The New deal
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Anotherday. Congratulations, you have just ensured that you and the other 3000+ pilots will experience 'anotherday' of misery (followed by a career of such days). This TA is, when you dig down into the details, the most cynical, one-sided and ultimately career busting document i've ever read. If this goes through, you have handed the company the LEGAL means to undermine the only remaining protections and leverage we possess. Any chance of a career with a proper housing package (as opposed to a sh*tty allowance that doesn't even keep up with inflation) will be gone. Send this back to the company with the contempt it deserves. They need CC and the TB ended. We mustn't allow that without obtaining something of value, and something that gives our working lives stability. NO.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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Anotherday, let me try to reach out to you another way. Emotions are high as you can see. I want you to realize that we are trying to improve conditions and not accept lesser conditions. Ask yourself what you are worth and not what you are willing to accept. In the future, as many are now, you may want to move on. Perhaps your experience level is not there yet but it will be. If you are willing to accept less than that is what you think you and the rest of us are worth. If you say no then you think you and the rest of us are worth more. This includes future joiners.
This new TA is a move backwards for everyone. It may seem on the surface as an improvement for you but it really isn't. It's really just what they think of you now. Keep in mind that not too long ago, everyone joined on full housing.
There is a worldwide shortage of crew now. Mostly in need of experienced crew. The packages keep improving and Xiamen airlines for one is offering multiple packages. I have heard that Xiamen is pretty good. There is a reason for that. Don't sell yourself short and your colleagues for that matter. That does not mean all of us but guys and girls of your level. Your generation is different and you do get a lot of crap but I think you're worth more, deserve more and I, for one, am trying to get you more.
Please rethink what it is your trying to accomplish vs. what you are willing to accept.
All the best.
This new TA is a move backwards for everyone. It may seem on the surface as an improvement for you but it really isn't. It's really just what they think of you now. Keep in mind that not too long ago, everyone joined on full housing.
There is a worldwide shortage of crew now. Mostly in need of experienced crew. The packages keep improving and Xiamen airlines for one is offering multiple packages. I have heard that Xiamen is pretty good. There is a reason for that. Don't sell yourself short and your colleagues for that matter. That does not mean all of us but guys and girls of your level. Your generation is different and you do get a lot of crap but I think you're worth more, deserve more and I, for one, am trying to get you more.
Please rethink what it is your trying to accomplish vs. what you are willing to accept.
All the best.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
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Say this gets voted in
Could one of the unintended consequences be a self union bust ? OR a company manipulated union bust ?
After we have come so far and so close by the looks the GC reeks of incompetence and whimpishness
What would our forefathers be saying who went off to fight in the wars be saying?
Is this a step forward for the next GEN ?
The answer is painfully obvious to most of us who have been here long enough....
Vote sensibility for your future GEN Y
Look for the long term picture if there is any chance you could be stuck here along time
Could one of the unintended consequences be a self union bust ? OR a company manipulated union bust ?
After we have come so far and so close by the looks the GC reeks of incompetence and whimpishness
What would our forefathers be saying who went off to fight in the wars be saying?
Is this a step forward for the next GEN ?
The answer is painfully obvious to most of us who have been here long enough....
Vote sensibility for your future GEN Y
Look for the long term picture if there is any chance you could be stuck here along time
its£5perworddammit
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Hypothetical scenerio - lets say everyone votes no this time around and the deal is rejected. The company comes back with a new deal that locks in the current expat housing deal for the next 10 years, and f-all change to HKPA. Which way do you think the likes of flying clog and flyhardmo will vote then?
What do you think would be needed to convince us otherwise?
What do you think would be needed to convince us otherwise?
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the pilot body at the last agreement vote in an arrangement with no rostering protections, thus the Company was simply able to change them? So if this deal goes down does that not mean that they still have the right to change them at will? Note I'm not referring to any moral rights or wrongs here simply legal ones.
Predicting 65% YES, 35% NO, TA is approved!
