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So no 13 th month for Captains

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So no 13 th month for Captains

Old 8th Dec 2017, 04:24
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 154
2 hours ago on Yammar Tom Owen ( director of personnel ) tried to explain his rationale for not giving captains a 13th month.
What a sad reflection on this company and this director. The man is totally deluded and in one fell swoop has alienated arguably the most important single group in the company. He has completely missed the concept that an airline needs aircraft, aircraft need pilots and pilots need CAPTAINS.
In any other industry such rationale might be tolerable ( few but some ) but not in aviation as he and the company at large will soon find out. We will see how popular he is with his ground staff and office workers when he is forced to lay them off because the planes aren't flying because the Captains didn't show up.
Fo's and So's can sit back, spend your 35K and enjoy Xmas. You won't be working much.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 04:43
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Lets look at it logically from what I perceive is the reason why management decided to have no 13th month for Captains. Its all to try and push A and B scale captains out of the company if the can.

Firstly, it takes 10 years plus for Command. The ones on A scale and B scale are will into their 40's - 60's. So the chances of them moving to another company due seniority is not that high so they are kind of stuck between a rock and hard place.

In saying that the ones that do pick up and leave to go somewhere else, is only a benefit to the company in regards to monetary compensation compared to a C scale. The only "talent" the company will want to hold onto are the ones that can do check and training, and Dragonair can help in this department if need be.

Lets say X amount of Captain leaves, they need to be replaced, therefore time to command is reduced significantly, which will tempt new DEFO's, as I'm yet to hear "Oh 10-12 years to command! Where do I sign?" Most will walk out of the interview knowing other Asian and ME carriers are doing it in about 4 years.

Going back to Dragonair, I believe CX is going to absorb them into their AOC and therefore leaving a spare AOC. With 20+ new A320's ordered this might be for Cathay to launch a new low cost carrier.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 04:56
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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They cant even launch an EFB.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 05:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
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what will the fau do if all ism don't get 13th month?
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 05:49
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Jnr380

And who would train their replacements? I don't think there will be a training department worthy of the name in a few weeks time. I have spoken to three trainers this morning, all of whom are handing in their resignations. They tell me they also know of several more that are planning on the same. The company has slapped them in the face one time too many. None of them want to have to face their colleagues under these circumstances, and certainly none of them want to be party to their own demise. I suspect that the majority of C and T's are now done with this farce.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 07:11
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
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Gentlemen,

I do understand the sentiments, aviation is the same the world over, after all the cockroaches all infest the same IATA conferences.

  • Collective action they expect.
  • individual emotional responses they expect.
The adversary is well resourced but ultimately not agile. Their modelling is programmed to accept known inputs of both the emotional and collective kind.


I would ask those well versed in the finances of your adversary just what the cash flow looks like. My hunch is that a lot of the year's yield is built in the next few months. You must therefore target cash flow and be prepared to do so for an extended period. An unreliable schedule and individual actions that are not predictable are key to achieving leverage. Their model is not equipped for it, nor is the cash flow resilient enough.



In attacking emotionally their superior armament will cut you to pieces. In attacking collectively their superior tool set will do the same.


A slow process of undermining schedule, hurting the 'things they count' is the only way they notice the err of their ways.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 07:30
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Age: 63
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Originally Posted by checklistcomplete View Post
2 hours ago on Yammar Tom Owen ( director of personnel ) tried to explain his rationale for not giving captains a 13th month.
What a sad reflection on this company and this director. The man is totally deluded and in one fell swoop has alienated arguably the most important single group in the company. He has completely missed the concept that an airline needs aircraft, aircraft need pilots and pilots need CAPTAINS.
In any other industry such rationale might be tolerable ( few but some ) but not in aviation as he and the company at large will soon find out. We will see how popular he is with his ground staff and office workers when he is forced to lay them off because the planes aren't flying because the Captains didn't show up.
Fo's and So's can sit back, spend your 35K and enjoy Xmas. You won't be working much.
Tom Owen (manager) getting slammed on Yammer
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 13:03
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Rated De

Let's fight a guerrilla warfare!! Be unpredictable. Mao Tse tung did that. Ho Chi Minh, too!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 13:45
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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I do so love the roar of TOGA Take-offs and full reverse on landing (gives me a 5 minute warm down before contemplating RETI). Wonder what that will cost them?
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 16:59
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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, whilst I also like max thrust for TO it's too easy to monitor .
Think more in terms of missed approaches , if not stabilised then execute a missed approach . If every Capt did just one missed approach per month, well you do the fuel maths . Get your thinking caps on, you collectively need to make a statement but it has to make an impact to be heard. It's time to push Back hard to demonstrate that there is a cost of goodwill. .
Sadly I suspect that there is a small group with enough backbone to do something effective , the rest will simply carry on as usual bitching and moaning but not prepared to be a part of the solution .

