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So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Old 5th Dec 2018, 02:31
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee

Going off the starting pay at jetstar on the 320 after a newbie had survived GA, they could borrow $460k on a 30 year. That would get them a 1 br apt in Melbourne.
Almost.

Every man and his dog is getting off the AirNZ shortHAUL fleet, meanwhile CX pilots quit to sign up on the 320 in droves.

Still waiting to hear a good paying, reasonable days off flying job.


MC, a few posts ago you claimed that in Melbourne “under a million buys you sweet fu*k all”. This highlights your elitist arrogant management view of the world. I’m guessing you view “Melbourne” as south of the Yarra in the leafy Eastern suburbs or inner city along the bay. In fact average asking prices for Melbourne houses is $963,200 and units $555,800 (source. “The Australian” 4/12/18)

Within a daily commuting distance of Melbourne Airport are some lovely towns where for your $460k you can purchase a 3 bedroom house, lock up garage where you can keep your car to drive yourself to work, alongside it is your boat, motorbike, golf clubs and the kids bicycles which they use to ride themselves to their free school that required no interview, no debenture and no waiting list. Out the back is the pool and bbq in a landscaped setting with the veggie patch and fruit trees while out the front the Mrs has her roses.
Sure, your jetstar pilot may not get as many days off in a month (mind you, don’t forget he’s accumulating long service leave) as your average Cathay SO/FO, but what’s the point in days off when you’re staring at the 4 walls of your rented Tung Chung shoe box listening to construction noises breathing in Chinese pollution watching your Mrs and kids slowly going mad?

There’s other secondary factors to also consider rather than the standard “money, lifestyle and days off”. Working in a country with first world labor laws, on an enforceable detailed contract rather than amendable company policy, working for an airline that promotes a “Heath and Wellness Program” rather than enforces a “Sickness and Absent Management Program”, or an airline that has never sacked 49 of its pilots for no better reason than to show the remaining pilots that it can.

Here’s the thing MC. Neither you nor I or even Cathay management get to decide what a market competitive employment package looks like. The market decides.
So I’ll ask you for the third time. If the employment package that CX offer is market competitive, why are the pilots who are leaving for other airlines not being replaced in equal number by pilots leaving those airlines for CX?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:31
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee

Every man and his dog is getting off the AirNZ shortHAUL fleet, meanwhile CX pilots quit to sign up on the 320 in droves.
Precisely MC. What does that tell you?
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 13:23
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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So will someone tell us exactly when all these pilots are going to leave and CX will be unable to operate?

Sounds like engineers at Saudi Aramco to me - 30 years of moaning and bitching but they still stay in the sand-pit because TBH the money & conditions are still better than they'd get elsewhere......................
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 05:38
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Already happening Astrias - 120+/- in the 1st quarter of 2018, consistently approx 6-10pm thereafter with another 40 having just handed their notice in Oct due to leave in Jan. The numbers are staggering considering historically you only left CX via retirement or medical. I'm told (2nd hand so take that as you like) - that they are not counting the "over 50's" in the resignation count but placing them into the "early retirements" category. As to when CX will stop - never - they would rather operate 1 aircraft losing money than accept the position they face - denial denial denial. Cannot lose face!
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 06:32
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Several more just given confirmation of their course dates with Virgin Atlantic. Met one on Thursday, and he can't wait to get to Vr out of HK in the next few weeks.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 06:45
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Odd that when VR pilots are proposing action over non recognition of union representation.
frying pan - fire?
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 06:50
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Originally Posted by Staggers
Odd that when VR pilots are proposing action over non recognition of union representation.
frying pan - fire?
Only some will strike. This is to force VS management to recognise a second union group in negotiations. With A350's and more 787's arriving VS will snap up type rated pilots.

VS to use CX A350 sim from mext week for conversions.

CX running out of steam. Out of 3x 777 sims there is only 1x 4 hour session rostered for 25th. How's that for utilisation ?

Last edited by unitedabx; 8th Dec 2018 at 06:55. Reason: addition
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 21:52
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Originally Posted by unitedabx
Only some will strike. This is to force VS management to recognise a second union group in negotiations. With A350's and more 787's arriving VS will snap up type rated pilots.

VS to use CX A350 sim from mext week for conversions.

CX running out of steam. Out of 3x 777 sims there is only 1x 4 hour session rostered for 25th. How's that for utilisation ?
So you want as many crew as possible rostered a sim duty on Christmas day? Because that gives you something to bitch about?
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 01:01
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morningcoffee you are a f3@kwit, just piss off
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 04:36
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee
So you want as many crew as possible rostered a sim duty on Christmas day? Because that gives you something to bitch about?
NO MC. I want the entire 25th free of sim duties for all and the F****wit who rostered it made to come into work that day and sit around and do nothing. Are you DOM that day ? Thought not.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 04:43
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Originally Posted by Slasher1
Try just about any US major. Including LCCs like Spirit (who will pay better than Capt's on on POS 18 -- while living in relatively low cost areas of the US).
No clue what you guys are making, but:
5 years at Spirit, upgraded 2 years ago.
Before tax around $200K
Full control of my schedule, have had xmas and new year off even as a new captain.
work around 15 days a month, mostly 4 on 4 off (by choice), most of those are 1 or 2 leg nights (by choice, for easier commute)..
2 week vacation, good medical, LTD, retirement.
Also we are just about the worst paid in the USA....
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 06:24
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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MorningCoffee....the management gift that just keeps on giving. I hope you stick around for MANY years.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 23:32
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Originally Posted by unitedabx

