The Coming Battle
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole
You would have thought they learned their lesson with the 49ers. I fear they are tone deaf to their own dysfunction.
Open your eyes.
The war is over.
Game. Set. Match. Swire.
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"dependant as much on whether you had pissed off somebody at the Hebe Haven Yacht Club with some imagined faux pas, or whether they plain just disliked you..or your wife. Or if somebody “liked” your wife too much. If you get my drift."
How thoroughly charming that is!!! (Yuk!!!)....and no....I DID not betray a friend whilst staying on his boat at Hebe Haven, even though his wife may have had other ideas..that sh!t is not on!
How thoroughly charming that is!!! (Yuk!!!)....and no....I DID not betray a friend whilst staying on his boat at Hebe Haven, even though his wife may have had other ideas..that sh!t is not on!
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Originally Posted by controlledrest
They certainly did learn a lesson. Sack 49 pilots and the next day the flights are all flown. No more go slow. No more sickness.
Funniest part, if there was such a thing, is the AOAs own data and data from airport authority showed that a tiny amount, maybe 12% we’re actually doing MSS. All the rest were talking the talk, like AOA members always do, but keeping their heads down. Even now, 20 yrs on, guys will still swear on their mothers grave they all did MSS.........
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the way guys talk about the 49ers like the AOA somehow won is sad and deluded. 49 guys won a court case for lost wages of over 6 million each. That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. Company won, as it always does. Sickness went from 11% to 0.4%
Furthermore, although the individuals were awarded a meagre amount, and thus seemed as a hollow victory, the favourable jurisdiction ruling in Crofts versus Veta has ended up costing the company millions indirectly as they no longer could base crews and circumnavigate labor laws as they pleased.
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[QUOTE=Pickuptruck;10776820 That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. [/QUOTE]
I’ve been following this thread with interest and my view is, if you’re going to use history as an indicator of possible future strategy and tactics, the first thing to do is take the time to educate yourself and at least get your facts straight. In the end, at the Court of Final Appeal, The 49ers each received around HKD1.2 million (some more some less) each plus around 70% of their legal costs (a major factor). Much less than the original award of ca HKD4m, admittedly, but still a sight more than the 300K “set amount” quoted earlier. In addition, the cases set legal precedents in HK & the UK which still, to this day, offer protections to employees based in these jurisdictions which previously were untested and, therefore, effectively unavailable to them.
Now to those who think they might be able to use legal avenues to redress any perceived grievances if the Swires decide simply to ignore the contract provisions and scythe through the pilots utilising their usual m.o., I say this. Firstly, you would need to be able to finance such actions up front and, secondly, are you prepared for a protracted legal battle that may take up to 5 years or more? If the answers to both these questions are yes, then very good luck to you but, finally, beware of force majeure.
I’ve been following this thread with interest and my view is, if you’re going to use history as an indicator of possible future strategy and tactics, the first thing to do is take the time to educate yourself and at least get your facts straight. In the end, at the Court of Final Appeal, The 49ers each received around HKD1.2 million (some more some less) each plus around 70% of their legal costs (a major factor). Much less than the original award of ca HKD4m, admittedly, but still a sight more than the 300K “set amount” quoted earlier. In addition, the cases set legal precedents in HK & the UK which still, to this day, offer protections to employees based in these jurisdictions which previously were untested and, therefore, effectively unavailable to them.
Now to those who think they might be able to use legal avenues to redress any perceived grievances if the Swires decide simply to ignore the contract provisions and scythe through the pilots utilising their usual m.o., I say this. Firstly, you would need to be able to finance such actions up front and, secondly, are you prepared for a protracted legal battle that may take up to 5 years or more? If the answers to both these questions are yes, then very good luck to you but, finally, beware of force majeure.
