13th Month
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Talked to some of the 600. They are saying that once the shock had gone, the feeling is that they had probably stayed at CX too long, and the world outside is an interesting place. Obviously cushioned by reasonable severance pay.
I think if crew were offered the same terms, there would be a queue forming asking to be fired...
I think if crew were offered the same terms, there would be a queue forming asking to be fired...
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The jungle telegraph tells me that many crew are waiting to see what the company does on this issue. If they want a massive 'absence' of crew over the holidays, then don't pay the 13th. If they want the chance of even a semblance of co-operation, they had better pay every penny. Their choice. If you take food from my family's mouth.... I know what I will be doing. Watching and waiting.
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Generally, if our dear leaders haven't announced the presence of "special discount rates" or "preferential rates" for CX employees offered by special arrangement by HSBC/DAH SING/HANG SENG who will be in the street for 2 weeks...
It's a good sign.
It's a good sign.
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CX is paying the bases their 13th month (incorporated into their salaries). They will pay mine as well. If not, I will obtain the 13th month through 'other means'. Either way, it will balance out, if you know what I mean.
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If you are a 'US based guy', then what on earth are you still doing here? In case you haven't noticed, not many Americans left in CX (and if you are Canadian, then stop complaining, you make money on the conversion! 
).
).
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Air Profit:
you are incorrect. All those rumours that so many Americans left for other airlines are not true. The last number I have heard is 10 US based Americans left so far this year.
You are also incorrect in regards "CX is paying the bases their 13th month (incorporated into their salaries)." at least for First Officers. Most first officer salaries on bases are nearly identical to the HKG pay scale without 13th month. You are correct that some of the based Captain YOS scales are higher then in HKG and equal 13 months salary. Taking into account that based officers have a way higher tax burden and no housing assistance what is the point you want to make?
you are incorrect. All those rumours that so many Americans left for other airlines are not true. The last number I have heard is 10 US based Americans left so far this year.
You are also incorrect in regards "CX is paying the bases their 13th month (incorporated into their salaries)." at least for First Officers. Most first officer salaries on bases are nearly identical to the HKG pay scale without 13th month. You are correct that some of the based Captain YOS scales are higher then in HKG and equal 13 months salary. Taking into account that based officers have a way higher tax burden and no housing assistance what is the point you want to make?
Last edited by GTC58; 5th Dec 2017 at 18:34.
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Can't have your cake and eat it too. I'd happily forego housing and pay increased income tax to live in my home city with fresh air and proper labour laws.
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... and so would most of your colleagues! So what does that say about a CX without ARAPA and on a D scale contract? Pilot jobs are available in almost all our home countries, to say nothing of all the contract jobs available in Asia.
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GTC. You are sipping the company koolaid. There will be very few Americans left by the end of next year. I know of 10+ myself, never mind the ones I don't know of. Further, your COS clearly states '13th month' incorporated. I'm not sure why you would want to undermine the fight the HK pilots have on hand. Can you explain? As for taxes etc, that is a personal choice. You get to live at home in exchange for that. Many live in HK at the expense of that. And the cost of living in HK is much higher. How about you and your based colleagues support and assist those in HK. You may not think the issues in HK important, but they may be one day when CX closes yet another base (LA, SFO....etc). This month is not the time to show weakness or divisiveness. You might want to think of that.
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Trafalgar
I am just stating the facts, while you guys just spreading hear say. The official USAOA numbers for the US base are 8 officers joined the US base area and 10 left this year so far. A net loss of 2 officers. It has nothing to do about sipping the companies koolaid. These are the facts, thats all. If I would speculate I'll say there might be 10 more US based officers leaving, far from "There will be very few Americans left by the end of next year.". Maybe you are talking about Americans based in Hong Kong and I misunderstood.
You are also incorrect that the US CBA clearly states "13th month incorporated". There is no language at all referring to 13th month pay in the US CBA. You are the one who should get his facts right before spreading unfounded rumours.
Btw, it was "Air Profit" bringing the 13th month up. I just responded with the facts.
I did not post any opinion about the matter, barely pointing out the realities. What do I undermine? I do not understand why you think I am not on the HKG officers side? Why do you think based officers do not support and assist those in HK? Quite the opposite is true, as many US based officers believe the US base is insignificant in terms of crew numbers and closing the US bases might be a reality in the not so far future.
I am just stating the facts, while you guys just spreading hear say. The official USAOA numbers for the US base are 8 officers joined the US base area and 10 left this year so far. A net loss of 2 officers. It has nothing to do about sipping the companies koolaid. These are the facts, thats all. If I would speculate I'll say there might be 10 more US based officers leaving, far from "There will be very few Americans left by the end of next year.". Maybe you are talking about Americans based in Hong Kong and I misunderstood.
You are also incorrect that the US CBA clearly states "13th month incorporated". There is no language at all referring to 13th month pay in the US CBA. You are the one who should get his facts right before spreading unfounded rumours.
Btw, it was "Air Profit" bringing the 13th month up. I just responded with the facts.
I did not post any opinion about the matter, barely pointing out the realities. What do I undermine? I do not understand why you think I am not on the HKG officers side? Why do you think based officers do not support and assist those in HK? Quite the opposite is true, as many US based officers believe the US base is insignificant in terms of crew numbers and closing the US bases might be a reality in the not so far future.
Last edited by GTC58; 6th Dec 2017 at 00:34.
