Staff Travel Change
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
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Taking an empty seat on an aircraft is relatively inconsequential to the ****e that would rain down if we were to start doing your upgrade training to dilute your industrial action in my humble opinion.
I hope in 12 months time you can say I am wrong.
Do I think that a captain that has flown for KA for the entire period that CX has been invested in KA has contributed more to CX bottom line than a guy fresh from Adelaide? Yes I do. Should that be recognised in his staff travel code? Yes i think it should. Should the SO bump him? No, I don't think so. You think otherwise? "How dare you!"
I hope in 12 months time you can say I am wrong.
Do I think that a captain that has flown for KA for the entire period that CX has been invested in KA has contributed more to CX bottom line than a guy fresh from Adelaide? Yes I do. Should that be recognised in his staff travel code? Yes i think it should. Should the SO bump him? No, I don't think so. You think otherwise? "How dare you!"
Lowkoon
I have heard the same from CX trainers that KA is being geared up to do our training and I agree it is a much bigger and important fight we must both fight against. The question I would like to ask is the DPA willing to put a training ban in place and go into CC to enforce it?
Now from a CX captains point of view you need to look at what the change to staff travel has done on a total CX group level. Irrespective whether KA offered or the DPA asked for the same boarding priority as CX staff, the fact that the DPA has threatened CC over it, they have committed the golden industrial mortal sin of demanding something that will disadvantage others in the group.
If it was simply a case of CX/KA offering it we probably wouldn't be having this debate especially if the DPA had approached the AOA advising them what was offered.
While I won't play the tit for tat game that CX management want us to play, I am disappointed at how the DPA and some of my friends at KA have gone about this. Friends don't do this.
I have heard the same from CX trainers that KA is being geared up to do our training and I agree it is a much bigger and important fight we must both fight against. The question I would like to ask is the DPA willing to put a training ban in place and go into CC to enforce it?
Now from a CX captains point of view you need to look at what the change to staff travel has done on a total CX group level. Irrespective whether KA offered or the DPA asked for the same boarding priority as CX staff, the fact that the DPA has threatened CC over it, they have committed the golden industrial mortal sin of demanding something that will disadvantage others in the group.
If it was simply a case of CX/KA offering it we probably wouldn't be having this debate especially if the DPA had approached the AOA advising them what was offered.While I won't play the tit for tat game that CX management want us to play, I am disappointed at how the DPA and some of my friends at KA have gone about this. Friends don't do this.
Are all your expectations from "friends" so one sided ?
KA pilots go out on a limb for "us" but we are OK that a new joining KA admin staff bumps you off a flight and " to the bottom of the list, it's a take over not a merger " rant.
And what about KA Taiwanese flights? What industrial action will you be taking my friend ?
KA pilots go out on a limb for "us" but we are OK that a new joining KA admin staff bumps you off a flight and " to the bottom of the list, it's a take over not a merger " rant.
And what about KA Taiwanese flights? What industrial action will you be taking my friend ?
Gnadenburg
With all due respect we never asked or were offered KA staff travel at the same boarding priority as KA staff. I certainly wouldn't threaten CC over it behind the DPA's back.
No I'm not OK with it but it was done quietly by CX and the first we found out about it was months after the event. Also it wasn't pushed by any union. CX just made them CX employees.
Regarding us doing your Taiwanese flights? You can have back if you want. I didn't ask for them and the AOA certainly didn't ask for them or threaten to go into CC to get them.
As I said if it was simply a case of CX/KA changing the boarding priorities we wouldn't be having this argument with you. The very fact the DPA actively pushed for it and threaten CC over it knowing full well it would disadvantage others in the CX group is what makes some of us disappointed with our friends in KA and the DPA. Friends don't do that, ever.
Are all your expectations from "friends" so one sided ?
KA pilots go out on a limb for "us" but we are OK that a new joining KA admin staff bumps you off a flight and " to the bottom of the list, it's a take over not a merger " rant.
Regarding us doing your Taiwanese flights? You can have back if you want. I didn't ask for them and the AOA certainly didn't ask for them or threaten to go into CC to get them.
As I said if it was simply a case of CX/KA changing the boarding priorities we wouldn't be having this argument with you. The very fact the DPA actively pushed for it and threaten CC over it knowing full well it would disadvantage others in the CX group is what makes some of us disappointed with our friends in KA and the DPA. Friends don't do that, ever.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 7th Feb 2016 at 02:54.