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Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
the way guys talk about the 49ers like the AOA somehow won is sad and deluded. 49 guys won a court case for lost wages of over 6 million each. That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. Company won, as it always does. Sickness went from 11% to 0.4%
Funniest part, if there was such a thing, is the AOAs own data and data from airport authority showed that a tiny amount, maybe 12% we’re actually doing MSS. All the rest were talking the talk, like AOA members always do, but keeping their heads down. Even now, 20 yrs on, guys will still swear on their mothers grave they all did MSS.........
Funniest part, if there was such a thing, is the AOAs own data and data from airport authority showed that a tiny amount, maybe 12% we’re actually doing MSS. All the rest were talking the talk, like AOA members always do, but keeping their heads down. Even now, 20 yrs on, guys will still swear on their mothers grave they all did MSS.........
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The Coming Battle
Ladies & Gents. Battle isn't coming. Sabre rattling isn't battle; it never was.
Pre-dating the 49ers was the often conveniently forgotten FAU Strike of 1993. I was on the 'perfume picket line' outside company HQ at Kai Tak. The major crew industrial action that hugely impacted CX operations and very nearly brought the company to heel. At the time the pilots were also unhappy (talking of industrial action even in those days). As the strike action initially and effectively crippled operations there were rumours of the pilots belatedly joining the strike. With the pilots involved, the result would have most likely been very different. Everyone was asking: "When will the pilots join, where are they?" For their own reasons (which of course can easily be guessed) they didn't engage; the rest is history gentlemen, its that simple. The Flight Atttendants Union fought a sustained strike for weeks. The company used all the usual fear tactics to successfully divide the FAU membership eventually crushing the strike; amongst the fallout being terminations, disciplinary, colleagues turning against colleagues, yes ugly.
The main fallout though was that the company literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and in doing so now knew that the the pilots would never take any meaningful industrial action. Armed with that knowledge the company has acted accordingly down the years. So don't allow your seniors to tell you of previous valiant battles, it was only ever hot air with a little work to rule (contractual - zero risk - are we getting the picture, thrown in) To effect change you sometimes have to risk something. For the youngsters - that's up to you and no shame if you don't as the whole tapestry of the industry has changed and precedents have been set by your colleagues in the early 1990's.
Credit of course due to the 49ers but by then as you've read above, the company knew it could do as it pleased with just the normal sabre rattling. It was too late then and it has been ever since. At the one time when the universe was aligned in their favour, the Cathay pilots shied away and failed to engage.
Planeur
(Ex CX Kai Tak picket line)
P.S. Good luck to all CX staff in these difficult times.
Pre-dating the 49ers was the often conveniently forgotten FAU Strike of 1993. I was on the 'perfume picket line' outside company HQ at Kai Tak. The major crew industrial action that hugely impacted CX operations and very nearly brought the company to heel. At the time the pilots were also unhappy (talking of industrial action even in those days). As the strike action initially and effectively crippled operations there were rumours of the pilots belatedly joining the strike. With the pilots involved, the result would have most likely been very different. Everyone was asking: "When will the pilots join, where are they?" For their own reasons (which of course can easily be guessed) they didn't engage; the rest is history gentlemen, its that simple. The Flight Atttendants Union fought a sustained strike for weeks. The company used all the usual fear tactics to successfully divide the FAU membership eventually crushing the strike; amongst the fallout being terminations, disciplinary, colleagues turning against colleagues, yes ugly.
The main fallout though was that the company literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and in doing so now knew that the the pilots would never take any meaningful industrial action. Armed with that knowledge the company has acted accordingly down the years. So don't allow your seniors to tell you of previous valiant battles, it was only ever hot air with a little work to rule (contractual - zero risk - are we getting the picture, thrown in) To effect change you sometimes have to risk something. For the youngsters - that's up to you and no shame if you don't as the whole tapestry of the industry has changed and precedents have been set by your colleagues in the early 1990's.
Credit of course due to the 49ers but by then as you've read above, the company knew it could do as it pleased with just the normal sabre rattling. It was too late then and it has been ever since. At the one time when the universe was aligned in their favour, the Cathay pilots shied away and failed to engage.
Planeur
(Ex CX Kai Tak picket line)
P.S. Good luck to all CX staff in these difficult times.
