Just Say No to Cathay - Here is why...
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 154
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From: the world
Frankg,
At what point do you say enough is enough and this ban isnt working. Given that there are 250 odd pilots to be recruited in the next year or two and if the ban stays in place all of these pilots will be non-union.
I am not sure if the exact numbers but you now have say 500 non-union and 800 union pilots and the non-union pilots growing by the day. Do you think the management are going to have trouble recruiting these pilots? Do you think management are going to be worried by the fact that they have succeeded in dividing the pilot group and breking the union? Dont you think that it would be better to fight this as a united group rather than a divided one.
It would appear that the ban is serving only to divide the union and surely it would be better to stay united and change tactics. Some battles are lost but winning the war is far more important.
At what point do you say enough is enough and this ban isnt working. Given that there are 250 odd pilots to be recruited in the next year or two and if the ban stays in place all of these pilots will be non-union.
I am not sure if the exact numbers but you now have say 500 non-union and 800 union pilots and the non-union pilots growing by the day. Do you think the management are going to have trouble recruiting these pilots? Do you think management are going to be worried by the fact that they have succeeded in dividing the pilot group and breking the union? Dont you think that it would be better to fight this as a united group rather than a divided one.
It would appear that the ban is serving only to divide the union and surely it would be better to stay united and change tactics. Some battles are lost but winning the war is far more important.
Joined: May 2002
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From: Australia
Just an Observation
Somewhere in the CX contract there may well be a clause to the effect that conduct which neglects the best interests of the company will lead to disciplinary measures?
Since the company have deemed it is in their best interests to recruit, anybody actively resisting this by intimidating behaviour towards new recruits, (and themselves creating a possible flight safety issue, not the recruit), must surely be setting themselves up to join the original 49?
Thus you will have even less AOA members. It can only end in tears if confrontation is seen as the only way, even if you do have a pathetic management team, they still call the shots in the end.
Since the company have deemed it is in their best interests to recruit, anybody actively resisting this by intimidating behaviour towards new recruits, (and themselves creating a possible flight safety issue, not the recruit), must surely be setting themselves up to join the original 49?
Thus you will have even less AOA members. It can only end in tears if confrontation is seen as the only way, even if you do have a pathetic management team, they still call the shots in the end.
Joined: May 2000
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From: the world
Kubota,
You seem to know the numbers. How many pilots are there in Cathay and how many in the union?
By the way the point I was trying to make is that the group that is non-union is growing by the day the group that is the union is remaining static or decreasing.
You seem to know the numbers. How many pilots are there in Cathay and how many in the union?
By the way the point I was trying to make is that the group that is non-union is growing by the day the group that is the union is remaining static or decreasing.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 1999
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The rights and wrongs are not that 'important' - someone who is considering joing needs to be more selfish than that. They need to ask themselves if they are going to be happy joining Cathay and becoming a management or AOA pawn.
This is the point that the AOA is trying to make in the warning copied at the top of this thread.
Morals aside, I am not sure I would want to be a passenger on an aircraft flown by someone that breaks the ban. It would be a very bold decision and you know what they say about 'Old and Bold Pilots'.
This is the point that the AOA is trying to make in the warning copied at the top of this thread.
..... HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked ....... With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. ....Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject.....and [this] is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
surely I would not like to be a pax on an aircraft commanded by someone childish enough to drag such refuse into the cockpit....which hopefully is a small minority at cx.....
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: the rez
Cathay Pacific is no longer a career airline. It is not a childish individual that "drags such refuse in the cockpit" It is someone who has been under constant attack from a despicable management for the better part of ten years. I don't know anyone at CX who is happy to be working there. Why not leave you say? Well there is the money, and the current job market.
It is painfully evident by the slouched shoulders and cast down eyes of the guys on their way to work. You can see it while having a coffee in the DB Plaza. Not one of them looks like they are enjoying the prospect of going to work. That is especially disheartening when you consider that flying airplanes is what we love to do.
A career airline has a structured path for progression, a credible D & G procedure - not a kangaroo court - and a management that is accountable for their actions. None of these exist at CX anymore. The management has been led to believe that busting the union and destroying the seniority system is the best way to run the airline. Much of the credit for this lies with a few individuals but one particularly despicable individual is the Zookeeper. He has systematically and insidiously attacked the Profession of Pilot (he isn't one), to the point where 19 out of 25 JF/Os did not upgrade to F/O in the last few months. This after all of them had successfully completed all of the required training and passed all their checks. The reasons for being denied promotion were as weak as not enough polish or we have to be careful because your crosswind limit goes up from 10 to 15 knots. 19 out of 25 denied upgrade. Seems when you remain a JF/O you save the company about HK$10,000 a month (salary only) for basically doing the same job. Yep that's a career alright, another year as a JF/O to polish up or work on that crosswind technique.
You want to join, by all means. I mean ban or no ban, do you really think it is wise to waste your time on a seniority list that means nothing? Is it wise to go through the upheaval of moving to HK only to find that it really is that bad?
For my money I wish I had spent the last ten years on someone else's seniority list because this one isn't worth the paper it is printed on.
It is painfully evident by the slouched shoulders and cast down eyes of the guys on their way to work. You can see it while having a coffee in the DB Plaza. Not one of them looks like they are enjoying the prospect of going to work. That is especially disheartening when you consider that flying airplanes is what we love to do.