Gnadenburg
The point I'm making is that CX/KA and Swire were going to do this anyway. Swire actually wants common boarding priority for all Swire companies. The fact that it was offered in negotiations was deliberate to divide us. The fact that the DPA didn't recognise this is what is disappointing to us. We should all be fighting for the same cause but the company has yet again used the industrial wedge to divide us. Can't you see this?
The point I'm making is that CX/KA and Swire were going to do this anyway. Swire actually wants common boarding priority for all Swire companies. The fact that it was offered in negotiations was deliberate to divide us. The fact that the DPA didn't recognise this is what is disappointing to us. We should all be fighting for the same cause but the company has yet again used the industrial wedge to divide us. Can't you see this?
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The very fact the DPA actively pushed for it
No. In classic fashion, they reneged. Despite issuing us lots of pretty tables and FAQ's that outlined everything that was released again last week, over 2 years later, they said they changed their mind. Now we have a problem. We took them to task in the exact way you are for their broken promises to you. This culminated in a vote for CC over 5 items that we have been lied to or stonewalled over, of which staff travel was one.
If we had received DOJ on CX without you receiving same you bet you're ass I'd be saying it's not right and turning it down. But that's not the case. We've gone to a single, unified, group-wide staff travel system, pure DOJ. If the airlines I've looked into are anything to go by, this is industry standard. Just as your commuters have been disadvantaged, so have ours. But they've been farhqued by a much bigger pineapple. Cos there's now 20,000+ extra staff that are now between them and seeing their familes in Phuket, Bali, Penang, etc.
I understand that among the expatriate pilots, it's a disadvantage because your personal travel habits don't benefit from this change. But for the other 22,000 staff that like slurping seafood in Okinawa or Dan Dan Noodles in Shanghai, it's a win.
So the irony kinda strikes me. You want the KA pilots to take a hit for the team, again, but you won't put your own CX group before yourselves (pilots)? It's alright Jack, I'm ok!
<Note: References to 'you' refer to the pilot group as a whole, not necessarily yourself 404. I rarely come on here but IIRC, you're one of the rare, reasoned, moderate ones, hence my taking the time to reply and not skipping over it like the other vitriolic bile that unfortunately graces these pages>
Re post above: While I can't speak for the present committee, I can't imagine they'd differ from those past that made attempt after attempt to engage with the AOA. But ultimately, they were dismissed. "We are not going to make a change that disadvantages a single AOA member" was a response I was quoted by a committee member. So yet again, the needs of the few were put ahead of the needs of the many. I'd like nothing more than a united stand against management by our combined pilot groups. There's a ****storm coming and it's not going to be nice for either of us. The company is gearing up to play us off against one another, with toys being placed in the cot of whichever sibling has favour with mummy at the time. Our collective defense against that is a united stand but you guys can't even unite your own, let alone work with your relatives. When you sort your **** out, we'll be here. >80% pilot membership & >75% voting in the room on that night.
Last edited by Terrain Terrain; 7th Feb 2016 at 03:40.
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Rumor is that some Kitty destinations might be transferred to Dragon in the future. True or False?
Rumor is that policy will be changing soon for calling in "sick". True or False?
I have never seen so much changes happening within these three years in other carriers. Are we trying too hard?
Rumor is that policy will be changing soon for calling in "sick". True or False?
I have never seen so much changes happening within these three years in other carriers. Are we trying too hard?
404
Has there really been a concern or sincerity from your side toward KA pilots as the tone of your posts suggests ? On any issue ? I've been flabbergasted with the lack of serious bonding between the two unions and I'd prefer this discussion offline. It's embroiled with some underhanded politics as well as a foolish arrogance.
Staff travel was offered out of the blue with a below par pay offer. Nominees, access to our own freight discounts and yours, baggage allowances and the like were primary issues along with us continuously sinking in priority with every new joiner to the Group- except those that joined the facade that is KA or KA Dragon or whatever it is now as aircrew.
Along with other EGM tabled issues the staff travel offer wasn't honored. Hence CC.
Demographically, if you look at CX's take-over date, the effect to expatriate pilot like yourself seemed modest minus the hooh-bloody-hah you'd expect from a legacy attitude. I now see FOC's the complication.
