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PR Holders Verses Work Permits

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

PR Holders Verses Work Permits

Old 17th May 2020, 18:41
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
In at least one of the jurisdictions offshore fiscal responsibility will eventually be tied to the parent corporation so there's no 'shell corporation' shield. The only option to evade this would be for the parent to go bankrupt and place the asset distribution to creditors (which would include obligations toward unpaid pilots) before a bankruptcy court. I have no idea how this would work or if it even could work for an entity like CX.

So any involuntary furlough out of seniority would be a huge expensive quagmire. Doesn't mean they wouldn't try it with some scheme but in the long run IMHO they'll likely lose the case. Be interesting to see what they come up with.

The easiest way to avoid the mess is simply to furlough by seniority -- which is exactly what the contract says -- and/or have an attractive voluntary package of temp leave/retirement. Which is what US carriers (who have similar seniority based contract provisions) did. There's really not any way around seniority based furlough (if it comes to needing to furlough) that won't result in legal action (which given the specifics of the contract they're likely to lose anyway) and be costly for the company in any case. But I guess it'll give something for the newly furloughed guys to do. Guess we'll see one way or another.
There is no furlough provision in Hong Kong COS, traditionally furlough for airline pilots is an American thing where by you are simply no longer required and you don't work and you don't get any pay, if and when things pick up you get to come back to work if you so choose! This does not exist at Cathay, nor does it exist in Hong Kong, or the majority of the on-shored base locations, no idea what the CBa on the USA bases says.

In Hong Kong and the majority of our bases we have redundancy and the associated redundancy payment which is better than furlough as you don't get any severance payment on furlough with a US airline, so if and when we make cuts at Cathay they will be redundancies not furloughs, and they will come with the legally required payouts! This is why it's much better for the company to negotiate a reduction in wages and conditions (in the short term) than to start making employees redundant.

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Old 17th May 2020, 18:49
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 223
The best way to view this is through the prism of senior management. What would you do if you were in their boots and looking for a short term quick fix to enhance the company’s bottom line and your own reputation as a top gun “negotiator “?
Mgmt Mole is completely correct when he says that this Covid19 crisis has presented them (and every other airline manager in the world) with a once in a lifetime opportunity to restructure the airline. To be seen to be doing nothing will be viewed as weakness by their peers.
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Old 17th May 2020, 19:04
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 353
"To be seen to be doing nothing will be viewed as weakness by their peers." ...and the Chinese up north owners.

CodyBlade is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 19:19
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by LLLQNH View Post
There is no furlough provision in Hong Kong COS, traditionally furlough for airline pilots is an American thing where by you are simply no longer required and you don't work and you don't get any pay, if and when things pick up you get to come back to work if you so choose! This does not exist at Cathay, nor does it exist in Hong Kong, or the majority of the on-shored base locations, no idea what the CBa on the USA bases says.

In Hong Kong and the majority of our bases we have redundancy and the associated redundancy payment which is better than furlough as you don't get any severance payment on furlough with a US airline, so if and when we make cuts at Cathay they will be redundancies not furloughs, and they will come with the legally required payouts! This is why it's much better for the company to negotiate a reduction in wages and conditions (in the short term) than to start making employees redundant.
Given that very clear section in the contract that's titled "LAYOFF AND RECALL" I beg to differ.

FWIW, many US carriers DO have pay protection furlough/layoff provisions in their CBA. As does CX (6 months pay protection on one form of the contract). Which is one of the many reasons US carriers sought voluntary (paid) leave.

Perhaps we're stuck in semantics.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 20:14
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post
Dream on... so he rejects the employment offer as designated in his contract to do exactly what for the based corporate entity that no longer exists... 🙄
He is made redundant and will receive redundancy and severance pay.

Which would be most welcomed by the based senior demographic. Base closure requires 90 days notice, if chosen not to return to Hong Kong 6 months redundancy pay. One jurisdiction in particular would require up to 4 weeks severance per YOS for Captains up to 3 weeks for FOs.

Everything considered a nice package, which most likely makes it financially unattractive, at least in the immediate future, to close the bases. Negotiating a Collective Agreement with reduced terms is more likely then a base closure, IMHO.

FYI, the Canadian FAs are receiving 1 week severance per YOS when the YVR cabin crew base will be closed in June. CX followed labor law and their collective agreement when closing the base. Why do some on this board think it would be any different for the pilot bases?

Another question someone has brought up is what happens if the HKG Immigration department refuses to issue work permits for those affected by the base closure without HKG PR and wishing to return to Hong Kong?

Anyways, we will know pretty soon. One thing is for sure, the new CX will be a very different company when the dust has settled.
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