Staff Travel Change
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Your figures suck
1. The numbers of KA staff involved make up just over 10% of the total workforce. Therefore, statistically if there are 10 people listed on a flight 1 will be KA.
AND one wife and six kids = 8 KA wait listed
AND one wife and six kids = 8 KA wait listed
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I don't care how many are waitlisted. They do not work for Cx and should not get cx boarding priority. Can any one name one other airline in this industry that gives employees of another airline equal rights on their sectors
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Like I said, there will always be some clown, Mr quagmire in this case, who tries to justify the decision. And conveniently he works for said wannabe Turkish Airline.
Big picture, its another degradation in conditions for the CX employee. Simple as. Something about polish a turd...
Big picture, its another degradation in conditions for the CX employee. Simple as. Something about polish a turd...
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"Can any one name one other airline in this industry that gives employees of another airline equal rights on their sectors"
Jetstar. First to check in has highest priority, regardless of whether they work for JQ or not.
Jetstar. First to check in has highest priority, regardless of whether they work for JQ or not.
I'd be happy with DOJ from 2006 when CX took us over. Y list. I'd like to see the 2 unions get together and nut something out together too that satisfies as many as possible. Better than us setting on one another and creating bitterness.
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Giiggerty, nice try
Giggerty, nice try mate. Thanks, but no thanks. I know you are desperate to get off your rosters from hell and into the left hand seat of a 777, and I understand that, and neither it is "below" me to get a command on a 320.
I just don't want to.
The travel staff change is a disgrace and deeply unfair, you can spin it as you like.
I don't blame dragon pilots for these staff travel changes, but please don't try me to sell an " opportunity", that is really an insult.
I just don't want to.
The travel staff change is a disgrace and deeply unfair, you can spin it as you like.
I don't blame dragon pilots for these staff travel changes, but please don't try me to sell an " opportunity", that is really an insult.
I personally have no problem with KA guys getting pri 25. As many have said, a precendent was set with KA ground staff moving over to CX contracts and keeping their D.O.J.
Those that are citing precedent should also realise that should the seniority lists be combined, there is a couple of precedents of Cathay freighters, the former Air Hong Kong ( not DHL ), and Dragonair freighters being put on the bottom of the CX seniority list. The talk of a Y integration is not an option.
Those that are citing precedent should also realise that should the seniority lists be combined, there is a couple of precedents of Cathay freighters, the former Air Hong Kong ( not DHL ), and Dragonair freighters being put on the bottom of the CX seniority list. The talk of a Y integration is not an option.
Last edited by Forward CofG; 12th Feb 2016 at 13:24. Reason: Spelling
I know you are desperate to get off your rosters from hell and into the left hand seat of a 777
I've never heard of anyone at KA wanting recognition in regards to seniority to fly CX aircraft and nor should they. I do envision CX pilots progressing through KA for there initial upgrade after a stint as an SO at CX, Personally I think this is why CX has kicked off the Group Staff Travel.
I have good mates on the 777 and I see how broken some of them are. No thank you. China can be head bangingly frustrating but it's mostly a 9-5 job and I sleep pretty well. No aspirations for long haul at all.
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Damn Sam. You saw straight through my cunning plan. Everyone knows the best gig in the world is flying super long haul back of the clock CX 777. Look how happy and alert all the pilots are. That's why I joined a short haul Airbus operation all those years ago. Just so one day, through guile and deception, I could sneak my way onto a CX 777. Now you've blown my cover!!! Guess I'll just have to be content with getting my 20 sectors a month and being home with my family and in my own bed at night. Dang!!
OK Sam. I'll make a prediction. Can you get back to me in 12 months time and see if I'm right or not? Crystal ball time.
CX is hurting from crew shortage and training limitations and will seek a way around the problem.
CX will approach KA to do training for them. KA won't be keen on this. It will also be opposed by the AOA and DPA plus it will be seen as not very cost effective as there will be double training involved learning and unlearning KA procedures.