Signing bonus and HKPA increases will be to critical to the result. The votes have been purchased with a cash allowance, TIHK!!!!!!
Signing bonus and HKPA increases will be to critical to the result. The votes have been purchased with a cash allowance, TIHK!!!!!!
Join Date: Sep 2014
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Sometimes it is so humiliating being a pilot. We really are a self interested bunch of fools. The management have us by the balls and they know it. A scalers looked after themselves and allowed B scalers to be screwed. B scalers look after themselves screw the C scalers. What on earth makes you think that the new brigade will not just (and they should) look after themselves. When in our history did the AOA do anything constructive to stop this slide down the greasy pole?
What EXACTLY should they do anyway? HK does not have first World Labour law protections..........
Go on strike and see how far that gets you in HK against Swires....
Go on strike and see how far that gets you in HK against Swires....
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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Let me make the biggest point about this whole thing. Our union, and the company, are asking, no, expecting us, to continue to work for free. I do not know of anyone in this business working for free. How free "R" got in in the first place was absurd but to continue to do so is even more absurd. That is right, our NC negotiated for us to continue to work for free. Can you even imagine that these guys who are suppose to represent us and improve our conditions actually are going backwards by like ten years.
I was angry but now I am incensed. UPS just had a pretty good TA come through. Delta and SWA are picketing to improve their conditions. A few have left just this last month to go back to AA. Lots of the older guard are retiring. A lot of Chinese carriers are improving conditions with better pay and travel and we are going to get this TA? Holy hell.
Sift through the rubbish of the FAQs, read the side letters. Read all the stuff being sent and realize what's really at stake. If this gets voted in we should all have our heads examined for ever letting this happen.
I was angry but now I am incensed. UPS just had a pretty good TA come through. Delta and SWA are picketing to improve their conditions. A few have left just this last month to go back to AA. Lots of the older guard are retiring. A lot of Chinese carriers are improving conditions with better pay and travel and we are going to get this TA? Holy hell.
Sift through the rubbish of the FAQs, read the side letters. Read all the stuff being sent and realize what's really at stake. If this gets voted in we should all have our heads examined for ever letting this happen.
Last edited by The Visionary; 1st Jul 2016 at 06:34. Reason: Angry spelling
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Prior to about 2006 for every 5 hours on reserve the pilots got 1 hour credit. And there was no minimum hours the company were required to roster, so a whole day was wasted for practically no credit. There were many pilots doing more than 45 days pa on reserve and some up to 50 for nearly no credit. That was the deal we signed to and ‘Visionary’ there are two sides to honoring an agreement.
PC was on the HKAOA GC and proposed the 30 days ‘free’ reserve. Why? Well he assessed that the airline average was 37 days reserve and assessed how much credit that was attracting. So he suggested 30 days zero credit and then stack the credit so that break even was at 37 day. i.e. no cost to the company but the net result was that the company then rostered close to 30 days and that improved the pilots rosters significantly.
That is the history. It is not ‘free’ credit. It is zero credit to 30 days then credit costs them in productivity. It is what you signed up to, and it is significantly better than what it used to be. It was a win for the pilots post 2006 as days on reserve were reduced. If you want to demand that the company honor their side how about you consider doing the same? It is not free reserve it is a part of what you agreed to and is just one, and only one, small element of the total package.
PC was on the HKAOA GC and proposed the 30 days ‘free’ reserve. Why? Well he assessed that the airline average was 37 days reserve and assessed how much credit that was attracting. So he suggested 30 days zero credit and then stack the credit so that break even was at 37 day. i.e. no cost to the company but the net result was that the company then rostered close to 30 days and that improved the pilots rosters significantly.
That is the history. It is not ‘free’ credit. It is zero credit to 30 days then credit costs them in productivity. It is what you signed up to, and it is significantly better than what it used to be. It was a win for the pilots post 2006 as days on reserve were reduced. If you want to demand that the company honor their side how about you consider doing the same? It is not free reserve it is a part of what you agreed to and is just one, and only one, small element of the total package.