Last edited by joblow; 8th Dec 2017 at 18:47.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 17:51
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Iíd like to see the union write to the 10 most junior TCs and the most junior STC and ask them to resign from training/step down from STC to TC on the 21st of December and to repeat this every month until the company sit down and negotiate in good faith after reinstating the RPs they stole 2 years ago. When they start negotiating and the NC report back that they really do seem to be negotiating in good faith, the resignations stop. When a TA is approved by the membership covering ALL aspects of our employment then the TB and CC will stop.

Letís face it the most junior TCs all signed up for training very close to the red zone, using the excuse that there was no official ban in place at the time. The union also need to make it crystal clear that the ban will remain in effect until all the trainers who have resigned in the the last 3 years have been offered their training jobs back.

Itís time for our union to occupy the driving seat.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 18:49
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I hate to say it but if TC's resigned there would be some opportunist who would take the vacated position .
It's time for the AOA to get serious and punish offenders appropriately
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 20:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mothy1583 View Post
I do so love the roar of TOGA Take-offs and full reverse on landing (gives me a 5 minute warm down before contemplating RETI). Wonder what that will cost them?
Umm, Mothy. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you miss the bigger point. I like the silence of an airplane parked. No takeoff, no landing. The 'Sounds of Silence'. Great song. Itunes. (and I wonder what THAT will cost them...).
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 20:10
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by joblow View Post
I hate to say it but if TC's resigned there would be some opportunist who would take the vacated position .
It's time for the AOA to get serious and punish offenders appropriately
There already are vacant positions that aren't being filled
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 20:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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No one is going to violate the training ban (there might be one or two completely worthless and eternally ostracized individuals at most). As more and more resign, this will create an ungovernable crisis for the company. To not pay us the 13th month was bad enough. To then discriminate exclusively against the Captains was a contemptible slap too far. The company deserves all the push back that will generate. I resigned, and many of my colleagues are about to do so as well. All for the sake of not paying something that we were entitled to in the first place. Penny wise...pound foolish. CX management writ large. (and now we look forward to another year of stress and uncertainty regarding our homes. Genius, every one of them. The worlds most amazing management, worth every penny )
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 00:10
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bouvet Island
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Get it BACK.

With enough pressure in the right places, we can get it back. 13th month gone is NOT a foregone conclusion. They can and will come running if we all, AOA included, grows up. AOA reminds me of the leprous old man in "Braveheart." Lands and Title, get your lands and title. And meanwhile, character and worth is flushed. Cmon AOA. We're going to do our part, you do yours.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 00:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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plainpilot11
You are dreaming if you think this weak and ineffective union is going to do anything. It leads from behind and is now obsolete.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 00:18
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
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THIS December is already here, and I want my 13th month.... (and if it's not forthcoming, it will cost. BIG).
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 02:14
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by joblow View Post
, whilst I also like max thrust for TO it's too easy to monitor .
Think more in terms of missed approaches , if not stabilised then execute a missed approach . If every Capt did just one missed approach per month, well you do the fuel maths . Get your thinking caps on, you collectively need to make a statement but it has to make an impact to be heard. It's time to push Back hard to demonstrate that there is a cost of goodwill. .
Sadly I suspect that there is a small group with enough backbone to do something effective , the rest will simply carry on as usual bitching and moaning but not prepared to be a part of the solution .

Spoken like a true FO! Go arounds attract direct unwanted scrutiny, if you allow too many then you are not a worthy captain and something will be done. So itís about playing smart joblow, extra gas every sector, stay low (FL280 below the jet coming back from Japan), full rev, no reti, no directs, OTP completely out the window if thereís any MEL because you need time to fully analyse the implications......they will see a direct increased cost attributed to their actions when next monthís costs are discussed at their round table! what we donít need is for captains to sacrifice themselves by doing G/Aís.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 03:22
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: hongkong
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That months pay equates to 70 hours assuming 900 flown .... itís an easy deduction... 830 hours flown for D level crews...about 3 weeks worth of not turning up.

Last edited by BlunderBus; 9th Dec 2017 at 06:44.
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