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Originally Posted by Dragon69
Since you're obviously a new joiner let me correct and educate you. The AoA did not see the court cases to its conclusion. In fact after the membership voted in the 49er offer by the company, the AoA was obligated to suspend any further aid to the court cases. This transpired years before the conclusion of the lawsuit. It was a break away union called the CPU that funded and carried the lawsuit to its conclusion.
Furthermore, although the individuals were awarded a meagre amount, and thus seemed as a hollow victory, the favourable jurisdiction ruling in Crofts versus Veta has ended up costing the company millions indirectly as they no longer could base crews and circumnavigate labor laws as they pleased.
dragon69, sorry to burst your deluded bubble but the company always wins. Think Paris base, SHP, COS18, Oz and all thats occurred since. I can’t see any winning by anyone but the company.
You remind my of the AOA old guard who hoped for hundreds to be fired by the company so the fight was bigger. Like some pompous First World War British general. There were suicides and dozens of divorces and unimaginable hardship amongst the 49ers, how the f*ck people like you think it was a victory, though a hollow one, is beyond me.
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Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
dragon69, sorry to burst your deluded bubble but the company always wins. Think Paris base, SHP, COS18, Oz and all thats occurred since. I can’t see any winning by anyone but the company.
You remind my of the AOA old guard who hoped for hundreds to be fired by the company so the fight was bigger. Like some pompous First World War British general. There were suicides and dozens of divorces and unimaginable hardship amongst the 49ers, how the f*ck people like you think it was a victory, though a hollow one, is beyond me.
You remind my of the AOA old guard who hoped for hundreds to be fired by the company so the fight was bigger. Like some pompous First World War British general. There were suicides and dozens of divorces and unimaginable hardship amongst the 49ers, how the f*ck people like you think it was a victory, though a hollow one, is beyond me.
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Originally Posted by planeur
Ladies & Gents. Battle isn't coming. Sabre rattling isn't battle; it never was.
Pre-dating the 49ers was the often conveniently forgotten FAU Strike of 1993. I was on the 'perfume picket line' outside company HQ at Kai Tak. The major crew industrial action that hugely impacted CX operations and very nearly brought the company to heel. At the time the pilots were also unhappy (talking of industrial action even in those days). As the strike action initially and effectively crippled operations there were rumours of the pilots belatedly joining the strike. With the pilots involved, the result would have most likely been very different. Everyone was asking: "When will the pilots join, where are they?" For their own reasons (which of course can easily be guessed) they didn't engage; the rest is history gentlemen, its that simple. The Flight Atttendants Union fought a sustained strike for weeks. The company used all the usual fear tactics to successfully divide the FAU membership eventually crushing the strike; amongst the fallout being terminations, disciplinary, colleagues turning against colleagues, yes ugly.
The main fallout though was that the company literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and in doing so now knew that the the pilots would never take any meaningful industrial action. Armed with that knowledge the company has acted accordingly down the years. So don't allow your seniors to tell you of previous valiant battles, it was only ever hot air with a little work to rule (contractual - zero risk - are we getting the picture, thrown in) To effect change you sometimes have to risk something. For the youngsters - that's up to you and no shame if you don't as the whole tapestry of the industry has changed and precedents have been set by your colleagues in the early 1990's.
Credit of course due to the 49ers but by then as you've read above, the company knew it could do as it pleased with just the normal sabre rattling. It was too late then and it has been ever since. At the one time when the universe was aligned in their favour, the Cathay pilots shied away and failed to engage.
Planeur
(Ex CX Kai Tak picket line)
P.S. Good luck to all CX staff in these difficult times.