But the change last year in staff travel policy that was swayed toward other employees, such as office staff, and in combination with fanfares and our continuously sinking Group priority, staff travel is driving toward the unusable. So what and F&*^ you was the attitude and certainly not the friendly tone of your posts.
Has there really been a concern or sincerity from your side toward KA pilots as the tone of your posts suggests ? On any issue ? I've been flabbergasted with the lack of serious bonding between the two unions and I'd prefer this discussion offline. It's embroiled with some underhanded politics as well as a foolish arrogance.
Staff travel was offered out of the blue with a below par pay offer. Nominees, access to our own freight discounts and yours, baggage allowances and the like were primary issues along with us continuously sinking in priority with every new joiner to the Group- except those that joined the facade that is KA or KA Dragon or whatever it is now as aircrew.
Along with other EGM tabled issues the staff travel offer wasn't honored. Hence CC.
Demographically, if you look at CX's take-over date, the effect to expatriate pilot like yourself seemed modest minus the hooh-bloody-hah you'd expect from a legacy attitude. I now see FOC's the complication.
But the change last year in staff travel policy that was swayed toward other employees, such as office staff, and in combination with fanfares and our continuously sinking Group priority, staff travel is driving toward the unusable. So what and F&*^ you was the attitude and certainly not the friendly tone of your posts.
Rumor is that some Kitty destinations might be transferred to Dragon in the future. True or False?
And let's face it. Japan is the local staff travel phenomenon .
Terrain Terrain
I see where you’re coming from but I think you have missed the point. CX/KA deliberately offered this to you knowing full well you would push for it if they “dragged” it out. Just like the office staff at KA that overnight miraculously became CX employees they could have just changed the staff travel policy. It isn’t a COS item and isn’t negotiated. It’s company policy that can be changed whenever the company wants. Quite frankly I’m surprised the company didn’t change the policy earlier but they obviously had a plan and right now we are all falling into it. Unfortunately the DPA here were the first to fall for it and now we are all falling for it and it needs to stop. I’m disappointed how this has played out but I’m still friends with my mates in KA and won’t be changing how I release my jump seats and I certainly hope this doesn’t fracture the good working relationship between the DPA and AOA because right now we need each other more than ever to fight what is about to come down the pipe line at us.
I see where you’re coming from but I think you have missed the point. CX/KA deliberately offered this to you knowing full well you would push for it if they “dragged” it out. Just like the office staff at KA that overnight miraculously became CX employees they could have just changed the staff travel policy. It isn’t a COS item and isn’t negotiated. It’s company policy that can be changed whenever the company wants. Quite frankly I’m surprised the company didn’t change the policy earlier but they obviously had a plan and right now we are all falling into it. Unfortunately the DPA here were the first to fall for it and now we are all falling for it and it needs to stop. I’m disappointed how this has played out but I’m still friends with my mates in KA and won’t be changing how I release my jump seats and I certainly hope this doesn’t fracture the good working relationship between the DPA and AOA because right now we need each other more than ever to fight what is about to come down the pipe line at us.
What is not being debated here is what CX management may or may not do to the CX/KA pilot body in the future. Citing that in your arguments is a smokescreen.
This is all about the injustice (or win) in regards to the change in staff travel boarding priority.
The KA side like to often quote 'industry standard'
Ok then I'll indulge you there by using Qantas/Jetstar/Impulse as an example of 'industry standard' and how it applies here -
A pilot joins Impulse Airlines in 1994 and subsequently by default, Qantaslink in 2001 and then Jetstar in 2004, courtesy of Qantas BUYING Impulse in 2001.
This pilot does not hold staff travel DOJ on Qantas mainline of 1994 but 2001.
ie. The year Qantas bought Impulse.
What year did Cathay BUY Dragon?
The absolute maximum staff travel DOJ any current KA employees who joined KA prior to 2006 is 2006.
That is 'industry standard'.
This is all about the injustice (or win) in regards to the change in staff travel boarding priority.
The KA side like to often quote 'industry standard'
Ok then I'll indulge you there by using Qantas/Jetstar/Impulse as an example of 'industry standard' and how it applies here -
A pilot joins Impulse Airlines in 1994 and subsequently by default, Qantaslink in 2001 and then Jetstar in 2004, courtesy of Qantas BUYING Impulse in 2001.
