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The Coming Battle

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Coming Battle

Old 7th May 2020, 01:03
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck View Post
This thread is a joke that starts with the title. The Coming Battle will be about as one sided as the US invasion of Grenada in ‘83.

Sign or leave. New COS. Really simple. Your choice.
I don’t think so at this stage, if you look at the bases, it’s more of a temporary salary exchange for time off, a furlough of sorts..

unless they can be more rigorous in Hong Kong due to lack of proper labour laws.
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Old 7th May 2020, 01:03
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 813
Pickup, from what i've been hearing, you are regretfully most likely correct. There is still a slim chance our management will step back from the brink, though unlikely. If they should go for the nuclear option, they can be certain that the unintended consequences will be grave. They may succeed in a radical transformation of the company, but they will also end up with a largely unmanageable entity that will cause them years of misery. You would have thought they learned their lesson with the 49ers. I fear they are tone deaf to their own dysfunction.
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:48
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
.... You would have thought they learned their lesson with the 49ers......
They certainly did learn a lesson. Sack 49 pilots and the next day the flights are all flown. No more go slow. No more sickness.
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Old 8th May 2020, 08:21
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
You would have thought they learned their lesson with the 49ers. I fear they are tone deaf to their own dysfunction.
They have learned very well over the years. CX pilots will not fight. I don't think you've been here long enough to understand that concept. Union groups anywhere in the world have absolutely zero negotiating power, and won't have any for the next 5 years (at least).
Open your eyes.
​​​​​​The war is over.
Game. Set. Match. Swire.
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Old 8th May 2020, 09:30
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fliegensville, Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 58
"dependant as much on whether you had pissed off somebody at the Hebe Haven Yacht Club with some imagined faux pas, or whether they plain just disliked you..or your wife. Or if somebody “liked” your wife too much. If you get my drift."

How thoroughly charming that is!!! (Yuk!!!)....and no....I DID not betray a friend whilst staying on his boat at Hebe Haven, even though his wife may have had other ideas..that sh!t is not on!
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Old 9th May 2020, 00:01
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
They certainly did learn a lesson. Sack 49 pilots and the next day the flights are all flown. No more go slow. No more sickness.
the way guys talk about the 49ers like the AOA somehow won is sad and deluded. 49 guys won a court case for lost wages of over 6 million each. That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. Company won, as it always does. Sickness went from 11% to 0.4%
Funniest part, if there was such a thing, is the AOAs own data and data from airport authority showed that a tiny amount, maybe 12% we’re actually doing MSS. All the rest were talking the talk, like AOA members always do, but keeping their heads down. Even now, 20 yrs on, guys will still swear on their mothers grave they all did MSS.........
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Old 9th May 2020, 07:53
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 325
the way guys talk about the 49ers like the AOA somehow won is sad and deluded. 49 guys won a court case for lost wages of over 6 million each. That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. Company won, as it always does. Sickness went from 11% to 0.4%
Since you're obviously a new joiner let me correct and educate you. The AoA did not see the court cases to its conclusion. In fact after the membership voted in the 49er offer by the company, the AoA was obligated to suspend any further aid to the court cases. This transpired years before the conclusion of the lawsuit. It was a break away union called the CPU that funded and carried the lawsuit to its conclusion.

Furthermore, although the individuals were awarded a meagre amount, and thus seemed as a hollow victory, the favourable jurisdiction ruling in Crofts versus Veta has ended up costing the company millions indirectly as they no longer could base crews and circumnavigate labor laws as they pleased.

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Old 9th May 2020, 09:35
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 22
[QUOTE=Pickuptruck;10776820 That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. [/QUOTE]

I’ve been following this thread with interest and my view is, if you’re going to use history as an indicator of possible future strategy and tactics, the first thing to do is take the time to educate yourself and at least get your facts straight. In the end, at the Court of Final Appeal, The 49ers each received around HKD1.2 million (some more some less) each plus around 70% of their legal costs (a major factor). Much less than the original award of ca HKD4m, admittedly, but still a sight more than the 300K “set amount” quoted earlier. In addition, the cases set legal precedents in HK & the UK which still, to this day, offer protections to employees based in these jurisdictions which previously were untested and, therefore, effectively unavailable to them.

Now to those who think they might be able to use legal avenues to redress any perceived grievances if the Swires decide simply to ignore the contract provisions and scythe through the pilots utilising their usual m.o., I say this. Firstly, you would need to be able to finance such actions up front and, secondly, are you prepared for a protracted legal battle that may take up to 5 years or more? If the answers to both these questions are yes, then very good luck to you but, finally, beware of force majeure.

