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The Coming Battle

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Coming Battle

Old 11th Apr 2020, 07:08
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
Haha....even I had to laugh at that error. We'll credit that one to your account Globo . Seriously, open your eyes and listen to what Traf has to say.
My eyes are well and truly open and I’ve no doubt we’re in the kak. Just don’t need a retired, vicarious old ‘un to come on here and remind us. We’re perfectly capable of divining that for ourselves.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 07:43
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Again, you seem curiously reticent to debate the substance. Great at the off-hand ad hominem however. Traf's advice about a defensive strategy to engage the company in the coming battle seems logical and pertinent. Why don't you offer either contrary facts as to why not, and if that be the case then perhaps you could put your obviously superior english talents to use and offer an alternative. So far all you've accomplished is to sound like someone who really doesn't have much to offer on the subject, other than to try and shout down those who have taken the time to provide an informed opinion.

ps. you do seem seriously lacking in a sense of humour.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 08:07
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 1,608
I hear what people are saying about being ready for a change in conditions imposed by the management but, like Progress above, I can't see how anyone can expect to win. You have zero leverage here.

In the current state of the world agreements and contracts are being ignored, deferred, torn up in all walks of life. Sure you can sue and maybe get a "win" in 5 or 6 years (the courts are going to be full of other cases for years) but by that time your jobs will have gone for good

You'll have been replaced by other expats and locals. The whole business is going to knocked back for a long, long time
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 08:56
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Asturia. I understand your feelings of hopelessness. However, the power of will and resolute defiance is a necessary part of ones defenses. If you simply assume you have no leverage, then you are correct, you won't have any. Your adversary has already won, and you have helped them accomplish their goals for them. In any asymmetrical fight, it is necessary to adopt tactics that your adversary least expects. CX management will assume that they can bully and threaten their way to the outcome they desire. They assume we will roll over. In the case of the bases, there is really only one possible defense, and it is ironically the one that management fear most: a complete insistence on coming back to HK. That is the one outcome they have convinced themselves will not happen. Therefore, it is in fact the only option that the members can hope will result in the company backing down. The cost will be so prohibitive that it is likely the company will back down. Certainly rolling over and accepting a much reduced package will only reinforce the company's strategy. I'm open to other/better ideas.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 09:00
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Rosterabuseland
Posts: 64
Another seemingly erudite post by Traf - and yet in essence, more of the same call to arms with no consideration of leverage, position, unity or appreciation of the current situation. I wonder though, whether Traf actually did anything of substance for the betterment of his fellow pilots during his long and lucrative career in cx, or whether he was just a ranter on the forums kind of guy? Have you ever served on the GC or negotiation teams Traf? And why are we assuming that generation of pilots are so upstanding United? A number were indeed excellent role models however in my experience, the majority didn’t turn up to the party in ‘99, quit the AOA post 49’ers, took extensions screwing the command time and basing opportunities for B scalers, took CoS 08 (our last meaningful position of REAL leverage given away by the AOA), and then went into sim STC positions. So to try and belittle the younger generation of cx pilots on the basis of “moral and professional superiority” is just crass.

The only way to achieve progress is through unity - something that disappeared from the AOA years ago and is unlikely to come back anytime soon. Yes I agree with stopping the degradations, but realism is also required! Change the record Traf, it’s boring.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 09:27
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
Petrichor. The main post absolutely refers to the situation regarding leverage, position, unity and appreciation of current situation. Were you reading the same post as I ? As for "what Traf did in the past", what on earth does that have to do with the advice offered ? Are retired pilots somehow instantly disallowed to impart their knowledge, opinion and advice ? Strange position to take, but i'm guessing management approves.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 09:34
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Petrichor, you say Traf's comments are 'boring', but the views are almost 13000 since it was put up yesterday. I think that suggests that most don't find it so. I am also guessing that a good 30+ of those views are senior management at all levels. Ask me how I know
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 09:45
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 301
Humour. ah yes. Admittedly it’s a bit hard to see the humour in anything right now. It’s hardly worth debating Traf’s post as we are hardly well placed to draw a line in the sand against anything right now, although it suits Traf to tell us to go ahead. As either way it’s no skin off his nose. The company are paying us, have only asked for 3 weeks of ULV unless you personally elect for more. What leverage do you think we have, in a ravaged industry replete with laid off pilots ? If you see any let me know. And wonder how the Oz based guys feel right now, as their superior EBA that served them so well in the past also allows them to be suspended without pay. Let me know the humour you see in that. At the end of the day we have no control over the shit sandwich that’s about to descend on us. We are just passing through, so to speak. And if Traf’s post isn’t an ad hominem attack, initials et al, I don’t know what is.
Ad hominem attacks aside, and that is what United’s posts surely invite. I’ve hardly seen anything worth responding to. Telling us how great it was in the old days, how we owe our careers to trailblazing individuals such as them ; the plain fact is that we don’t. Careers that is.
There was nothing elitist, nor indeed remarkable about CX when they, or I, joined. An insular, arrogant company that had a virtual monopoly and made money despite itself. Autocratic deaf management (be guided accordingly) combined with an equally autocratic command gradient that belonged in the 60’s. In house derived LWMO procedures ( essentially single pilot IFR), a blatant disregard for manufacturers’ or indeed other airlines’ procedures ( VNAV..oh no, don’t trust that. We didn’t do that on the Convair), disregard for anti icing décréments and procedures, and a fuel policy that had us arriving in the London TMA on the vapours. That only stopped after several whistleblowing events and a retirement of MLO. A command system that had a failure rate in excess of 60% (the classic course had over 50 sectors such that you just wanted to fail half way through just to get a decent nights’ sleep). Grading as Cat B, C or D dependant as much on whether you had pissed off somebody at the Hebe Haven Yacht Club with some imagined faux pas, or whether they plain just disliked you..or your wife. Or if somebody “liked” your wife too much. If you get my drift.
So why join ? Because HKG was an exciting place, a good expatriate lifestyle could be had here, and there were more then enough good hands within the ranks to make the rest of the shit bearable. And certain individuals left very wealthy men. I digress.
With the promotion of the present LOP manager and several enlightened others, and to some extent basings, some of this began to be consigned to history. And that had [email protected] all to do with the likes of Traf nor United...just look at the standard of rhetoric.
Of course experience levels have lowered. CX is not alone in this. For United to suggest that individuals are not fit to clean the aircraft that Traf adorned, is, frankly, shameful, and if that’s the level of “informed” debate that you‘re after, well good luck. You’ll find plenty more of it courtesy of Traf and United, from the safe comfort of their respective retirements. Our whole profession has been dumbed down , with expectations of technical knowledge and ability replaced by automation. And the ever scything cut of the bean counter. And sadly we are not immune to the economic fallout from the world plunging itself back to a World War II economy. Strap in, hunker down, and enjoy the ride. One for the grandkids someday. And they, like the spikey haired millennial snowflakes, to paraphrase UBX, won’t give a shit.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 09:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: World
Posts: 10
All you retired PPRuNe warriors. I know you love giving out advice day in day out, but are you also prepared to take some? Ok here goes...

