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CX management. Moral Turpidude

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

CX management. Moral Turpidude

Old 21st Jun 2020, 23:13
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Notice the newspapers are saying new cases not new deaths, if you test enough people youíll get an increased number of virus cases, doesnít mean a second wave. The test for Covid is complete pseudo science at best, false positives galore amongst asymptomatic individuals and itís not even specific against Covid, the specificity of the test does not preclude different antigens registering a positive result.

Last edited by Threethirty; 21st Jun 2020 at 23:45.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 23:38
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Politicians destroying the economy. Doing what they deem will get them the most votes. There are people who work for CX who think it is great that the AUS government is closing its borders till 2021. I mention working for CX as you would have thought that people doing this job would be above average intelligence. 4 times as many people died of flu last year than have from coronavirus in Australia. Hong Kong has had 1130 cases and 5 deaths. 0.5% death rate. Hong Kong medical care is not superior so why has the UK got over a 10% death rate? This is media and politicians.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 23:42
  #103 (permalink)  
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Hit the nail on the head Sloppy. The greatest mass hysteria (and promoted by cynical politicians) event of our lifetime. Eventually the numbers will be fully established, and the authoritarians who have crawled to the surface and destroyed the livelihoods of millions will be called to account.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 00:47
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Sloppy Joe, politicians are supposed to do what gets them the most votes. This concept is called democracy.

Additionally, reason means judging a situation independent from your own situation. Your claim that an affected pilot with "above average intelligence" can't support border closures makes therefore no sense.

It also doesn't make sense to quote the low infection rates in Hong Hong and elsewhere as argument against border closures, these low rates are of course the product of border closures.

The comparison with the flue also do not make sense. Piles of dead bodies in cooler vans because the morgues were already full, as it happened in New York and elsewhere, should be a small hint. It is not the flue, and to claim it is even less deadlier than the flue is absurd.

There is of course no glory in prevention, but the simplicity of the arguments in here are really astonishing.

Have a quick glance at the situation and death rates in Brazil, that is what you get without action. I am very glad Hong Kong and (eventually) the UK reacted differently.

Note then that the economy in Brazil is suffering even worse presently, without a lockdown. The belief people would have just carried on with their lives, their businesss trips and exotic holidays, all in the midst of a global pandemic with overflown hospitals is of course an illusion. Note then that in countries with the most strict lockdown the economy actually recovers quicker then in those with more relaxed rules.

Nobody of us has any medical training, any experience, any qualifications in fighting a pandemic, any knowledge in the field of virology whatsoever.

Nevertheless, not unlike the global warming discussion, a lot of people don't let this complete lack of expertise be in the way of declaring a solution. Note that this "solution" is almost always radical, easy and simple. Which makes sense, because without expertise that is of course all one can offer. The ignorance and complete disregard for reason and science effectively contained in this perspective is really quite astonishing.

So let's have a look from a bit of a distance.

On the one hand, thousands of experts, doctors, scientists from the best universities and institutions, among them nobel laureates and distinguished professors , thousands of virologists with decades of work and research experience,all recommend more or less the current strategy.

On the other hand, Prof cxorcist and Dr mngmt mole on PPRuNe think it is all a hoax and borders should open up immediately because it's just the flue and a big conspiracy...

Nobody can presently say what the best strategy is with absolute certainty. It may well be other strategies would have worked better, but we simply can't say for sure at this point.I personally would not be surprised if in hindsight an actually even stricter lockdown wouldn't have been better, but it will be a question for historians to decide that. But if I have to decide now between a few disgruntled pilots and the global scientific community I think I might just go for the latter this one time.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 22nd Jun 2020 at 01:59.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 01:51
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Sloppy Joe, politicians are supposed to do what gets them the most votes. This concept is called democracy.

Additionally, reason means judging a situation independent from your own situation. Your claim that an affected pilot with "above average intelligence" can't support border closures makes therefore no sense.

It also doesn't make sense to quote the low infection rates in Hong Hong and elsewhere as argument against border closures, these low rates are of course the product of border closures.