CX will see the best and cheapest option is once Cathay Dragon is launched they will transfer some aircraft, some short haul destinations and a couple of medium haul destinations to KA. This will alleviate the crew shortage plus decrease the demand for SO, FO upgrades.
KA will continue its policy of employing DEFOs with a plan to upgrade to command within 3 years.
The upshot will be there are pilots out there who are not yet employed by KA who will have a command with KA long before current FOs with CX get a shot at command.
Now I personally think that situation is wrong and that experienced CX FOs should be given the opportunity of command at KA if they choose. I know flying an A320 won't appeal to everyone. You can come to an agreement to protect your precious 777 slots. I'm sure there's a way. Y pattern integration would do it (for 15 years at least, and long after most of us old farts have left). This would also protect the current KA FOs as they would get first shot at a command when they were ready.
You can be a conspiracy theorist if you like but I think you are sticking your head in the sand.
Crystal ball has clouded over.
Oh and Betpump. I wasn't trying to be clownish or funny. I was simply trying to show the reality of the situation and cut through some of the hysteria. Some people out there will take what I wrote on board, some won't.
OK Sam. I'll make a prediction. Can you get back to me in 12 months time and see if I'm right or not? Crystal ball time.
CX is hurting from crew shortage and training limitations and will seek a way around the problem.
CX will approach KA to do training for them. KA won't be keen on this. It will also be opposed by the AOA and DPA plus it will be seen as not very cost effective as there will be double training involved learning and unlearning KA procedures.
CX will see the best and cheapest option is once Cathay Dragon is launched they will transfer some aircraft, some short haul destinations and a couple of medium haul destinations to KA. This will alleviate the crew shortage plus decrease the demand for SO, FO upgrades.
KA will continue its policy of employing DEFOs with a plan to upgrade to command within 3 years.
The upshot will be there are pilots out there who are not yet employed by KA who will have a command with KA long before current FOs with CX get a shot at command.
Now I personally think that situation is wrong and that experienced CX FOs should be given the opportunity of command at KA if they choose. I know flying an A320 won't appeal to everyone. You can come to an agreement to protect your precious 777 slots. I'm sure there's a way. Y pattern integration would do it (for 15 years at least, and long after most of us old farts have left). This would also protect the current KA FOs as they would get first shot at a command when they were ready.
You can be a conspiracy theorist if you like but I think you are sticking your head in the sand.
Crystal ball has clouded over.
Oh and Betpump. I wasn't trying to be clownish or funny. I was simply trying to show the reality of the situation and cut through some of the hysteria. Some people out there will take what I wrote on board, some won't.
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Good on ya Giggerty!
Honestly, if we could become more united as a pilot group, make it work for us long term, can't see the problem. A bigger airline, with more options and opportunities to fine tune ones family circumstances can only be better for everybody. And safer as well.
Honestly, if we could become more united as a pilot group, make it work for us long term, can't see the problem. A bigger airline, with more options and opportunities to fine tune ones family circumstances can only be better for everybody. And safer as well.
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The KA pilots on this thread have suddenly become CX managers, trying to sell this crap to CX pilots as a win win.
CX wins, KA pilots win. There is nothing positive about this for CX staff at all, and the reason it was done was to prevent CC by KA pilots over CNY.
It is nothing more than the continued degradation of T&Cs of CX staff, and it will continue.
CX wins, KA pilots win. There is nothing positive about this for CX staff at all, and the reason it was done was to prevent CC by KA pilots over CNY.
It is nothing more than the continued degradation of T&Cs of CX staff, and it will continue.
giggerty,
I truly hope that is not the genuine attitude of KA pilots and the DPA. The way you are going there will be an IFALPA recruitment ban at KA for systematically undermining your peers.
The reason why CX pilots are in contract compliance is over rostering, if it is bleeding obvious to you that pilots are f%%%ed, why is not bleeding obvious to the management?