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GTC58,
When people say that 13th Month is incorporated into the based salaries, they do so because as part of the settlement in 1999 where A Scalers took paycuts, B Scale Based salaries were grossed up to incorporate 13th month. I cannot recall if all Bases received the increase, perhaps someone else might recall the details.
I don't say this to get into a p!ssing competition, just explaining the jargon.
When people say that 13th Month is incorporated into the based salaries, they do so because as part of the settlement in 1999 where A Scalers took paycuts, B Scale Based salaries were grossed up to incorporate 13th month. I cannot recall if all Bases received the increase, perhaps someone else might recall the details.
I don't say this to get into a p!ssing competition, just explaining the jargon.
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Liam,
I do not want this to be a pissing competition either. I am just referring to Trafalgar's post, claiming that the US CBA "clearly states 13th month incorporated" which is not true.
You might be right about the history, however if you would compare the salary scales you will find that US based FO's do not have 13th month incorporated and I only pointed this out to "Air Profit" as he was generalizing that all based officers have the 13th month salary incorporated in their pay scale, which is not true either if you convert salaries to HKG currency and compare.
If you want to talk history the HKAOA actually managed to negotiate a significant pay-cut for US based FO's when COS08 was introduced and was only reversed in a legal settlement due to the thread of legal action (in the US, by 3 US based officers) in regards of age discrimination for those who where on COS99 and signed over to COS08. Those FO's who joined the US base on COS08 will only catch up September 2018 as per negotiation of the new US CBA, meaning that there are still several US based FO's who earn less then what the US pay scales in the current CBA show as they haven't caught up.
I do not want this to be a pissing competition either. I am just referring to Trafalgar's post, claiming that the US CBA "clearly states 13th month incorporated" which is not true.
You might be right about the history, however if you would compare the salary scales you will find that US based FO's do not have 13th month incorporated and I only pointed this out to "Air Profit" as he was generalizing that all based officers have the 13th month salary incorporated in their pay scale, which is not true either if you convert salaries to HKG currency and compare.
If you want to talk history the HKAOA actually managed to negotiate a significant pay-cut for US based FO's when COS08 was introduced and was only reversed in a legal settlement due to the thread of legal action (in the US, by 3 US based officers) in regards of age discrimination for those who where on COS99 and signed over to COS08. Those FO's who joined the US base on COS08 will only catch up September 2018 as per negotiation of the new US CBA, meaning that there are still several US based FO's who earn less then what the US pay scales in the current CBA show as they haven't caught up.
Last edited by GTC58; 6th Dec 2017 at 00:32.
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If you want to talk history the HKAOA actually managed to negotiate a significant pay-cut for US based FO's when COS08 was introduced and was only reversed in a legal settlement due to the thread of legal action (in the US, by 3 US based officers) in regards of age discrimination for those who where on COS99. Those FO's who joined the US base on COS08 will only catch up September 2018 as a common FO pay-scale was negotiated into the new US CBA.
It should also be noted that US based pilots had the option to stay on CoS’99 or sign over to CoS’08. There was a negotiated pay protection element, but it was inadequate as it had an expiration date. As it turns out, the choice was an illegal one as it involved a difference in terms in exchange for an increased retirement age. This is age discrimination in the USA.
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GTC56,
I think the entire argument of comparing based salaries to HK is a waste of bandwidth. With 20 plus years of benchmarking and all the horse-trading changes due to retirement ages, all the various salaries are fairly disconnected.
No argument from me regarding the shoddy treatment of COS08 in the US. I don't blame the HKAOA as I seem to recall Richard Hall's fingerprints were all over it (as with Paris, COS08/RA65, HKPA, the ADL Instructors and nearly ever other recent f$ck-up).
I admire the small group of US FOs that stood up over BPP/RA and I think USAOA played their limited hand pretty well, particularly exploiting Kincare in California. Don't know much about the litigation recently launched, however I can understand why some of the based guys don't like it. But I guess it's a sad reflection of the relationship that management have created, that I cheer anyone taking on their nonsense.
Genuinely, I wish all the based pilots well.... a rising tide hopefully floats all boats.
I think the entire argument of comparing based salaries to HK is a waste of bandwidth. With 20 plus years of benchmarking and all the horse-trading changes due to retirement ages, all the various salaries are fairly disconnected.
No argument from me regarding the shoddy treatment of COS08 in the US. I don't blame the HKAOA as I seem to recall Richard Hall's fingerprints were all over it (as with Paris, COS08/RA65, HKPA, the ADL Instructors and nearly ever other recent f$ck-up).
I admire the small group of US FOs that stood up over BPP/RA and I think USAOA played their limited hand pretty well, particularly exploiting Kincare in California. Don't know much about the litigation recently launched, however I can understand why some of the based guys don't like it. But I guess it's a sad reflection of the relationship that management have created, that I cheer anyone taking on their nonsense.
Genuinely, I wish all the based pilots well.... a rising tide hopefully floats all boats.
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Agreed Liam. Happy for all the bases to advance their cause, terms and conditions. All I ask is that they likewise support the efforts of the HK based pilots. Ultimately, we either all swim together, or sink together.
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Thread Starter
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After reading the last line of the second paragraph and the first line of the third paragraph in the FOP weekly update, I’m now fully convinced. There will be not be a full 13th month for pilots. What a great way to boost morale in preparation for the holiday season...
Last edited by Hydrolix; 6th Dec 2017 at 21:39.