be the precursor to talks with management. CX have expressed a desire to return to the mainland and our current load factors are in the 80+% range. Time to expand and it won't happen without the pilots on side.

Please just wait you wannabe's.

Now, about those vortex generators..

[aussie1]

Thrust

That was much better. Mate we all well understand the position that CX has put many people, and ofcourse yes, it is only human to feel angry and frustrated//// been there done that!!!
My point to you guys is that within your anger you are not seeing that CX is winning because all of you guys at heads with eachother. Pilot v pilot.

Well I guess CX is getting exactly what they want

[411A]

EK is hiring I believe....but some of the CX guys would have a very hard time fitting in with their attitude, and of course would have to start at the low end of the pay scale.
Still, leaves more room for those that want to join at CX.
CX management would seem to be pleased if they left...before they are sacked, that is....

[shortly]

The numbers don't support the intent of sad old Thrusts comments. There certainly is the issue of the 49ers to resolve, although CX management probably think it is just about settled already. If Thrust were to follow through on his childish threats, well he would be identified easily and early for the non-professional that that would make him. The result for him is obvious. The majority of CX aircrew are not unhappy (do some number crunching before you slag off at this). Sure there are issues to be resolved and they will be in due course. The new joiners need not fear anything. As I have stated before, in my opinion it is only a matter of time before they are welcomed into the fold of the AOA or else the AOA fails. The million dollar question is how do we get back to the negotiating table? The company have stated that they will not negotiate with the current leadership or while union action continues. I don't agree with that position but it's their bat and ball. It was loyal of the AOA, and probably myopic, to re-elect ND and co. But the facts show that AOA numbers are falling steadily and the costs for the AOA must be remaining high. They must surely have most to gain by making whatever concessions (more) are necessary to get back to discussion. I don't mean toss away the 49ers but surely there is absolutely no hope for them in light of the current situation.

[aussie1]

It is time for some leadership changes or nothing is going to change. Hell take a look at delta - alpa here in the us... being sued by there own members. what does that tell you guys about the way in which the AOA and these unions handle situation

I am all FOR a union, but this is getting ridiculous

[HandyAndy]

Mr. Thrust

It is a shame you have been unable to allay my fears about traveling with CX. I am also unsure of whether you mean I or you are stirring the pot. It matters not.

As a matter of fact, I believe that the whole episode surrounding the termination of employment of your colleagues was very sad. I empathise with the people who lost their jobs, I really do – I am certain they are excellent airmen and were possibly scapegoats. Which “side” is right and which is wrong is not my business to comment on but where I trust my life and that of my family is my business. This is not meant to portray melodrama as you may see coming out of EastEnders, trust me. I am being 100% true to myself by communicating with you guys.

Please believe me, I thought very seriously about posting on this forum. I have been tempted in the past as this issue has been at the back of my mind when flying but after reading your thoughts today, I became very alarmed.

Last week, I spent 36 hours on a return trip to JFK – Monday out of HKG and Wednesday night back from JFK. Admittedly, 8 or so of those hours were with a YVR-based crew and I am not sure of their situation however the potential for some situation to develop for the balance of over 24 hours in the air is real. Maybe we had a settled and calm FD on those two sectors or maybe we were just fortunate, I don’t know. However please see it from the other side of the door too.

To an extent, you are right that those of us on the outside do not understand what is going on, but impressions are formed by what is read in the media etc. or indeed more accurately on this site. Yes, I hear you say, the forum should be for pilots only, but that doesn’t solve the problem. Sometimes it takes a person removed from the core of a situation to put over a perspective that hadn’t been previously seen. Have you ever considered during your AOA meetings/get-togethers how your actions (official or not) would affect the pax and crew behind the FD door. Probably not.

It is not possible to compare grievances between colleagues within an office environment to that of a flight deck. There is just too much at stake where you guys work.

I always thought that the reason for introducing the much-mentioned CRM to the flight deck was to compound and highlight the necessities of teamwork. That clearly is failing in its basic form when you are on duty with one of the “replacement workers”. How would an emergency or situation be handled between you if you are potentially not communicating or going in different directions so to speak. You admit yourself [the replacement workers] are a distraction.

I am certainly not stirring any pot – just voicing concerns that I now have about flying with Cathay Pacific. Up until today, I have not had any negative gut instincts about trusting the FD crew but today I have. I am very upset about it.

I have not seen many, if any, posts on this forum from your customer’s point of view – maybe because the threat to their safety has not occurred to them, or maybe they have held back as I have done until now. You may well be thinking “why does this guy not s$d off our forum”, however if you are so thinking, it should confirm to you that maybe I have a point but from an entirely different perspective than that of you and some of your colleagues.

An incident on one of your flights which was put down to friction between pilots on the FD would decimate your cause and probably your Company. From my point of view and bearing in mind what I perceive to be the current feelings in the cockpit, there is an accident waiting to happen.

Although it looks a long way off, I truly hope you can all sort it out before, but in the meantime, I have to decide what is safe for me and my family.

Best wishes to you all
HA

[mole]

Dear HA

I had vowed never to post on this bulletin board again but your comments have raised questions and I would appreciate an explanation from you.

First may I state I have little empathy with the more extreme characters who post on this forum from either side of the dispute. You should note that the views of Shorty are just as extreme as those who rant and rave from the opposite end of the spectrum.