The AOA representative were in "good faith" negotiations with the company over rostering. The "negotiator" from Cathay Canada spends the "good faith" session yelling and screaming at the HKAOA representatives, to managements surprise no progress is made. The comical management updates that come out blame the AOA representatives for not giving into the yelling, intimidation, and bullying. CX need to have someone in the room like they did for the Australian EBA negotiations that will actually engage in dialogue with the pilot representatives. One of the biggest excuses was the IT platform will not enable any flexibility. The same excuse has been used for over a decade.
There has never been any genuine action taken by the company to improve the rostering system to meet the size of the current operation. That same system is also the one being used for KA crews as well. If you ever go to crew control and see them use there system, it is slower than iPad1. There needs to be a drop of money on a rostering system that can actually cope with the size of the airline. This has an issue fora long time, and you should see the long list of excuses why it is not implemented.
The AOA was able to run an off the shelf live rostering system within a few weeks. Problem with that system is it would replace 40 odd staff in crew control and rostering, around 20 would remain. So those 60 self-serving people in the rostering kingdom have more control over the business process being implemented that the 10,000+ pilots and cabin crew who are affected by it.
Congratulations to those 60 staff have cost the company literally billions and have cause countless crews to be ill to protect their own jobs. We have non flying middle managers who don’t know what the AFTLs and CAD371 are that listen to the excuses. KPMG came in and told CX managers that the CX operation was "simple" compared to a lot of other airlines, and it would take next to no time to get a new system in place.
Why is the new system being actively implemented? Because it is convenient excuse to destroy our COS. CX did not get what it wanted, so it just terminated the rostering practices and now amends them how it sees fit.
Your frame of reference of "being home with my family and in my own bed at night" is going to get f%%%ed over by these same clowns. It is in the "group" playbook, you too will be absolutely f%%%ed for multiple WOLC flights, and when you start complaining the CX guys will be able to point back to this time and say because you did not stand up to this, you enabled your own demise by helping the “group” clowns systematically destroy the CX conditions.
How long do you think they will question why KA aircraft spend the night on the ground, when there are slots available at HKIA between midnight and 6 am? How long do you think they will say that KA pilots are 3-7 seven weeks less productive than other group employees and strip away your additional holidays ? How long do you think they will say that the KA housing benefits are 30-50% higher than the "group" and strip them away? How long do you think before they realize you are far less productive on a ASK/FTK level, and make you do more hours?
You are thinking they cannot do that, its in my COS ? Good laugh. They can drop a new contract over to you tomorrow, sign it, or leave in 12 weeks. That is the sort of integrity the "group" people you are dealing with, they have done it before.
So congratulations, as you said a Captain that has been at KA for 3 years can offload a 25 yr CX captain on CX metal. Hope the increases in the number of divorces, sickness, cancer, sleep disorders that you will get as a result of the rostering practices they will impose on you, and which you enabled was worth it.
The way to fix the structural issues at CX is not to use KA as a vehicle to bypass staff concerns, it is to urgently replace the rostering system to enable flexibility (and to have pilots and cabin crew in as part of the process). It is to remove the negotiator, and have someone there that will engage their staff.
That however will take leadership, and not management. A commodity that is not actively encouraged, you don't get a bonus for leading.
I truly hope that is not the genuine attitude of KA pilots and the DPA. The way you are going there will be an IFALPA recruitment ban at KA for systematically undermining your peers.
The reason why CX pilots are in contract compliance is over rostering, if it is bleeding obvious to you that pilots are f%%%ed, why is not bleeding obvious to the management?
The AOA representative were in "good faith" negotiations with the company over rostering. The "negotiator" from Cathay Canada spends the "good faith" session yelling and screaming at the HKAOA representatives, to managements surprise no progress is made. The comical management updates that come out blame the AOA representatives for not giving into the yelling, intimidation, and bullying. CX need to have someone in the room like they did for the Australian EBA negotiations that will actually engage in dialogue with the pilot representatives. One of the biggest excuses was the IT platform will not enable any flexibility. The same excuse has been used for over a decade.
