Focus Night
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: I go, therefore I am there!
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So, ... my advocating concessions now, ... for equivocal returns later; rather than permanent cuts, makes me a spinless cheap whore. I did laugh at that.
Liam: I'm not going to waste my time educating you, when I know full well that you are incapable of rational thought or discussion. By the way, nice avoidance of the question.
The competitive relationship between the company and its aircrew is at the core of the problem and will result in the pineapple that is coming. I am fully aware that the company holds the majority of the responsibility for this. However, our our incompetent representation has not helped.
Liam: I'm not going to waste my time educating you, when I know full well that you are incapable of rational thought or discussion. By the way, nice avoidance of the question.
The competitive relationship between the company and its aircrew is at the core of the problem and will result in the pineapple that is coming. I am fully aware that the company holds the majority of the responsibility for this. However, our our incompetent representation has not helped.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Sorry Arse,
I missed your question; would I be interested in a win/win? Yeah, I'm interested in gold-plated unicorn droppings as well, but they don't exist either.
Listen Arse, the DFO says she wants at least 10% savings and reading the tea leaves, the ARAPA will be gone by the end of the year. Right, that's the DFO's win and my loss. Now what would my win be in return?
A first world D&G? I don't intend getting D&G'd and that don't pay the mortgage.
Merge seniority lists with KA? Total respect for the KA boys and girls, but "no thanks", doesn't pay the mortgage.
Promise of Profit Share; If only I could believe them.... And doesn't pay the mortgage.
A JCR/Company Policy/ smokey mirrors rostering system.... Doesn't pay the mortgage and didn't I buy that in 1999
Smaller pay cut, because they cut my P Fund... Does pay the mortgage, but I have to work longer.
Raise the EFP threshold. Please don't tell me it's not a pay cut....
So please enlighten me, what's the win for me in a 10% pay cut and a slash to the ARAPA? The satisfaction that I funded Anna's bonus?
Yeah, I'm being negative. If you want positive, here's a true win/win, open the Bases!! But they don't want to do that because they will have nothing to sell us in a few years when they want another round of paycuts.
Intellectual enough for yo' Arse? Now educate me on the win/ win at Qantas ..... I dare you.
I missed your question; would I be interested in a win/win? Yeah, I'm interested in gold-plated unicorn droppings as well, but they don't exist either.
Listen Arse, the DFO says she wants at least 10% savings and reading the tea leaves, the ARAPA will be gone by the end of the year. Right, that's the DFO's win and my loss. Now what would my win be in return?
A first world D&G? I don't intend getting D&G'd and that don't pay the mortgage.
Merge seniority lists with KA? Total respect for the KA boys and girls, but "no thanks", doesn't pay the mortgage.
Promise of Profit Share; If only I could believe them.... And doesn't pay the mortgage.
A JCR/Company Policy/ smokey mirrors rostering system.... Doesn't pay the mortgage and didn't I buy that in 1999
Smaller pay cut, because they cut my P Fund... Does pay the mortgage, but I have to work longer.
Raise the EFP threshold. Please don't tell me it's not a pay cut....
So please enlighten me, what's the win for me in a 10% pay cut and a slash to the ARAPA? The satisfaction that I funded Anna's bonus?
Yeah, I'm being negative. If you want positive, here's a true win/win, open the Bases!! But they don't want to do that because they will have nothing to sell us in a few years when they want another round of paycuts.
Intellectual enough for yo' Arse? Now educate me on the win/ win at Qantas ..... I dare you.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Anna, I know I'm in the wrong ******* airline! Because of the golden handcuffs I can't change! Get rid of seniority!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
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Why do some of you think by getting rid of seniority it's going to magically fix all the issues facing the pilot body in this industry. You think when an airline hires they give a sh!t that you have 3000 hours more than the guy applying for the same position? As long as both meet the required minimum they will just give the job to whomever will do it for less.
Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.
Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Why do some of you think by getting rid of seniority it's going to magically fix all the issues facing the pilot body in this industry. You think when an airline hires they give a sh!t that you have 3000 hours more than the guy applying for the same position? As long as both meet the required minimum they will just give the job to whomever will do it for less.
Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.
Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.