Pre-dating the 49ers was the often conveniently forgotten FAU Strike of 1993. I was on the 'perfume picket line' outside company HQ at Kai Tak. The major crew industrial action that hugely impacted CX operations and very nearly brought the company to heel. At the time the pilots were also unhappy (talking of industrial action even in those days). As the strike action initially and effectively crippled operations there were rumours of the pilots belatedly joining the strike. With the pilots involved, the result would have most likely been very different. Everyone was asking: "When will the pilots join, where are they?" For their own reasons (which of course can easily be guessed) they didn't engage; the rest is history gentlemen, its that simple. The Flight Atttendants Union fought a sustained strike for weeks. The company used all the usual fear tactics to successfully divide the FAU membership eventually crushing the strike; amongst the fallout being terminations, disciplinary, colleagues turning against colleagues, yes ugly.
The main fallout though was that the company literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and in doing so now knew that the the pilots would never take any meaningful industrial action. Armed with that knowledge the company has acted accordingly down the years. So don't allow your seniors to tell you of previous valiant battles, it was only ever hot air with a little work to rule (contractual - zero risk - are we getting the picture, thrown in) To effect change you sometimes have to risk something. For the youngsters - that's up to you and no shame if you don't as the whole tapestry of the industry has changed and precedents have been set by your colleagues in the early 1990's.
Credit of course due to the 49ers but by then as you've read above, the company knew it could do as it pleased with just the normal sabre rattling. It was too late then and it has been ever since. At the one time when the universe was aligned in their favour, the Cathay pilots shied away and failed to engage.
Planeur
(Ex CX Kai Tak picket line)
P.S. Good luck to all CX staff in these difficult times.
Talk is cheap!
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Pickuptruck, When you're done pulling the "brushwing" out of your @ss please re-read my post.
You were mocking an organization that in the end had nothing to do with the court cases, and you have been corrected.
You were spouting this great win by the company when even the company behind closed doors will admit that the whole firing was a great debacle as the consequences reverberate to this day.
If you want to continue masturbating over pictures of Cathay DFOs, GMAs, CEOS, etc that's your prerogative.
A more brainwashed spineless individual I have yet to meet.
CIAO
You were mocking an organization that in the end had nothing to do with the court cases, and you have been corrected.
You were spouting this great win by the company when even the company behind closed doors will admit that the whole firing was a great debacle as the consequences reverberate to this day.
If you want to continue masturbating over pictures of Cathay DFOs, GMAs, CEOS, etc that's your prerogative.
A more brainwashed spineless individual I have yet to meet.
CIAO
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Is it possible that in the very near future 777 and Airbus F/O's will suddenly want to upgrade on the 747?
Looks like this will be the only fleet with upgrades for a very long time..
Looks like this will be the only fleet with upgrades for a very long time..
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Originally Posted by Dragon69
Pickuptruck, When you're done pulling the "brushwing" out of your @ss please re-read my post.
You were mocking an organization that in the end had nothing to do with the court cases, and you have been corrected.
You were spouting this great win by the company when even the company behind closed doors will admit that the whole firing was a great debacle as the consequences reverberate to this day.
If you want to continue masturbating over pictures of Cathay DFOs, GMAs, CEOS, etc that's your prerogative.
A more brainwashed spineless individual I have yet to meet.
CIAO
You were mocking an organization that in the end had nothing to do with the court cases, and you have been corrected.
You were spouting this great win by the company when even the company behind closed doors will admit that the whole firing was a great debacle as the consequences reverberate to this day.
If you want to continue masturbating over pictures of Cathay DFOs, GMAs, CEOS, etc that's your prerogative.
A more brainwashed spineless individual I have yet to meet.
CIAO
Carried the lawsuit to its conclusion???????? Are you f*cking kidding me, on appeal over 98% of the amount that the company had been ordered to pay in damages was wiped.
Keep up the dribble. If you seriously view the last 3 decades as a series of repeated wins by the pilot body we are doomed.
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
Is it possible that in the very near future 777 and Airbus F/O's will suddenly want to upgrade on the 747?
Looks like this will be the only fleet with upgrades for a very long time..
Looks like this will be the only fleet with upgrades for a very long time..
Airbus command courses every month through to the end of year is the current plan. Just ask the Hello Kittys who handle this. Subject to change of course.