There has never been any genuine action taken by the company to improve the rostering system to meet the size of the current operation. That same system is also the one being used for KA crews as well. If you ever go to crew control and see them use there system, it is slower than iPad1. There needs to be a drop of money on a rostering system that can actually cope with the size of the airline. This has an issue fora long time, and you should see the long list of excuses why it is not implemented.
The AOA was able to run an off the shelf live rostering system within a few weeks. Problem with that system is it would replace 40 odd staff in crew control and rostering, around 20 would remain. So those 60 self-serving people in the rostering kingdom have more control over the business process being implemented that the 10,000+ pilots and cabin crew who are affected by it.
Congratulations to those 60 staff have cost the company literally billions and have cause countless crews to be ill to protect their own jobs. We have non flying middle managers who don’t know what the AFTLs and CAD371 are that listen to the excuses. KPMG came in and told CX managers that the CX operation was "simple" compared to a lot of other airlines, and it would take next to no time to get a new system in place.
Why is the new system being actively implemented? Because it is convenient excuse to destroy our COS. CX did not get what it wanted, so it just terminated the rostering practices and now amends them how it sees fit.
Your frame of reference of "being home with my family and in my own bed at night" is going to get f%%%ed over by these same clowns. It is in the "group" playbook, you too will be absolutely f%%%ed for multiple WOLC flights, and when you start complaining the CX guys will be able to point back to this time and say because you did not stand up to this, you enabled your own demise by helping the “group” clowns systematically destroy the CX conditions.
How long do you think they will question why KA aircraft spend the night on the ground, when there are slots available at HKIA between midnight and 6 am? How long do you think they will say that KA pilots are 3-7 seven weeks less productive than other group employees and strip away your additional holidays ? How long do you think they will say that the KA housing benefits are 30-50% higher than the "group" and strip them away? How long do you think before they realize you are far less productive on a ASK/FTK level, and make you do more hours?
You are thinking they cannot do that, its in my COS ? Good laugh. They can drop a new contract over to you tomorrow, sign it, or leave in 12 weeks. That is the sort of integrity the "group" people you are dealing with, they have done it before.
So congratulations, as you said a Captain that has been at KA for 3 years can offload a 25 yr CX captain on CX metal. Hope the increases in the number of divorces, sickness, cancer, sleep disorders that you will get as a result of the rostering practices they will impose on you, and which you enabled was worth it.
The way to fix the structural issues at CX is not to use KA as a vehicle to bypass staff concerns, it is to urgently replace the rostering system to enable flexibility (and to have pilots and cabin crew in as part of the process). It is to remove the negotiator, and have someone there that will engage their staff.
That however will take leadership, and not management. A commodity that is not actively encouraged, you don't get a bonus for leading.
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How do you figure?
If you're referring to someone on KA using a PRI 11 but the CX person using PRI 25 then you aren't comparing apples are you!? A CX person with 12 months seniority could do the same...
TSIO
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How can a KA Captain with PRI 25 and 3 years seniority bump a CX person with PRI 25 and 30 years seniority? Within a ticket class DOJ wins, or have I got that wrong?
If you're referring to someone on KA using a PRI 11 but the CX person using PRI 25 then you aren't comparing apples are you!? A CX person with 12 months seniority could do the same...
TSIO
If you're referring to someone on KA using a PRI 11 but the CX person using PRI 25 then you aren't comparing apples are you!? A CX person with 12 months seniority could do the same...
TSIO
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A recruitment ban? Why not, it was so effective when you imposed one on yourselves. those guys are 777 captains now aren't they? I wonder if they are refusing themselves sectors... 
Effective plan?
KA tried it too, same success, all experienced long serving captains now.
pretty gutless imposing a restriction on the unemployed. Thats my personal opinion, DPA is very loyal to IFALPA.
Effective plan?KA tried it too, same success, all experienced long serving captains now.
pretty gutless imposing a restriction on the unemployed. Thats my personal opinion, DPA is very loyal to IFALPA.