This pilot does not hold staff travel DOJ on Qantas mainline of 1994 but 2001.
ie. The year Qantas bought Impulse.
What year did Cathay BUY Dragon?
The absolute maximum staff travel DOJ any current KA employees who joined KA prior to 2006 is 2006.
That is 'industry standard'.
Gnadenburg
I'm more than happy to discuss this with you privately. I agree there is politics going on here which are unhelpful.
The thing with Staff travel as I’ve explained is it isn’t a COS item and therefore isn’t negotiated. If it was offered at negotiations did the DPA ask if it was going to be part of your COS? If they didn’t then it was a lapse on their part. If they did and it was yes my next question to the company negotiators would have been how can it be when for every other CX group employee it is company policy? Staff travel is company policy and will never be relinquished by the company into any of our COS, period. The DPA’s negotiators should have realised this as soon as it was offered.
I'm more than happy to discuss this with you privately. I agree there is politics going on here which are unhelpful.
The thing with Staff travel as I’ve explained is it isn’t a COS item and therefore isn’t negotiated. If it was offered at negotiations did the DPA ask if it was going to be part of your COS? If they didn’t then it was a lapse on their part. If they did and it was yes my next question to the company negotiators would have been how can it be when for every other CX group employee it is company policy? Staff travel is company policy and will never be relinquished by the company into any of our COS, period. The DPA’s negotiators should have realised this as soon as it was offered.
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Win?
It depends on your perspective. It's not a win for our guys commuting on our network. It might be a win for some of the CX guys and local staff who have family in the PRC or KA commuters to Australia.
Overall it's divisive. As an aside over 50% of our pilots have less than 5 years service they aren't be going to be bumping many people anytime soon.
if you really feel strongly about it get your unions lined up and go for it. it's been pulled once before
Overall it's divisive. As an aside over 50% of our pilots have less than 5 years service they aren't be going to be bumping many people anytime soon.
if you really feel strongly about it get your unions lined up and go for it. it's been pulled once before
scavengepump
I was alluding to that when I wrote:
As for the QF/JQ bit they do get the same boarding priority but I will have to check with my mates in QF if what you have said about DOJ is correct. I'm not doubting you just want to check to facts before I discuss it here.
What is not being debated here is what CX management may or may not do to the CX/KA pilot body in the future.
I certainly hope this doesn’t fracture the good working relationship between the DPA and AOA because right now we need each other more than ever to fight what is about to come down the pipe line at us.
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6 more A330 to KA.
Rumour is that 6 more 330 are to go across to Cathay Dragon this year. The rebranding helps to justify this, they will be operated on regional routes, and on routes that are of most importance to the majority of Group employees and local commuters for ST. The main reason the priorities have been changed has nothing to do with pleasing either group of expat pilots.
There is no training ban at KA and now no threat of CC, they are expanding the training dept. DEFOs are getting command in 12-18 months. I don't think CX pilots will be trained at KA, it is easier to let expansion happen at Cathay Dragon. Pacific for long haul, Dragon for regional.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it is just my take on where we are heading.
There is no training ban at KA and now no threat of CC, they are expanding the training dept. DEFOs are getting command in 12-18 months. I don't think CX pilots will be trained at KA, it is easier to let expansion happen at Cathay Dragon. Pacific for long haul, Dragon for regional.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it is just my take on where we are heading.
This argument about how many jumpseat requests you have from CX staff is completely irrelevant.
I doubt you get a huge jumpseat demand for Fuzhou, Chongqing, or Wuhan, so the flights you are probably quoting are PEN and HKT
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The plan is for more expansion at Cathay Dragon. The training will be at KA and, for now, CX training capacity can cope with the introduction of the A350. The COS’s will allow CX pilots to be trained at KA and this is planned for JFO upgrades and some Captain upgrades by pilots willing to do so from CX to KA on secondment.
Integration of the ASLs is also planned to be before the end of 2016.
Integration of the ASLs is also planned to be before the end of 2016.
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And where would you have gotten that information? Considering this thread, I'm not so sure I'd be overly excited going across for fear of being keelhauled.
Anyway, it's pretty clear why the DPA pushed when they did for anyone that cares to look.
Anyway, it's pretty clear why the DPA pushed when they did for anyone that cares to look.