Amazing Opportunity within Employee Experience Department
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None of my business of course just a surfing Ppruner but never like to see an airline with unhappy flight decks.
Reading that ad for the 'people department -sic'-easy to see why CX is in trouble if they advertise a serious role with that garbage. It is an airline-a (potentially ) deadly serious business and you write a job spec like you are recruiting for an app development startup focussed on teenage girl fashions or party planning
Reading that ad for the 'people department -sic'-easy to see why CX is in trouble if they advertise a serious role with that garbage. It is an airline-a (potentially ) deadly serious business and you write a job spec like you are recruiting for an app development startup focussed on teenage girl fashions or party planning
Yes NK, your nuclear weapons are making you SAFER! Yes CX, plainly inexperienced and unqualified flight crews are making us SAFER! Let’s put two of them on four-man longhauls. That will really help the bottom line vs utilizing a JFO, thereby ensuring CX’s financial security. Meanwhile, our competitors use 2 captains and 2 first officers. You really couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried.
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It's even worse than that. Even many of our FO's are deficient in handling/thinking skills (and i'm not saying all of them. If you are one of the 'good ones', then don't resent my observation as it's based on my own experience of what I witness). I have had flights where you have two inexperienced SO's and a questionable FO. I am not here to condemn the individuals, but a company and it's management that feels it's appropriate to operate large airliners with the majority of pilots on the crew consisting of individuals with low, or minimum 'experience' (in fact, a newly checked out SO really has NO experience). Very comforting to think that they are sitting there completely alone when the other pilot takes a toilet break ! Especially when that same SO doesn't even know his QRH memory items in the event of emergency. I suggest that there is a very large hole in the swiss cheese, a hole big enough to fly an airliner through...right into the ground. The public deserve better, but the powers-that-be (our management and a feckless CAD regulator) seem to suggest that a reputation doesn't have to be backed up with substance. The inevitable will result, and the managers responsible will be held to account. If some of you don't like what i've just posted, no regrets, the truth is what it is (and has been carefully documented). CX has fallen a long way from what they were in the 90's, and they are still falling. Greed, ignorance and arrogance. All the qualities of our management being manifested in the above facts. Read and weep.
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Trafalgar
So they were your responsibility then as you were a "trainer and checker" until recently. Did you fail or request extra training for any of your trainees or just pass the buck, you talk the talk but do not seem to walk the walk. Were you 'Old school' where you trained by checking?
many of our FO's are deficient in handling/thinking skills
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Hmmm, so you would rather attack the messenger. Management potential. Your reply seems a little 'over sensitive' to the topic....interesting. Not quite sure how you know what I did or did not do. Needless to say, I can hardly lay out chapter and verse on this forum. You might want to check your spelling and grammar also.
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Dumb post Ice! How can Traf be responsible for any subpar FO? Maybe he did his best to train them, get them extra sectors, etc. Maybe he did fail those that deserved it, and then Santa Claus came afterwards. I’d recommend a stiff cup of STFU for you Iceman, at least until you sleep it off.
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cxorcist
"Traf" continually complains about Junior pilots but takes no responsibility, after all he was such a sterling member of C&T. What, no one listened to him when he thought a pilot was not up to standard?
As to STFU perhaps you and "Traf" could consider that option.
Trafalgar
The usual retort when being called out.
"Traf" continually complains about Junior pilots but takes no responsibility, after all he was such a sterling member of C&T. What, no one listened to him when he thought a pilot was not up to standard?
As to STFU perhaps you and "Traf" could consider that option.Trafalgar
...and before anyone comments, I am no longer in training. I had to wait a 'defined period of time' before stating this so as to not give our wonderful management SS members a possibility of identifying me accordingly.
You might want to check your spelling and grammar also.
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Being a bit of a jackass no ?
CnT's at CX have been for 15 years minimum raising concerns about the decreasing standards and abilities they observe every day of the week.
This is not new, I know many of them and they, among trainers at every level, are as frustrated a bunch as you have ever met.
Many still try, many have resigned in total frustration and many still fight on and do the best they can however, scuttlebutt indicates this may be coming to an end.
The real issue here is the upper level cowards (sycophants) they now call "leadership". They are 100% aware of this phenomenon and have (some only to eagerly) bent over and accepted the dictates of Swire pilot managers (leaders) and their accompanying spreadsheet geeks.
The concerns of the CnT's have been summarily ignored by the sheep on the 3rd floor and we now have the situation we have.