The comparison with the flue also do not make sense. Piles of dead bodies in cooler vans because the morgues were already full, as it happened in New York and elsewhere, should be a small hint. It is not the flue, and to claim it is even less deadlier than the flue is absurd.

There is of course no glory in prevention, but the simplicity of the arguments in here are really astonishing.

Have a quick glance at the situation and death rates in Brazil, that is what you get without action. I am very glad Hong Kong and (eventually) the UK reacted differently.

Note then that the economy in Brazil is suffering even worse presently, without a lockdown. The belief people would have just carried on with their lives, their businesss trips and exotic holidays, all in the midst of a global pandemic with overflown hospitals is of course an illusion. Note then that in countries with the most strict lockdown the economy actually recovers quicker then in those with more relaxed rules.

Nobody of us has any medical training or expertise, any experience, any training in fighting a pandemic or any knowledge in virology whatsoever.

On the one hand, thousands of experts, doctors, scientists from the best universities, virologists with decades of work and research experience,all recommend more or less the current strategy.

On the other hand, Prof cxorcist and Dr mngmt mole on PPRuNe think it is all a hoax and borders should open up immediately because it's just the flue and a big conspiracy...

Nobody can presently say what the best strategy is with absolute certainty. It may well be other strategies would have worked better, but we simply can't say for sure at this point.I personally would not be surprised if in hindsight an actually even stricter lockdown wouldn't have been better, but it will be a question for historians to decide that. But if I have to decide now between a few disgruntled pilots and the global scientific community I think I might just go for the latter this one time.
I think you can put the plandemic/scamdemic about on par in reality with the 1967 Hong Kong flu (for which none of the incoherent reactions of the modern world were attempted). Real contagious, benign to most, devastating to some. And used as a vehicle by just about everyone everywhere to push their agenda and exploit the fear and political opportunity (including perhaps an opportunity for the commies to the north to rid themselves of burdensome citizens perhaps not fully dead while providing little meaningful care to others).

What swung things was the reaction of the US. The moment protests and violent looting kicked in (politically advantageous to a certain sector of politicians) any mitigation strategies were quickly thrown out the window in favor of letting the protests and violence happen (both by statists and the propaganda media). Shuttering businesses, churches, gyms, bars, restaurants, hairdressers, requiring useless masks in public, etc. while rioting mobs of people gathered unencumbered who scoffed at any type of precaution--fully endorsed by the same politicians who were dictating the shuttering. In fact, the individual toward which the apparent police brutality occurred got to have 3 unrestricted huge funerals despite the draconian sweeping ban on funerals for the citizens of a lesser god over the last several months. So as usual the common folks who follow the rules got slammed and scammed while those in favor with the statists got to do whatever they wanted.

You can't have it both ways.

FWIW, the states which opened first fared no worse (and to some extent better) than the shutdown states. So like the Hong Kong flu it didn't really make much difference in terms of 'science' but did in terms of economic destruction.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 03:17
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Slasher, you just proved my point. The solutions you are offering are too simple and one dimensional with all respect.
Just one quick example.

Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
FWIW, the states which opened first fared no worse (and to some extent better) than the shutdown states. So like the Hong Kong flu it didn't really make much difference in terms of 'science' but did in terms of economic destruction.
Let's for a moment assume your basic assumption was right and the states that opened earlier fared "better" ( which I also doubt, but for the sake of the argument).

It is obviously not feasible to compare states to each other by looking at just one variable ( time of opening). You are extremely underestimating the difficulty of the problem and the complexity of statistics.

Every state in the US has of course it's own characteristics, e.g. density, demographics, size, infection rates, public transport system, economic structure, geographical position, level of education, infrastructure etc etc.

Any statistically valid comparison need to be controlled for underlying variables. It is impossible to do such a comparison without specific expertise in a number of fields, e.g. economics, epidemiology etc. It makes no sense the way you put it.