Join Date: Mar 1999
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I've seen quite a few posts saying that no other company has reserve without being paid for it, or words to that effect. On the contrary there are plenty of companies out there that have reserve as part of their base conditions ie there is no additional pay for it. Some have restrictions on how and when it can be used but some do not even have that.
I hate reserve as much as the next person but some sort of contingency tools are required by any airline. This does not seem any worse than the current situation and is better than the unlimited right to roster reserve alluded to above.
I hate reserve as much as the next person but some sort of contingency tools are required by any airline. This does not seem any worse than the current situation and is better than the unlimited right to roster reserve alluded to above.
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I am just using the words in the TA. It does say free. Now, as to your points, and they are taken.
Up until about two years ago I rarely had "R" on my roster. For years it was one week in a year. Now it is all the time, every month and they abuse it. What I also noticed is that I was rarely called on "R" on now get called all the time which fixes the 30 day problem for them. Once you fly the "R" goes away or, they can just change it to something else.
The other REAL BIGGIE is that, A duty will not normally be changed to "R" but it's at the discretion of the MICM, NOT Crew Control! You never get a G or O day. It's always "R" and the reason is always "short of crew". Can I talk to the MICM, No!
I personally believe we should get credit for everything. Why, because for years and years now, ever time we sign something, they find a way around it. Have a look at the wording with regards to "R" in this TA. First Box, it say PUBLISHED ROSTER. They have been abusing that for years and will again. Real time comes out and they do whatever they want.
Freighter captains are still getting more than ten day trips. That was supposed to stop and is in writing.
Gentlemen, points taken but I do not agree. We should not continue to work for 30 days 0 credit. I want my credit back.
Up until about two years ago I rarely had "R" on my roster. For years it was one week in a year. Now it is all the time, every month and they abuse it. What I also noticed is that I was rarely called on "R" on now get called all the time which fixes the 30 day problem for them. Once you fly the "R" goes away or, they can just change it to something else.
The other REAL BIGGIE is that, A duty will not normally be changed to "R" but it's at the discretion of the MICM, NOT Crew Control! You never get a G or O day. It's always "R" and the reason is always "short of crew". Can I talk to the MICM, No!
I personally believe we should get credit for everything. Why, because for years and years now, ever time we sign something, they find a way around it. Have a look at the wording with regards to "R" in this TA. First Box, it say PUBLISHED ROSTER. They have been abusing that for years and will again. Real time comes out and they do whatever they want.
Freighter captains are still getting more than ten day trips. That was supposed to stop and is in writing.
Gentlemen, points taken but I do not agree. We should not continue to work for 30 days 0 credit. I want my credit back.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I certainly agree, and have observed that with each agreement some minion has done their best to find a way to stretch the meaning of the words to gain productivity for the company. However, with regard to reserve, it was worst in the past and effectively there is a scale that pegs the company to 30 days and that is better than it was.
This is a total package. I looked at what the GMA put out yesterday and am waiting for the GC's comparison of past and future. I thought that there were a very large number of improvements that we had been seeking for a long time, thank you to the NC. Nothing major, but the game is not like that, chip away.
We will never get caste iron agreements on all issues for 10,20,30 years ahead, and I am sure each pilot realises why. I have friends who are professionals, e.g. computer experts, small company managers, who are in and out of work and struggle to pay their mortgages. I have always known that my pay is secure. Is there value in that?
This is a total package. I looked at what the GMA put out yesterday and am waiting for the GC's comparison of past and future. I thought that there were a very large number of improvements that we had been seeking for a long time, thank you to the NC. Nothing major, but the game is not like that, chip away.
We will never get caste iron agreements on all issues for 10,20,30 years ahead, and I am sure each pilot realises why. I have friends who are professionals, e.g. computer experts, small company managers, who are in and out of work and struggle to pay their mortgages. I have always known that my pay is secure. Is there value in that?
Last edited by Interested_Party; 1st Jul 2016 at 12:23.