The list of those who have enabled this is is very long. The past and current GMF's come to mind , GL the Boeing hero and his GMO bud, RH (say no more), Airbus Training "leader" DH (say no more and gone thank God) and near the top would be AW, CC and a sprinkle of ex GMA's etc,etc.etc.
All this has led CX to where it is now and if you want the worst scare of your life, simply take a look at what/who "operation altitude" has placed in the top training positions as it sits now (think PC) and don't forget to include DFO at the top. From this current situation, you can bet your bottom dollar that it aint over yet..
If you compare the standards/experience levels of 25 years ago to those deployed in our cockpits today, you should rightfully shudder in dismay at the discovery. And as well, make absolutely no mistake about it, this has for the entire time been 100% engineered by our "Senior (Swire) Leadership", enabled by the 3'rd floor sheep and overseen by an emasculated and ineffective bordering incompetent CAD.
That which you knew 25 years ago is long over.
CnT's at CX have been for 15 years minimum raising concerns about the decreasing standards and abilities they observe every day of the week.
This is not new, I know many of them and they, among trainers at every level, are as frustrated a bunch as you have ever met.
Many still try, many have resigned in total frustration and many still fight on and do the best they can however, scuttlebutt indicates this may be coming to an end.
The real issue here is the upper level cowards (sycophants) they now call "leadership". They are 100% aware of this phenomenon and have (some only to eagerly) bent over and accepted the dictates of Swire pilot managers (leaders) and their accompanying spreadsheet geeks.
The concerns of the CnT's have been summarily ignored by the sheep on the 3rd floor and we now have the situation we have.
The list of those who have enabled this is is very long. The past and current GMF's come to mind , GL the Boeing hero and his GMO bud, RH (say no more), Airbus Training "leader" DH (say no more and gone thank God) and near the top would be AW, CC and a sprinkle of ex GMA's etc,etc.etc.
All this has led CX to where it is now and if you want the worst scare of your life, simply take a look at what/who "operation altitude" has placed in the top training positions as it sits now (think PC) and don't forget to include DFO at the top. From this current situation, you can bet your bottom dollar that it aint over yet..
If you compare the standards/experience levels of 25 years ago to those deployed in our cockpits today, you should rightfully shudder in dismay at the discovery. And as well, make absolutely no mistake about it, this has for the entire time been 100% engineered by our "Senior (Swire) Leadership", enabled by the 3'rd floor sheep and overseen by an emasculated and ineffective bordering incompetent CAD.
That which you knew 25 years ago is long over.
Last edited by Flex88; 4th Jan 2018 at 13:57.
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Iceman. Again, no comment on the substance of my allegations? As I mentioned, you have utterly-no-idea-of-what-I-have-or-have-not-done as it pertains to any situation I may have encountered. I'm one person, not the whole training department. The fault lies with management, but you go ahead and have a go at me. That's the 'usual retort' when one can't take responsibility for the facts.
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Very well put Flex. I would take issue with only one small but important point: In your third paragraph, you say that in regard to the cowards (sycophants) WE now call leadership, I am confident that,that minor slip up should read that THEY call leadership.
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.....six months with a freighter roster will make them wish they had never heard of CX. And seriously, that is how we communicate as a company now? Talk about the sound of desperation. "Come on in", "We are Cathay Pacific". 
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Exactly CR
The T&C's & more overtly their "leaders" have, over the years, enabled the whole policy to unfold and they know it...
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True - but the data appears to show it doesn't matter (commercial aviation continues to get safer and safer) And where it is (relatively) less safe (sub saharan Africa) the causation doesn't look to be pilot experience (or lack of)
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Naive at best Freehills. It is logical to expect that the industry gets 'safer', due to improvements in equipment, safety systems and atc advances. That is to be expected (and the only thing the bean-counters can see). That result is mainly due to the fact that most flights are uneventful. The real problem occurs when something goes wrong, then you have a sudden conflation of both inexperience and lack of basic flying skills combining to produce a lethal outcome. There may be 'less' overall incidents, but more likelihood of a bad outcome when events turn for the worse. Of course, CX management is happy to play those odds, hoping the traveling public remain ignorant of the festering risk to their lives.
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Naive at best Freehills. It is likely the industry gets 'safer', due to improvements in equipment, safety systems and atc advances. That is to be expected (and the only thing the bean-counters can see). That result is mainly due to the fact that most flights are uneventful. The real problem occurs when something goes wrong; then you have a sudden conflation of both inexperience and lack of basic flying skills combining to produce a lethal outcome. There may be 'less' overall incidents, but more likelihood of a bad outcome when events turn for the worse. Of course, CX management is happy to play those odds, hoping the traveling public remain ignorant of the festering risk to their lives. Meanwhile, they congratulate each other and award themselves bigger pay packets and bonuses.
