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So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Old 17th Nov 2018, 03:54
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: I go, therefore I am there!
Posts: 181
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

878 resigned from EK last 12 months

MC, I'm going to call BS on that figure. Emirates have a current retention rate of approx 6%. Based on 4000 pilot that is about 240 per year. Still a very high number, but nowhere near the over 20% figure you quote. What does it say about Cathay, if pilots are considering leaving this mess for that one?
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 09:13
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by kenfoggo View Post
Pilots are very good at keeping their heads in the sand when viewing the conduct of Management and the future of the airline for which they work. Pilots in failing airlines stay loyal when it has become obvious to most outside observers that the end is inevitable. Lakers, British Caledonian, DanAir and a host of others worldwide were all seen to be failing and yet pilots stayed to the very end in the forlorn hope of improvement. The same is now happening at Cathay. The owners are making cuts and sucking value out of the airline , all of which are unsustainable in the long term. Obviously they are taking as much out as they can prior to sale. Whoever does eventually buy the airline will face a huge task and investment to replace the quality which has been drained away , or they will simply break up the airline. The smart pilots , the ones with their heads not in the sand , are leaving if they can.
With respect, most CX pilots are leaving or planning their escape but these things take time. DownUnder for instance has a 12 month lead in time. BA will need 6 months to process an application. So we are leaving in droves. Your remarks about Laker, BCal and DanAir are all true but in those airline examples the pilots "loved" the company and stuck it out in the hope something might turmn things around. Alas they didn't. In the case of CX most pilots loathe this outfit and will cheer when it collapses as long as they are out first.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 09:54
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

878 resigned from EK last 12 months and you all wanted to go to the roadshow.
Yeah, nah.

Cabin crew maybe, but not pilots.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 03:12
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Originally Posted by arse View Post
MC, I'm going to call BS on that figure. Emirates have a current retention rate of approx 6%. Based on 4000 pilot that is about 240 per year. Still a very high number, but nowhere near the over 20% figure you quote. What does it say about Cathay, if pilots are considering leaving this mess for that one?
The real figure is over 11% - like CX, they hide over age 50 departures as 'retirement' - so the over 11% figure is for all pilots leaving not excluding retirements.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 09:14
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero View Post
The real figure is over 11% - like CX, they hide over age 50 departures as 'retirement' - so the over 11% figure is for all pilots leaving not excluding retirements.

Good point. Well made. Comes with the inbuilt NC cache! I guess that is different to MC BS?
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 17:10
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero View Post
The real figure is over 11% - like CX, they hide over age 50 departures as 'retirement' - so the over 11% figure is for all pilots leaving not excluding retirements.
If true, 11% is not sustainable without shrinking the airline. Anecdotally, I have come to learn that FedEx will be acquiring ALL 13 of EKís 777Fs. EK is leaving the dedicated freighter market due to pilot shortage. This is not a small point because EK is the second largest cargo hauling airline in the world (behind FedEx, ahead of UPS and CX).
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 01:16
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 161
Even if the 4 month resignations at EK magnified is just a blip there is no way CX is even close. Above halfway in seniority thereís been fu*k all leave CX for contract work or DEC in Europe on piss poor pay. Whereas thereís been plenty leaving the sandpit.
T & C in most first world airlines are way sh*ttier than years past, the Qantas 787 contract in Perth is a good example. But youíre in Oz so can always go on strike......

But I agree, if you hate it so much itís not much good for your health, so leave.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 02:30
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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MC

Please tell us how far down the list you have to go before finding expat pilots on local terms. How are those turnover figures looking?

P.S. Got the results of the engagement survey yet?
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 08:40
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Morningcoffee reminds me of Baghdad Bob, for those who remember the first Gulf War. He was Saddamís propaganda minister and claimed on live tv that there were no American tanks in Iraq, as one rolled past in the background.

He was later hanged.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 09:47
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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I'm sorry, I thought you meant Robert Underdunk Terwilliger Jr, aka "Sideshow Bob"!
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 10:40
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Che Xindamail View Post
Morningcoffee reminds me of Baghdad Bob, for those who remember the first Gulf War. He was Saddamís propaganda minister and claimed on live tv that there were no American tanks in Iraq, as one rolled past in the background.