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Old 10th May 2020, 02:55
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck View Post
the way guys talk about the 49ers like the AOA somehow won is sad and deluded. 49 guys won a court case for lost wages of over 6 million each. That was appealed and changed to 300k each, set amount. Company won, as it always does. Sickness went from 11% to 0.4%
Funniest part, if there was such a thing, is the AOAs own data and data from airport authority showed that a tiny amount, maybe 12% we’re actually doing MSS. All the rest were talking the talk, like AOA members always do, but keeping their heads down. Even now, 20 yrs on, guys will still swear on their mothers grave they all did MSS.........
100% true. Within a few days of MSS the company could see from the PF ERN versus sector time the level of real support MSS had and who was actually doing it. A lot of big talkers (especially at Focus Nights) and very few with the balls to walk the walk.
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:46
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: London
Posts: 8
The Coming Battle

Ladies & Gents. Battle isn't coming. Sabre rattling isn't battle; it never was.

Pre-dating the 49ers was the often conveniently forgotten FAU Strike of 1993. I was on the 'perfume picket line' outside company HQ at Kai Tak. The major crew industrial action that hugely impacted CX operations and very nearly brought the company to heel. At the time the pilots were also unhappy (talking of industrial action even in those days). As the strike action initially and effectively crippled operations there were rumours of the pilots belatedly joining the strike. With the pilots involved, the result would have most likely been very different. Everyone was asking: "When will the pilots join, where are they?" For their own reasons (which of course can easily be guessed) they didn't engage; the rest is history gentlemen, its that simple. The Flight Atttendants Union fought a sustained strike for weeks. The company used all the usual fear tactics to successfully divide the FAU membership eventually crushing the strike; amongst the fallout being terminations, disciplinary, colleagues turning against colleagues, yes ugly.

The main fallout though was that the company literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and in doing so now knew that the the pilots would never take any meaningful industrial action. Armed with that knowledge the company has acted accordingly down the years. So don't allow your seniors to tell you of previous valiant battles, it was only ever hot air with a little work to rule (contractual - zero risk - are we getting the picture, thrown in) To effect change you sometimes have to risk something. For the youngsters - that's up to you and no shame if you don't as the whole tapestry of the industry has changed and precedents have been set by your colleagues in the early 1990's.


Credit of course due to the 49ers but by then as you've read above, the company knew it could do as it pleased with just the normal sabre rattling. It was too late then and it has been ever since. At the one time when the universe was aligned in their favour, the Cathay pilots shied away and failed to engage.

Planeur
(Ex CX Kai Tak picket line)

P.S. Good luck to all CX staff in these difficult times.
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Old 11th May 2020, 23:49
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by Dragon69 View Post

Since you're obviously a new joiner let me correct and educate you. The AoA did not see the court cases to its conclusion. In fact after the membership voted in the 49er offer by the company, the AoA was obligated to suspend any further aid to the court cases. This transpired years before the conclusion of the lawsuit. It was a break away union called the CPU that funded and carried the lawsuit to its conclusion.

Furthermore, although the individuals were awarded a meagre amount, and thus seemed as a hollow victory, the favourable jurisdiction ruling in Crofts versus Veta has ended up costing the company millions indirectly as they no longer could base crews and circumnavigate labor laws as they pleased.

dragon69, sorry to burst your deluded bubble but the company always wins. Think Paris base, SHP, COS18, Oz and all thats occurred since. I can’t see any winning by anyone but the company.


You remind my of the AOA old guard who hoped for hundreds to be fired by the company so the fight was bigger. Like some pompous First World War British general. There were suicides and dozens of divorces and unimaginable hardship amongst the 49ers, how the f*ck people like you think it was a victory, though a hollow one, is beyond me.

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Old 12th May 2020, 06:14
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck View Post
dragon69, sorry to burst your deluded bubble but the company always wins. Think Paris base, SHP, COS18, Oz and all thats occurred since. I can’t see any winning by anyone but the company.

You remind my of the AOA old guard who hoped for hundreds to be fired by the company so the fight was bigger. Like some pompous First World War British general. There were suicides and dozens of divorces and unimaginable hardship amongst the 49ers, how the f*ck people like you think it was a victory, though a hollow one, is beyond me.
I seem to recall last DFO trying on getting rid of arapa, didn't work, oh and the Illy coffee was a win too!
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:19
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by planeur View Post
Ladies & Gents. Battle isn't coming. Sabre rattling isn't battle; it never was.

