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Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

Old 23rd Oct 2020, 01:04
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If you wish to call me a fool that is your prerogative. I think my comments over 30+ years suggests otherwise. I’m sorry, but I know what is coming. It’s best everyone prepares accordingly.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 01:28
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I am still hopeful that bases will remain open, as it is the only exit strategy from that awful new "contract" for those in HK.
Nonetheless, if I were on a base, I'd be thinking about plan B now.
You can be certain that a basing review will be coming next.
How many will be kept open might depend on how many guys in HK decided to stay on cos18.
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Up until 3 days ago, none of us thought those fu****s could get rid of all of KA. They've taken the opportunity to streamline the whole operation and bases have been a headache for a long time now.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 01:30
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Originally Posted by Angel 8 View Post
Base Closure?
I don’t think so, as that will cost them 6 months salary for those who don’t want to relocate to HKG.
They have to offer same salary (in HKD) AND all the benefits under CoS08, otherwise it’s constructive dismissal.

On the re-training: Yes it was done before, but not en masse. We’re talking about at least a 777 full of pilots staying in the headless hotel for a long time waiting to do SIMs and Line flying.
Do they have to offer COS 08? I only ask as I have flown with some Aus based captains who were coming back pre-covid who said that going forward anyone coming back was COS 18 although I may have miss understood them.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 01:50
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UK/AUs/CAN /US have "forced majeure "? Basically union contracts mean nothing. Hoping for the best expecting the worst . Good luck boys !
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 02:18
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Originally Posted by fatbus;[url=[url
tel:10909935]10909935]UK/AUs/CAN /US have "forced majeure "? Basically union contracts mean nothing. Hoping for the best expecting the worst . Good luck boys !
First of all it is called “force majeure” and this clause has to be in the contract.

This is not true for CAN and US. Can’t comment on the other bases.

CBA’s are valid until expiration date. All the base contracts have provisions for base closure and/or reduction in positions. CX could have closed the bases or reduce positions if they wanted to, but at the moment CX decided not to do this

The North American base CBA’s can be renegotiated in 2021, as such it is entirely possible CX is planning to negotiate concessions similar to those in COS18.

So please stop with all your uneducated guesses and statements about base labour laws and contracts. It is clear to me that some of the above posters have absolutely no idea how first world labor laws work. An employer can not ignore them as they wish without facing the consequences.


Last edited by GTC58; 23rd Oct 2020 at 02:35.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 02:40
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It was a question ! Also very informed /educated on contract law just not CX . I'll retract the " good luck" to my CX brethren! And spell check the "d"
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 02:43
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AUS based CN are now more expensive than equivalent COS18 HK based CN.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 03:38
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AUS based CN are now more expensive than equivalent COS18 HK based CN.
incorrect.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 04:00
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HK pilots still getting up to $68k per month in housing for the next two years or at least HKPA, plus many have kids at DBIS or AUS international school or boarding school O/S. Based guys get salary and health insurance, that's it. Headland hotel & it's allowances are also cheaper than most layovers. Why would you bring em back to HK (as per COS), it makes no sense. They can also be stood down on zero or partial pay indefinitely.

Last edited by Busbitch; 23rd Oct 2020 at 04:33.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 04:32
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Originally Posted by Busbitch View Post
HK pilots still getting up to $68k per month in housing for the next two years or at least HKPA, plus many have kids at DBIS or AUS international school or boarding school in O/S.
They are temporary transitional benefits only for current HKG based pilots. If based pilots come back they will return on the the prevailing contract which is COS18 on local terms, which means 30K housing, schooling capped, no PRI4, reduced annual leave, no repatriation flights, no repatriation of goods, reduced medical, reduced provident fund, and they will also have to pay for their own return to HKG and for the shipping of their goods. COS18 is a local package, all expat benefits removed.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 05:18
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Pointing fingers at each other in this situation solves absolutely nothing.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 05:36
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Get used to it. This is what happens when there is no seniority/LIFO career protection. Everybody is a target. And everybody is desperately pointing out any other targets, anyone except them.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 06:08
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Originally Posted by Farman Biplane View Post
AUS based CN are now more expensive than equivalent COS18 HK based CN.