I don't know much about the Hong Kong flu from 1967, or any other pandemic, but of course the virologist and epidemiologist have studied this and very other pandemic extensively. That is what they do, the very nature of their profession. Again, as a layman without any education or training in the field, none whatsoever, to boldly declare this is all " like 1967" is quite astonishing in my opinion.

But then you put science in brackets, which to me indicates we are not on the same page anyway. My suspicion is that in this case, as in many other areas of political disagreement, the differences have rather cultural/moral origins.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 22nd Jun 2020 at 03:49.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 08:21
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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To put it simply, it’s rather easy to make a moron out of yourself when you talk about things in which you are not a subject matter expert.

But that’s the sign of the times. Everyone seems to be stuck in their social media echo chamber participating in a psychological experiment no one consented to. Any debate and difference of opinion HAS to be had in the dumbest way possible. As long as we don’t agree on everything exactly, we are enemies!

Anyone that can not identify with my exact position must be gotten rid of. Snowflakes! All of them! Am I glad I’m not from, don’t live in and have nothing to do with the USA. That entire society seems to have lost its mind on both sides of the political spectrum.

Unfortunately it seems the disease is spreading.

Last edited by drfaust; 23rd Jun 2020 at 03:00.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 08:33
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Mate of mine rapidly easing out of his local lockdown has, throughout, asked all he knows ; "Do you know of anyone who got the virus ?" Not one. "Do you know of anyone who got the virus and died OF the Virus, not "with" the virus ?" Not one . Where he lives, retirement Village, 4000 ex-pat retirees. All ok. Not ONE got the virus or knew anyone who did and/or did & died. He now knows of ONE who did test positive but has yet to establish whether that ONE case had "underlying health issues" .

Now that Governments know how easy it is to control & lock-up most compliant and herd mentallity beings who will readily spy on each-other and look about at fellow neighbours to ensure observance of banging tin pots against the wall in support of, aaaaaaah, can't believe I'm falling for it, the NHS !..............The second wave IS coming.......... But, this one is far more sinister.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 08:37
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by slowjet View Post
Mate of mine rapidly easing out of his local lockdown has, throughout, asked all he knows ; "Do you know of anyone who got the virus ?" Not one. "Do you know of anyone who got the virus and died OF the Virus, not "with" the virus ?" Not one . Where he lives, retirement Village, 4000 ex-pat retirees. All ok. Not ONE got the virus or knew anyone who did and/or did & died. He now knows of ONE who did test positive but has yet to establish whether that ONE case had "underlying health issues" .

Now that Governments know how easy it is to control & lock-up most compliant and herd mentallity beings who will readily spy on each-other and look about at fellow neighbours to ensure observance of banging tin pots against the wall in support of, aaaaaaah, can't believe I'm falling for it, the NHS !..............The second wave IS coming.......... But, this one is far more sinister.
Have you already bought your tin foil hat?
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 09:56
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Who is this Turpi dude anyway?
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 10:46
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Wow at least most of you on this thread can go back to their jobs as a medical professionals if you all loose your jobs as pilots ha ha ha!

I think before we see any redundancies a lot will change. Maybe we stay on our current COS, housing is/will be a thing of the past (HKPA for everyone). Everyone will be on 50% pay cuts, RRO for everyone. Lots and Lots to do before chopping us. The AOA is working hard to try come up with lots of ways to save jobs.

SAVE jobs should be the most important thing!
The question is are you going to give up a big portion of your salary to save the jobs of the junior pilots? I must say I will try help my situation and that of all the pilots in CX!
It is time to come together. Downsize in life for a year or so. This is a terrible time for everyone and remember that all the actions we take in the near future will have consequences for everyone!
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 13:17
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
Wow at least most of you on this thread can go back to their jobs as a medical professionals if you all loose your jobs as pilots ha ha ha!

I think before we see any redundancies a lot will change. Maybe we stay on our current COS, housing is/will be a thing of the past (HKPA for everyone). Everyone will be on 50% pay cuts, RRO for everyone. Lots and Lots to do before chopping us. The AOA is working hard to try come up with lots of ways to save jobs.