Pre-dating the 49ers was the often conveniently forgotten FAU Strike of 1993. I was on the 'perfume picket line' outside company HQ at Kai Tak. The major crew industrial action that hugely impacted CX operations and very nearly brought the company to heel. At the time the pilots were also unhappy (talking of industrial action even in those days). As the strike action initially and effectively crippled operations there were rumours of the pilots belatedly joining the strike. With the pilots involved, the result would have most likely been very different. Everyone was asking: "When will the pilots join, where are they?" For their own reasons (which of course can easily be guessed) they didn't engage; the rest is history gentlemen, its that simple. The Flight Atttendants Union fought a sustained strike for weeks. The company used all the usual fear tactics to successfully divide the FAU membership eventually crushing the strike; amongst the fallout being terminations, disciplinary, colleagues turning against colleagues, yes ugly.

The main fallout though was that the company literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat and in doing so now knew that the the pilots would never take any meaningful industrial action. Armed with that knowledge the company has acted accordingly down the years. So don't allow your seniors to tell you of previous valiant battles, it was only ever hot air with a little work to rule (contractual - zero risk - are we getting the picture, thrown in) To effect change you sometimes have to risk something. For the youngsters - that's up to you and no shame if you don't as the whole tapestry of the industry has changed and precedents have been set by your colleagues in the early 1990's.


Credit of course due to the 49ers but by then as you've read above, the company knew it could do as it pleased with just the normal sabre rattling. It was too late then and it has been ever since. At the one time when the universe was aligned in their favour, the Cathay pilots shied away and failed to engage.

Planeur
(Ex CX Kai Tak picket line)

P.S. Good luck to all CX staff in these difficult times.
I well remember a rousing AOA statement to the faithful at a meeting that they would down tools as soon as the first person was fired.
Talk is cheap!
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:40
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 24
What a bunch of useless individuals! Take a guess who I mean.......
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:36
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 325
Pickuptruck, When you're done pulling the "brushwing" out of your @ss please re-read my post.

You were mocking an organization that in the end had nothing to do with the court cases, and you have been corrected.

You were spouting this great win by the company when even the company behind closed doors will admit that the whole firing was a great debacle as the consequences reverberate to this day.

If you want to continue masturbating over pictures of Cathay DFOs, GMAs, CEOS, etc that's your prerogative.

A more brainwashed spineless individual I have yet to meet.

CIAO

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Old 12th May 2020, 11:47
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 18
Is it possible that in the very near future 777 and Airbus F/O's will suddenly want to upgrade on the 747?

Looks like this will be the only fleet with upgrades for a very long time..

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Old 12th May 2020, 22:24
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by Dragon69 View Post
Pickuptruck, When you're done pulling the "brushwing" out of your @ss please re-read my post.

You were mocking an organization that in the end had nothing to do with the court cases, and you have been corrected.

You were spouting this great win by the company when even the company behind closed doors will admit that the whole firing was a great debacle as the consequences reverberate to this day.

If you want to continue masturbating over pictures of Cathay DFOs, GMAs, CEOS, etc that's your prerogative.

A more brainwashed spineless individual I have yet to meet.

CIAO
If the CPU was so wonderful why did it have so little support amongst members of the AOA? Again, going on like a stuck record about all the wins the pilots have had is a joke. A few years back someone listed the number of times the company had got the better of the pilots, it was around 29 times in the last 3 decades. Vs one win for the pilots, ARAPA. Which isn't actually a win for the whole pilot body as many aren't actually on it. I'm not waxing lyrically about the company but it's a joke how you and your brethren go on about how "secretly, behind closed doors, blaa blaa blaa" the company is on the ropes. Consequences reverberate? Wtf does that even mean

Carried the lawsuit to its conclusion???????? Are you f*cking kidding me, on appeal over 98% of the amount that the company had been ordered to pay in damages was wiped.

Keep up the dribble. If you seriously view the last 3 decades as a series of repeated wins by the pilot body we are doomed.

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Old 13th May 2020, 00:57
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Is it possible that in the very near future 777 and Airbus F/O's will suddenly want to upgrade on the 747?

Looks like this will be the only fleet with upgrades for a very long time..

Airbus command courses every month through to the end of year is the current plan. Just ask the Hello Kittys who handle this. Subject to change of course.
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