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No real need for concessions

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No real need for concessions

Old 22nd May 2020, 22:38
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
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No real need for concessions

At the end of March the company reported it had 20 billon HKD in liquidity. The sale of the 777s gained another 5.5 billon HKD. The company also reported it could easily call on more liquidity. More recently Qatar has said it would happily provide additional funds (for a bigger slice).

We do not need to make concessions. Aircrew salaries are only 9% of the direct operating costs according to Airbus (they also say fuel is 40% - but for CX at times it probably closer to 80% considering our masters' fuel hedging).

If we do make concessions they should only last as long as the current slump in demand.

If they try to force us onto POS18 it will be the end of us. The POS18 documents are available on IntraxCX. Take a look (search for COS18 and navigate to the web page with the Handbook and COS documents). I knew COS18 was a POS, but I can't believe just how bad it is. Those who have signed up for it must have been really desperate.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 00:19
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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agree, yield will return at some point.

This is a time for near term concessions not for permanent contractual change.

The narrative is forming, the target is in sight, management are now timing the strike.

Wombaticus is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 04:00
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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No real need for concessions?

Possibly, but I fear it’s a rather hypothetical statement that is quite irrelevant to what’s about to happen. Need and want seem to be interchangeable verbs on both sides of the industrial table and as such has stifled intelligent discussions on a way forward. In 2017 the DFO “needed” permanent concessions. Throughout the last two years we’ve heard the AOA tell us we “need” adjustments to pay, HKPA, CEA, RP’s. Now we’ll probably hear there isn’t a “need” for adjustments to pay, HKPA, CEA, ARAP, PF, RP’s etc. You can’t have it both ways unless it was never a need to begin with, but simply a want with leverage from market forces and its resulting attrition.

Market forces can work for and against the pilot body. If you think pilots were desperate enough to sign POS18 in 2018/19, have a guess as to the level of desperation in 2020. The pilot body squandered its industrial leverage. Do you think management will do the same simply because you don’t think it’s “needed”?

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 23rd May 2020 at 04:31.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:04
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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You think our agreement to concessions will be required?

Hilarious 😅😅😅😅😅

Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 07:51
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Join Date: Feb 2020
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Has anyone (including the AOA and branches) written or been in touch with management to ask why is this extended silence and uncertainty that is destroying morale continuing, and has management been in touch or are consulting the aoa or anyone about the future structure of CXKAAHE ?

Though one may be assured that No news is Good news...
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:11
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
You think our agreement to concessions will be required?

Hilarious 😅😅😅😅😅
Just do everyone a favor... don’t sign anything unless they are willing to put your head on a stake. Make it “sign or be fired”... That way, we can expose them for exactly what a CX contract in HK means, which is nothing.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 09:42
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Originally Posted by Angel 8 View Post
Has anyone (including the AOA and branches) written or been in touch with management to ask why is this extended silence and uncertainty that is destroying morale continuing, and has management been in touch or are consulting the aoa or anyone about the future structure of CXKAAHE ?

Though one may be assured that No news is Good news...
Interestingly the DPA have been told LIFO still stands (including the COS18 people currently employed). The date for the AOA meeting now coincides with that of the DPA. Make of that what you will. I would expect it will be a common theme for both associations.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 17:02
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Originally Posted by AllWobbly View Post
Interestingly the DPA have been told LIFO still stands (including the COS18 people currently employed). The date for the AOA meeting now coincides with that of the DPA. Make of that what you will. I would expect it will be a common theme for both associations.
Has a date been set?
badge42 is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 18:10
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Join Date: Dec 1998
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You may have noticed that Sten Kroutil and Chris Hoyland have returned to the "negotiating" team for CX. Anyone who was here through the early 2000's will well understand that things are about to get decidedly worse. In particular, Kroutil seems to have made it his mission to destroy the terms and conditions of pilots both here and in Canada. Speaking of viruses...
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Old 23rd May 2020, 18:49
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Both of those two are absolutely horrible individuals, they have absolutely no redeeming features .
cannot is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 19:33
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Severance packages for senior captains, 6-9 month temporary pay reductions, 100% HKAOA commitment not to sign any other CoS. Nothing less.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 20:47
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
You think our agreement to concessions will be required?

Hilarious 😅😅😅😅😅
Yes I do. Under HKG Law a company can't force a worse contract on a employee, the employee must agree to the changes.

We had to agree to SLS - a variation of your contract which was to your disadvantage. Whereas a few years ago the company 'settled' our pay increase demands with a lesser increase they could impose on us without agreement as it was an improvement on our conditions.

When a new COS is presented to us don't be a little bitch, grow a pair and evaluate the consequences, before you agree to anything.

After all the talk of working together and fixing the divide between aircrew and management it appears they are determined to pineapple us (if Sten K or Chris H were on fire I would piss AVGAS on to them).


Last edited by controlledrest; 24th May 2020 at 01:54.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 23:18
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Originally Posted by badge42 View Post
Has a date been set?
The meetings are 10 June
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Old 24th May 2020, 01:11
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Originally Posted by cannot View Post
Both of those two are absolutely horrible individuals, they have absolutely no redeeming features .
SK in particular is a nasty piece of work. If he is being brought over it can only be bad news for us, a pilot hater to the core.
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:20
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Agree, D68.

SK's attitude to pilots makes it look like Hitler's ideas on the jews was a slight disagreement over which hymn to sing on Sunday mass.
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:22
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Have at look at the latest DFO's reply (dated 21st May) in the Letters Section of the HKAOA website for a hint of what's coming.
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Old 24th May 2020, 05:15
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
At the end of March the company reported it had 20 billon HKD in liquidity. The sale of the 777s gained another 5.5 billon HKD. The company also reported it could easily call on more liquidity. More recently Qatar has said it would happily provide additional funds (for a bigger slice).

We do not need to make concessions. Aircrew salaries are only 9% of the direct operating costs according to Airbus (they also say fuel is 40% - but for CX at times it probably closer to 80% considering our masters' fuel hedging).

If we do make concessions they should only last as long as the current slump in demand.

If they try to force us onto POS18 it will be the end of us. The POS18 documents are available on IntraxCX. Take a look (search for COS18 and navigate to the web page with the Handbook and COS documents). I knew COS18 was a POS, but I can't believe just how bad it is. Those who have signed up for it must have been really desperate.
Wow, talk about deluded.
Whether you think we need to make concessions or not has exactly zero influence on the outcome. The HKAOA and 3500 pilots will be passengers on this journey.
Will IB Fayed is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 05:47
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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As well us 747F guys working constantly, plenty of 777 guys are on full rosters, with some of them even being called out into over time. Go figure?
400 Jockey is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 06:31
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I suppose the meeting was delayed for 14 day quarantine, of course the disease of SK AND CH is worse the. Covid
viking avenger is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 07:37
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Originally Posted by Will IB Fayed View Post
Wow, talk about deluded.
Whether you think we need to make concessions or not has exactly zero influence on the outcome. The HKAOA and 3500 pilots will be passengers on this journey.

I'm not deluded at all. There is no real reason for us to make concessions. I am fully aware and pissed off that the ****ers who run this outfit will use this disaster to rape us.
controlledrest is offline  

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