SAVE jobs should be the most important thing!
The question is are you going to give up a big portion of your salary to save the jobs of the junior pilots? I must say I will try help my situation and that of all the pilots in CX!
It is time to come together. Downsize in life for a year or so. This is a terrible time for everyone and remember that all the actions we take in the near future will have consequences for everyone!
You donít destroy the contract to save jobs. That is airline union 101. Need an example? Ask the US Air guys how that worked out for them... Many of them lost their jobs anyways, and the rest had to work under a vastly degraded contract that never improved until they merged with AA over two decades later. You keep the contract(s) in place, solid and respected. That way, we all have a job worth coming back to when the business returns.

Iím all for leaves without pay, part time work arrangements, early retirements, etc to give those at the bottom a better chance, but NO CONCESSIONS!!! Junior guys at ANY airline know they are vulnerable. Thatís part of being junior. And donít tell me about the Virgin pilots. We arenít them, and they arenít us. Iím far more interested in looking at airline unions that defend their contact and seniority lists.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 13:36
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Lol.....you gotta love the internet.

One of the few places that a person with little knowledge and no real study of history can proclaim blind trust in faceless entities who've been consistently wrong with their 'models' and then go forth to proclaim others 'morons.'
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 13:55
  #114 (permalink)  
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Right on Slasher. Dr. Fauci: "masks good", "masks bad", "masks good". Liberal commentators: "Trump rallies bad....unsafe distancing", "BLM rallies good.....apparently that distancing is ok". Meanwhile, the total number of deaths of ALL causes in the main western economies (what's left of them) is trending almost the same as the same period last year...and the year before that...etc, etc. Buy into the hysteria if you wish, but history will almost certainly point to this as the mass hysteria event of the modern age (ably promoted by the liberal media and the elite power brokers).
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 14:54
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
Lol.....you gotta love the internet.

One of the few places that a person with little knowledge and no real study of history can proclaim blind trust in faceless entities who've been consistently wrong with their 'models' and then go forth to proclaim others 'morons.'
Slasher, I actually like your attitude but you donít help by contradicting yourself in the one sentence. Itís impossible for people to stay on their current contract and yet housing be gone.

Also the current redundancy clause would be more palatable to many, if not most, than 50% pay for an undefined period. Receive a payout including provident fund, return unemployed to a society structured to give a reasonable lifestyle for the unemployed (some would argue a superior lifestyle than being employed full time in Hong Kong, let alone on 50% pay) while being guaranteed a return to the airline once the business situation permits.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 15:29
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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There has been a global population increase of 38000000 this year.
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
Perspective.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 15:48
  #117 (permalink)  
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So on that basis, the actual death rate per 100,000 worldwide has dropped this year...
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 17:35
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of sounding callous, I wish we would just allow the virus to spread throughout society, because itís not dangerous for most folks. Letís keep the elderly and other vulnerables isolated. Then, we could all get the antibodies and get on with running the economy. In my mind, less people die this way than sending the global economy into a massive depression. But what do I know, Iím not a medical professional. Just a not quite million dollar moron.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 21:52
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
At the risk of sounding callous, I wish we would just allow the virus to spread throughout society, because itís not dangerous for most folks. Letís keep the elderly and other vulnerables isolated. Then, we could all get the antibodies and get on with running the economy. In my mind, less people die this way than sending the global economy into a massive depression. But what do I know, Iím not a medical professional. Just a not quite million dollar moron.
Sweden tried that approach.

didnít end well

just noticed Brazilís horror stats this morning

Last edited by JMock; 22nd Jun 2020 at 22:45.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 22:56
  #120 (permalink)  
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Sweden also didn't destroy their economy. The levels of depression/suicide/family breakdown/poverty are only just beginning the rest of the western world. Once history has had a chance to evaluate, i'm quite certain Sweden will look quite enlightened. (and before you or someone comes back with the inevitable rebuttal...ask yourselves this question: if another virus arrives next year...and the year after etc....are you suggesting the world shuts down every 4 months out of 12?. Thought not).
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