My curiosity has been raised because your postings are rather surreal. You seem to be suggesting that you may be developing a fear of flying with CX because of poor labour relations between cockpit crew and management. Whilst it is evident that most pilots are far from happy with the current direction being taken by management it is far from evident how this could impact on safety. The pilots of Cathay Pacific are among the most capable and professional in the world and this does not change because an industrial dispute is in progress.

It is curious that you mention the pilots on your YVR JFK sectors were Vancouver based and those on the other two sectors were not. How can you possibly know where any CX crew are based unless you know them personally? Are you sure you are not one of those posters who live at the end of the spectrum? Perhaps this is your attempt to use the "safety" weapon which the AOA is accused of keeping in their armoury of industrial weapons.

I cannot believe that an intelligent member of the travelling public would bother to write such drivel on a pilots bulletin board. Much less can I believe that you fear flying with such an outstanding airline.

You are not a believable character in my view sir.

[christep]

Mole,

I think HA's point is that he is concerned not by the friction between cockpit crew and management, but by the fact that Thrust's initial post implied (or indeed, threatened) that other pilots of differing opinions "would not enjoy sitting next to me at this time regardless of you limited knowledge".

I am in the same position as HA - a frequent customer (MP Diamond) of CX - and I have to say I share his concern. Up to now I had hoped that whatever the differences of opinions between the cockpit crew they would not let them impinge on their professionalism while in the cockpit. It seems clear from Thrust's post that some at least are unable or unwilling to do this. As a passenger I am worried that this may have some impact on the safety of my flight. As HA says, if even a minor incident is reported by the press as having been caused or exacerbated by poor relations in the cockpit then CX's business is going to take a big dive, to the detriment of all of you.

[SOLO]

First the cheesecake, now the mole...

This is really getting good.

Who from the glass towers will be next...?

BTW Mole, some Commanders actually tell their pax where they are based in the "welcome aboard" announcement. Remember the aeroplane? That's where it all happens...

[HandyAndy]

Hello Mole

In a similar position to christep, I am a paying customer of CX. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is not difficult to deduce that there is a crew change at YVR. Whilst I was talking to the FA at YVR during the security sweep (I was commenting to him the fact we could not deplane for a while there, another issue), he casually mentioned he was YVR based and we chatted about how often he got home to HK. Quite simple and friendly.

I believe I am safe in assuming that the FD crew is similarly based (particularly with the accents).

I have no ulterior motives behind my posts.

I have no fear of flying because of the poor labour relations between cockpit crew and management. As christep mentioned, the friction between you and Management is not the worry. The friction between you guys in the cockpit is. I am also sure that individually, the pilots at Cathay are among the most capable and professional in the flying world however when one sees a post from a professional pilot that is both threatening to his colleagues and demonstrates a desire to see him off the FD, it does make one wonder how a person could work under such a mindset.

Whether I am believable or not to you is not my concern. My only point is that judging by Thrust’s post, two people in mental conflict in a restricted space cannot be conducive to a happy and effective working environment.

Best!
HA

[tone-uncage-fire]

HA, Christrep etc,

As a CX pilot and having flown with mixed crews (AOA, management, non-union, scabs from previous airlines eg:QNZ and our current 'replacement workers) I can honestly tell you that from planning to touch-down the FD is entirely on the same song sheet. We may not play together.... but with 1700 pilots/personalities youre never going to be bosom buddies with all anyway. Its a shame, I agree.

Our aim is to get YOU safely and efficiently from A-to-B. Any angst, perceived or otherwise is far out weighed. Please dont not worry. (But I understand your concerns)

That said the AOA has played up this issue in an effort to get public support and Management have likewise used this to portray the AOA as unprofessional and unsupportive of the travelling public. Its all smoke screens and mirrors.

Its easy to be a tough guy on an anonymous forum (or talk the big talk at your local with your AOA [or management] buddies)... but, in my experience, I havent seen it effect FD ops.

[PeterZee]

Thrust

You have my sincere sympathy, to be wasting so much energy on maintaining your bitterness. You believe that the new joiners hold you in the same contempt you have for them - I can only speak for a couple, but it just ain't so. They just want to do their job and go home at night. Too bad for you if you need to sit there for 14 hours seething - the "replacement worker" sitting next to you is just blithely going about their job.

As far as your threats, you're only making things worse for everyone. CX management has indicated they'll deal harshly with anyone behaving as unprofessionally as you've described. Hell they can't afford NOT to, for the reasons outlined by HandyAndy! Tell me how that helps the AOA's cause?

Fight your real enemies.

[nudger]

*

[HandyAndy]

Yes of course I could do that nudger, but that would not help. Why do christep and I remain loyal to Cathay? - because we like flying with Cathay, we like the crew (we are not just a seat number and inconvenience to many) and service and a host of other things. I am sure Cathay and its staff like our patronage.

My reason for posting at all was to offer a view from the other side and how it actually looks and "feels" from my perspective.

It does matter to a lot of us what happens here.

Take care,
HA

[nudger]

*

[FlexibleResponse]

Even "Blind Freddie" can see an impact on Flight Safety

The poor labour relations between cockpit crew and management obviously has a detrimental effect on the safety of Flight Operations at Cathay Pacific. We are only arguing over the magnitude. One might question the wisdom or motives of those who say otherwise.

Unfortunately Cathay Pacific management do not have the vision of Blind Freddie.

The next thing that the spin doctors who will be telling us is that that it actually improves safety.