The point is many would have left already had they been able to get a similarly paid job elsewhere, CX might pay the most but if they want people to stay they have to provide pay and conditions accordingly, the cheap guy may take the job but as soon as he realises he's worth something with x thousand hours and a brand new 350 rating he's gone! How long do you think CX could afford to be a training airline? They are now to a much lessor extent because the rusty handcuffs stop many from leaving.
Seniority within the company would always be there like any other job, however you could give three months notice whenever you felt like it in a 30-40yr career, what a novel idea. You might even return to CX after having brought a family up elsewhere.
Lots of jobs no longer require seniority. They aren't the best, but the number is increasing and the Ts and Cs are improving. Moving from left back to right if you change employers is no longer necessary. The CX golden handcuffs are losing their shine.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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This capt first second officer rubbish is from Juan Trippe and his flying boat days with PAN AM wanting it to be like a cruise liner and this isn't the military.
Simple you're a pilot the senior more experienced one sits in the left and is designated commander I guess using the above examples there would be a senior doctor in a group surgery and a senior lawyer in large case. Obviously you would still need to reach a minimum standard before being checked out in the left seat. And once again make jumping from airline to airline a no brainer.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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The entire planet functions perfectly well without it, and no the doctor who's the cheapest or the lawyer who's the cheapest doesn't get the job.
Seniority within the company would always be there like any other job, however you could give three months notice whenever you felt like it in a 30-40yr career, what a novel idea. You might even return to CX after having brought a family up elsewhere.
Even now you can still give your three months notice, plenty of carriers in China, Middle East, India hiring direct entry Captains, what is stopping you? Oh I see you want your seniority number at CX secure for life as you test the waters elsewhere, because you are special!!!
Show me one industry where you have a small number of companies that employ a large number of employees, all with similar credentials, where their salaries have kept up to those in other professions. Factory workers? Bus drivers? What makes you think that because you are a pilot that without seniority the salary packages offered by other carriers will be better? There will always be someone willing to do it for less, that has already been proven. You think a a brand new 777 rated Captain will not come to CX to join as a direct entry Captain and fly for the same salary as an FO? You think CX is going to care that this individual has less than 500 PIC time on the 777?
Last edited by Dragon69; 23rd Sep 2017 at 13:14.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Why do some of you think by getting rid of seniority it's going to magically fix all the issues facing the pilot body in this industry. You think when an airline hires they give a sh!t that you have 3000 hours more than the guy applying for the same position? As long as both meet the required minimum they will just give the job to whomever will do it for less.
Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.
Seniority at least offers protection, yeah it's not ideal, and at times it does feel that you have the golden handcuffs, but I would much rather have a seniority system that's transparent and ensures proper career progression than one without seniority that's open to abuse.
Protection???
I have seen direct entry commands and FOs, type changes, leave and staff travel all outside seniority when it suits the mis-managers. We have no protection.
Economists talk of 'mobility of labour' - the movement of employees seeking new positions for whatever reason. Seniority is a massive impediment to our mobility. Without the ability to move we just touch our toes and take another pineapple. It will keep on happening until we have the ability to move to a better place. Simple.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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The question was asked, and the accountant blatantly said that it didn't matter squat who the Hedge was with so stop fussing about it. DS then added that he hoped the hedge was with Swire, as then they could continue to run CX at a loss for a few years and keep us in a job, who knows?????????
It does matter who the hedge was with. If CX took it with a Swire related company then it is just a way of sucking billions out of CX without having to give any to the other share holders, the company isn't really in a bad position financially and one could argue we are well run by crafty bastards.
If the hedge is with a non-Swire company then our bonus earning mis-managers have cost us billions, they are grossly incompetent and should be sacked.
On the plus side, either way the hedge runs out by the end of 2018. With it behind us we will be back in black.
For those that still believe our "seniority" system is the bane of our existence I'd offer that with the emphasis on "cheap" when Airlines recruit nowadays our experience is neither recognised nor appreciated. In fact, I'd suggest it's a handicap to them. Airlines have proven they can crew aircraft with cadets and other inexperienced crew and (so far) not create new holes in hills so (tragically) experience is just a loophole that companies would rather avoid in order that they sustain the current MO of 'pathetic packages for aviators'. Don't approve, but simply recognise it as the way things are.