He was later hanged.

No he wasnít
He was never charged and ďretiredĒ to the UAE

Last edited by Staggers; 19th Nov 2018 at 10:50.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 09:41
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
Above halfway in seniority thereís been fu*k all leave CX for contract work or DEC in Europe on piss poor pay. Whereas thereís been plenty leaving the sandpit.
T & C in most first world airlines are way sh*ttier than years past, the Qantas 787 contract in Perth is a good example. But youíre in Oz so can always go on strike......

But I agree, if you hate it so much itís not much good for your health, so leave.
Not many B scalers leaving KA either. A few C scale but basically its moan moan, thanks for the dollar dollar.


Cant have everything right?

And the recent members overwhealming vote against industrial action proves that it aint all that bad at The Cathay Dragon.

99% of wingers on here are CX, and no doubt live in DB
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 11:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Did you mean 99% "Swingers" live in DB?
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 13:15
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by Staggers View Post



No he wasnít
He was never charged and ďretiredĒ to the UAE
Absolutely right.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 15:07
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Originally Posted by Babbalito View Post
MC

Please tell us how far down the list you have to go before finding expat pilots on local terms. How are those turnover figures looking?

P.S. Got the results of the engagement survey yet?
Anyone who was 1500 in seniority back in say 2007 has moved up the list same speed now as then. Even an idiot can see a lot of the experienced guys aren't leaving. Though they constantly stand around at dispatch bitching about how they're just about to go, and never do. B scale captain turnover has been tiny. Every contract job out there I've seen has been worse than staying put and commuting on COS18.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 15:37
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
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Do you feel better now MC? Plenty if experienced pilots leaving. There is a tsunami of resignations building, but you and your fellow management cretins can continue to pretend all is fine. Good luck with that.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 23:31
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
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I know. Our mouths speaks louder than our testicles?
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 00:54
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
Anyone who was 1500 in seniority back in say 2007 has moved up the list same speed now as then. Even an idiot can see a lot of the experienced guys aren't leaving. Though they constantly stand around at dispatch bitching about how they're just about to go, and never do. B scale captain turnover has been tiny. Every contract job out there I've seen has been worse than staying put and commuting on COS18.
And the answer to my question MC?
Perhaps we can infer from your comment that there is a significant, and increasingly unmanageable, turnover of pilots who joined after 2007. Few will have attained the rank of captain so the losses will be coming from the pool of future commanders. With the demographics of the pilot community as they are, I suspect there is trouble brewing. The situation at KA is slightly different in that the sh!t sandwich local terms was served up in 2012. I would bet that the turnover there is much higher in that group and that some captains have also departed. CoS 18 will accelerate the process. The apparent turnover at HKE should serve as a warning but when did CX/KA ever heed a warning or think it could learn from others?
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 01:01
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 525
Commuting ??

Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
Anyone who was 1500 in seniority back in say 2007 has moved up the list same speed now as then. Even an idiot can see a lot of the experienced guys aren't leaving. Though they constantly stand around at dispatch bitching about how they're just about to go, and never do. B scale captain turnover has been tiny. Every contract job out there I've seen has been worse than staying put and commuting on COS18.
Commuting on COS18, surely you're joking? Without ANY rostering request input (i.e. no bid module) rostering is a pie in the sky dream and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

What kills me about this place is the apathy. Everybody talks about leaving when what it really takes for change is boldness and staying put.. That said, apathetic crew members sit around and moan; oh poor me - but what ya gonna do.....???

You make or have made your own bed - now lay in it and enjoy the bed bugs.

Me, I'm history very soon...
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 01:33
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 144
Anyone who was 1500 in seniority back in say 2007 has moved up the list same speed now as then.
By that logic then, a 6% resignation rate across the board (not retirement) applied only to the demographic that is leaving (the bottom1/3 of the seniority list) would make for a 18% turnover for the newer employment packages. Sounds about right.
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