CX running out of steam. Out of 3x 777 sims there is only 1x 4 hour session rostered for 25th. How's that for utilisation ?
Is what you said. Lots to bitch about at CX, foaming at the mouth over a couple of Xmas rostered duties isnít too smart.

Plenty of LCC do their sims on G days.....
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 01:06
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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MC, not in Hong Kong they don't. The same AFTL's that apply to us apply to them. If you're comparing us to the likes of Lion Air? Well there's reason why the LCC's in Asia have so many accidents and incidents.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 04:07
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MC, you are an insufferable fool. The only employees who should HAVE to work over Christmas are those operating the aircraft and necessary ground support functions. There is NO excuse to roster ground duties (simulators, classroom events) over important family holidays such as Christmas, NY or Thanksgiving (for Americans). The company just proves their complete absence of due care and concern for their employees when they continue to violate that common courtesy and responsibility towards the welfare of their employees and their families. Management like yourself are the reason this airline is in such trouble. You go ahead however and continue to suggest we are the problem, while meanwhile Rome burns around you. Pathetic.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 22:08
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole
MC, you are an insufferable fool. The only employees who should HAVE to work over Christmas are those operating the aircraft and necessary ground support functions. There is NO excuse to roster ground duties (simulators, classroom events) over important family holidays such as Christmas, NY or Thanksgiving (for Americans). The company just proves their complete absence of due care and concern for their employees when they continue to violate that common courtesy and responsibility towards the welfare of their employees and their families. Management like yourself are the reason this airline is in such trouble. You go ahead however and continue to suggest we are the problem, while meanwhile Rome burns around you. Pathetic.
If you had the capacity you'd read the post and see that your best buddy Unitedabix was complaining about underutilisation of the sims and had picked the 25th Dec to illustrate how inefficient this was. So which is it??????? The company is inefficient, just look at Christmas or it shouldn't roster on the 25th because it's Christmas.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 23:00
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MC , I take your point on this one issue , but in general you remind me of Nancy Pelosi , if you aren’t aware of who she is look up some of her utterances. I would just like to know how many management pilots or staff are operating on Christmas Day and Boxing Day .
i would venture a guess at a big fat zero , because spending time with your family is important and of course you deserve it because 8-5 5 days a week excluding public holidays is monstrously tiring .
The main issue that I see with you and your cubical cronies is that you all seem to be blissfully unaware that there is a huge problem with the moral of the pilots which gets progressively worse with each insult from the CEO . Sooner or later the numbers heading for the exit door will cripple the operation . Maybe not in the next few months but it is getting worse .
Personally I would like the entire pilot workforce to stop work tomorrow , have Christmas and New Year off . It’s getting to the state that I really don’t care if I’m employed by Cathay or not . The job isn’t what it used to be , so if I lost it so be it . At least I would have gone down fighting instead of waiting to be run over again and again. Or become like the dog cowering in the corner trembling in anticipation of the next beating .
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 02:34
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Originally Posted by Tea time
Sooner or later the numbers heading for the exit door will cripple the operation . Maybe not in the next few months but it is getting worse .
if only that was true, the reality is if a ''mass exodus' was going to happen it already would of. Pilots didn't leave in large numbers when RPs were terminated nor did they leave when the company threatened to terminate ARAPA. Pilots didn't leave when the company didn't pay 13th month. Now the company is paying 13th month and close to reaching an agreement with the AOA, at least over ARAPA.
Those aiming to leave in Jan once they secured their 13th month would already have resigned.

So when is this mass exodus going to happen again?
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 04:34
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I think the Company has just decided that it will make the airline smaller to fit its pilot force. One of the primary advantages of the current, weak balance sheet is that many more aircraft are leased than in times past. If CX canít crew airplanes, theyíll just send them back to the leasing companies. Market share goes to competitors, but who cares? Thatís the next Swire managerís problem. No long term planning at CX, just treading water. This management team really is a dogís breakfast.

Ask yourself, is ANY airline head-hunting CX execs because theyíre so brilliant? Thatís what I thought. No one in their right mind would want these clowns. Swires exist in an alternate universe where Daddyís colonial money insulates them from reality.
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 19:46
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Gents I cannot help but comment on what appears to be target fixation. You have to work Christmas day, whether in an actual cockpit or a sim. Happens to many of us. I guess there may be some justification if this is a change to a past schedule where the sim was stood down for Christmas. If it is, than a justifiable whinge if not then ??????
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