No they are NOT. I carefully ran the comparison last night between the top scale for Cos18 ( Captain 4 ) and the top scale for Oz base ( year 17 CN ) both flying 84 hours a month on the A330/350. The Cos18 came out at $1,700 AUD month MORE than the base. That was calculated using 15.5% PF for base, 10% for Cos18 and it DID NOT consider any expat allowances or 13th month in HK which obviously makes it worse again.

The base is cheaper still.

I suggest you actually run some real World contract numbers and see for yourself.

I then ran the same comparison for an FO, the based FO is around $550 AUD a month cheaper as well.

Last edited by ACMS; 23rd Oct 2020 at 06:19.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 06:37
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A thoughtful and kind post well said. One can only imagine the devastation CX have caused.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 06:41
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ACMS, did you add in the HKD33,000 monthly allowance into the equation?

And by 84 hours, did you mean "about 70" block hours for COS18?
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 06:49
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
No they are NOT. I carefully ran the comparison last night between the top scale for Cos18 ( Captain 4 ) and the top scale for Oz base ( year 17 CN ) both flying 84 hours a month on the A330/350. The Cos18 came out at $1,700 AUD month MORE than the base. That was calculated using 15.5% PF for base, 10% for Cos18 and it DID NOT consider any expat allowances or 13th month in HK which obviously makes it worse again.

The base is cheaper still.

I suggest you actually run some real World contract numbers and see for yourself.

I then ran the same comparison for an FO, the based FO is around $550 AUD a month cheaper as well.
The problem with that rationale is that Cos18 is a productivity based contract. And impinges on PF and everything else.
None of us will be flying anywhere near 84 ( block or otherwise) hrs for the foreseeable future. Let alone 45 hrs. So at the point of cutover, ie next month, a level 4 cn here in HKG on effectively local terms, will be cheaper than his based counterpart ( transition arrangements for ARAPA and CEA aside, and that was only done to prevent a complete meltdown). And that’s what they’ll look at. Along with LSL, and just being a general thorn in their sides and not worth the candle. Note that I take no pleasure in this. Just pointing out that they’ve achieved NR’s dream and got us all on local terms. So I would definitely expect the worst. And
I wouldn’t place too much hope on 1st world courts. They will have bigger fish to fry once the collateral damage from the pandemic has kicked in.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 06:55
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Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
The problem with that rationale is that Cos18 is a productivity based contract. And impinges on PF and everything else.
None of us will be flying anywhere near 84 hrs for the foreseeable future. Let alone 45 hrs. So at the point of cutover, ie next month, a level 4 cn here in HKG on effectively local terms, will be cheaper than his based counterpart. And that’s what they’ll look at. Along with LSL, and just being a general thorn in their sides and not worth the candle. Note that I take no pleasure in this. Just pointing out that they’ve achieved NR’s dream and got us all on local terms. So I would definitely expect the worst. And
I wouldn’t place too much hope on 1st world courts. They will have bigger fish to fry once the collateral damage from the pandemic has kicked in.

No again, Oz based Pilots are stood down on 50% plus the Govt pays Cx job keeper. Stood down until flying improves....So by March 2021 they will have been on 50% a whole year......A very BIG saving to Cx.
The Oz based Pilots have made a huge sacrifice for the company and probably will for a bit longer.....

Oh and a HK Captain 4 doing zero hours still gets up to $33K a month housing and possibly Education allowances as well on top of the base salary......... So tell me how Oz based are more expensive on a paltry 50% moving forward until flying increases?

This is not about HKG v Oz base ( or any other base ) Pilots......but don’t tell me Oz bases aren’t cheap, they most certainly are for what Cx get.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 07:01
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Well then, we should all be grateful for your
sacrifice.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 07:08
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Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
Well then, we should all be grateful for your
sacrifice.

We aren’t asking you to be grateful mate, just keep it real and compare Apples with Apples.

Based Pilots didn’t take a base to make money.......
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 07:14
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Boy, there are some really nasty people here.
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