It's time to stop posting.

go out and enjoy your retirement. Seriously, close your laptops, turn off your phones and enjoy your life.

That's the best help you can give us
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 10:12
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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What office on the 3rd floor did you write that from Dsteve ? Sure, you can be certain your advice will be adhered to I think you are amply demonstrating the panic of the management regarding free speech. Do keep unveiling insights into managements mindset. It's always welcome.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 11:06
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 364
Can someone remind me why Cx mismanagement has the bases in their crosshairs?

Is it that they want to close them? Which makes no sense as they're a HUGE cost saving..

Or is it that they feel they can attack Ts and Cs on the bases whilst hanging the threat of base closure over the pilot's heads?
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 12:57
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 64
Posts: 684
Traf..it is hard to repress a certain wistful nostalgia for the erotic dimension of pedagogy.That it elicits such vitriol and bile is, however, not surprising given the level of absolute terror that permeates the organisation.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:00
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 0
Knowing the level of pilot solidarity, one option for CX is to merge CX & KA, with a wink to the HKAOA that they should push for a staple. Voila, keep the COS18, and get rid of legacy KA crew
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:20
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Globocknic. You have equaled Traf in verbosity, without any of his resilience and firm advice.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:27
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
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Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
Globocknic. You have equaled Traf in verbosity, without any of his resilience and firm advice.

Air. Go [email protected] yourself. How’s that for firm advice ?
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:31
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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And Globo, you speak of Trafs “ad hominem” attacks. At least he never mentioned someone by name (I believe he only mentioned an ideology), unlike you who attacked him directly by username. Regardless, does any pilot in this company not completely agree with the inference? How about you? You seem to have an idea as to what you believe he was referring. In that event, based on your assumption, do you think that such an individual belongs in management? Await your valuable opinion on the matter.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:38
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
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Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
And Globo, you speak of Trafs “ad hominem” attacks. At least he never mentioned someone by name (I believe he only mentioned an ideology), unlike you who attacked him directly by username. Regardless, does any pilot in this company not completely agree with the inference? How about you? You seem to have an idea as to what you believe he was referring. In that event, based on your assumption, do you think that such an individual belongs in management? Await your valuable opinion on the matter.
I have no opinion on the matter. I’ll leave that to others. I have a whole load of,frankly, more important [email protected] to worry about.
And so, I should think do a lot of others. Apart from
old retired [email protected] who should mind their own.
Good night. And good luck.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:47
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Weak reply. If you want to attack an individual that’s fine, but at least debate on fact and substance. Something you have singularly failed to do. And then you think you can just sign off. Ok. You go girl.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 13:53
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
Air. Go [email protected] yourself. How’s that for firm advice ?
Always interesting to see someone comprehensively lose the debate. I’m sure you have some medicine in the cabinet for that. 🙂
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 15:06
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 364
Oh behave you lot. For crying out loud.

Let's get back to the thrust of this thread, what Trafalgar started. He's absolutely bang on by the way. So you bedwetting snowflake insta crowd wind your necks in.

Back to my question which was lost in the bickering over the last few posts -

vvvvvvvvvvv

Can someone remind me why Cx mismanagement has the bases in their crosshairs?

Is it that they want to close them? Which makes no sense as they're a HUGE cost saving..

Or is it that they feel they can attack Ts and Cs on the bases whilst hanging the threat of base closure over the pilot's heads?
Flying Clog is offline  

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