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Look at the Air France airbus crash , an inexperienced FO had no idea what to do when confronted with unreliable airspeed or how to recover from a stall. It only took a few minutes to drop from FL330 into the ocean killing everyone on board .
Incompetence perhaps, a lack of training definitely played a part , maybe he was marginal on his checks but given the benefit of the doubt . We will never know ,but take the same situation with a newly checked out SO crewed together with a marginal FO who happens to be in the toilet when the situation occurs .
We will all be watching it unfold on Air accident investigation because it will be a similar outcome . I don’t blame the trainers , many of them have voiced concerns about the level of experience only to have their concerns dismissed by management .
Experience is the key and experience is gained by thousands of hours in the cockpit . Most of the older captains started their careers in fast jets or flying charter aircraft sometimes in shocking weather . We learnt from our mistakes as we went along but we all learnt to fly by the seat of our pants . I started out crop spraying Ask a newbie today how to accomplish a stall turn , more than likely you would only get a blank stare. The new breed of pilot starts flying a jet as an SO and as a consequence misses out on that Vital stick and rudder basic training . It’s not their fault it’s just how it is today , but that vital element that is missing becomes apparent in unusual or unexpected situations outside the QRH
Incompetence perhaps, a lack of training definitely played a part , maybe he was marginal on his checks but given the benefit of the doubt . We will never know ,but take the same situation with a newly checked out SO crewed together with a marginal FO who happens to be in the toilet when the situation occurs .
We will all be watching it unfold on Air accident investigation because it will be a similar outcome . I don’t blame the trainers , many of them have voiced concerns about the level of experience only to have their concerns dismissed by management .
Experience is the key and experience is gained by thousands of hours in the cockpit . Most of the older captains started their careers in fast jets or flying charter aircraft sometimes in shocking weather . We learnt from our mistakes as we went along but we all learnt to fly by the seat of our pants . I started out crop spraying Ask a newbie today how to accomplish a stall turn , more than likely you would only get a blank stare. The new breed of pilot starts flying a jet as an SO and as a consequence misses out on that Vital stick and rudder basic training . It’s not their fault it’s just how it is today , but that vital element that is missing becomes apparent in unusual or unexpected situations outside the QRH
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JB
"The new breed of pilot starts flying a jet as an SO and as a consequence misses out on that Vital stick and rudder basic training . It’s not their fault it’s just how it is today"
Well said JB however a key bit of critical info is missing in your missive. To say "it's just how it is today" misses out on the why it is this way today. That missing bit is the reason and it falls directly into the lap of corporate boards and senior airline "leadership" with our current DFO being a perfect example.
You drive a Flight Ops department in a top down budget driven manner with no regard to the expertise of the people who operate the equipment and this is what you get. How many modern aircraft have fallen out of the sky in the last 10 years, why ?
It was getting bad in the US, for the same reasons, and the government finally had to intervene, dictate and enforce minimum standards of experience and qualifications on any aircraft over 5700 Kg.
In Asia - every regulator ineptly looks the other way at these sorts of (costly) standards and we (including right here in HK)can have a brand new FO in a brand new shiny Heavy Widebody aircraft with little over 100 hrs TOTAL time (solo time not necessarily required).
This situation is 100% about cost. A cost airlines are not willing to pay - just look around. Uber pilots on the way and why bother with those nasty expensive things called experience and training.
Well said JB however a key bit of critical info is missing in your missive. To say "it's just how it is today" misses out on the why it is this way today. That missing bit is the reason and it falls directly into the lap of corporate boards and senior airline "leadership" with our current DFO being a perfect example.
You drive a Flight Ops department in a top down budget driven manner with no regard to the expertise of the people who operate the equipment and this is what you get. How many modern aircraft have fallen out of the sky in the last 10 years, why ?
It was getting bad in the US, for the same reasons, and the government finally had to intervene, dictate and enforce minimum standards of experience and qualifications on any aircraft over 5700 Kg.
In Asia - every regulator ineptly looks the other way at these sorts of (costly) standards and we (including right here in HK)can have a brand new FO in a brand new shiny Heavy Widebody aircraft with little over 100 hrs TOTAL time (solo time not necessarily required).
This situation is 100% about cost. A cost airlines are not willing to pay - just look around. Uber pilots on the way and why bother with those nasty expensive things called experience and training.
Last edited by Flex88; 8th Jan 2018 at 18:30.