A career airline has a structured path for progression, a credible D & G procedure - not a kangaroo court - and a management that is accountable for their actions. None of these exist at CX anymore. The management has been led to believe that busting the union and destroying the seniority system is the best way to run the airline. Much of the credit for this lies with a few individuals but one particularly despicable individual is the Zookeeper. He has systematically and insidiously attacked the Profession of Pilot (he isn't one), to the point where 19 out of 25 JF/Os did not upgrade to F/O in the last few months. This after all of them had successfully completed all of the required training and passed all their checks. The reasons for being denied promotion were as weak as not enough polish or we have to be careful because your crosswind limit goes up from 10 to 15 knots. 19 out of 25 denied upgrade. Seems when you remain a JF/O you save the company about HK$10,000 a month (salary only) for basically doing the same job. Yep that's a career alright, another year as a JF/O to polish up or work on that crosswind technique.
You want to join, by all means. I mean ban or no ban, do you really think it is wise to waste your time on a seniority list that means nothing? Is it wise to go through the upheaval of moving to HK only to find that it really is that bad?
For my money I wish I had spent the last ten years on someone else's seniority list because this one isn't worth the paper it is printed on.
Last edited by 6feetunder; 22nd June 2002 at 11:38.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: India
6fu:
Your above description of CX is one of an airline that pilots would be leaving in droves.
As they are not (at least not voluntarily), can we take this as proof that there is no better deal around?
Across all professions, how many people in the world do you think would like a better deal and can't get it?
Your above description of CX is one of an airline that pilots would be leaving in droves.
As they are not (at least not voluntarily), can we take this as proof that there is no better deal around?
Across all professions, how many people in the world do you think would like a better deal and can't get it?
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 27
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From: australia
For those who know the stories, truly ask yourself does the hkaoa really condone intimidation or does it just turn a blind eye to it when it is done in their favour. Seem to recall a certain court case for a non member capt. with 2 comittee mbrs present and the galley had a lovely handful of 49'ers. What could that achieve if anything accept for INTIMIDATION.
The list goes on but to those with half a brain in their heads i think they know the truth!
Question is, which side is better when it comes to dirty tactics and intimidation?]
Tough choice
The list goes on but to those with half a brain in their heads i think they know the truth!
Question is, which side is better when it comes to dirty tactics and intimidation?]
Tough choice
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,780
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From: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Disagree...it is childish and dangerous, and unprofessional to drag labor/ employer-employee disputes onto the flightdeck...it stops at the aircraft door period....has to...it cannot be allowed in anyway to affect the way the aircraft is operated, or fellow crewmembers are dealt with whilst performing their duties...social scenes, as you wish.....other wise the fight for safety and professionalism is pointless...
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,835
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From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Frankg,
So you are aware of the terrible job market in aviation at the moment. You know how many desperate out of work pilots there are. You would rather be working at Cathay then be out of a job. Yet STILL you support the ban which says these very same out of work pilots cannot join Cathay and have the job you are so glad to have!!
Please answer one simple question:-
DO YOU BELIEVE THE BAN WILL ACHIEVE THE AIM OF GETTING THE 49ERS THEIR JOBS BACK???
If the answer is no then SURLEY there is no point in continuing it!!
So you are aware of the terrible job market in aviation at the moment. You know how many desperate out of work pilots there are. You would rather be working at Cathay then be out of a job. Yet STILL you support the ban which says these very same out of work pilots cannot join Cathay and have the job you are so glad to have!!
Please answer one simple question:-
DO YOU BELIEVE THE BAN WILL ACHIEVE THE AIM OF GETTING THE 49ERS THEIR JOBS BACK???
If the answer is no then SURLEY there is no point in continuing it!!
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 658
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From: Established.
Have bitten my tongue long enough, here goes.
When this latest dung fight started I remember hearing the war cry "rostering, remuneration and benefits". Never was 49er part of the song. Unfortunately it is now the only song I hear. The 49er's are merely a casualty of war and should be treated as such. They are now however the major stumbling block which we continue to stumble on. Yes I have discussed this with several '49er's' as anonymous forums are generally a waste of time.
Before anyone votes for the next president ask him this. 'Dear Captain X, how are WE going to fund your plan for a resolution?'
Sadly by mistake, sacking 49 of my fellow workmates was a masterstroke by CX as my union lost focus immediately.
Please get back to the issues.
When this latest dung fight started I remember hearing the war cry "rostering, remuneration and benefits". Never was 49er part of the song. Unfortunately it is now the only song I hear. The 49er's are merely a casualty of war and should be treated as such. They are now however the major stumbling block which we continue to stumble on. Yes I have discussed this with several '49er's' as anonymous forums are generally a waste of time.
Before anyone votes for the next president ask him this. 'Dear Captain X, how are WE going to fund your plan for a resolution?'
Sadly by mistake, sacking 49 of my fellow workmates was a masterstroke by CX as my union lost focus immediately.
Please get back to the issues.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: the rez
Oh chosen one! If you are a member of the AOA then you will be able to visit the members area of the website and view the video presentations from each of the three candidates. Notice the incumbent focusses completely on the contract. Your Committee hasn't lost focus, maybe some of the members have. Time to get it back.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 24
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From: hong kong
boo!
frankg..... for someone who often claims to have his fingers on the AOA/cathay pulse, you sure scare easy!
DE skippers are for Air hkg, A300's...... due to start ops in a fortnight.
good thing too; if they had been mainline the AOA might have had that sinking feeling. rats from a sinking ship etc....nails, coffins etc sadly for the 49ers.......mostly fine chaps letdown by the failure of the union to drop the ban and negotiate.
still 1/7 rolls on, contract remains the same, no payrise, no change in allowances, no change in rostering....... no re-employed 49ers........................remind me again what we have achieved this last year???? oh, thats right, dilute our membership by 13%.
ps. you call everyone you dislike "nr", "nick" etc... dont bother, i'm sure at 0450 he is tucked up in bed laughing at us.
vote for reconciliation.... vote for mediation, vote for action.
DE skippers are for Air hkg, A300's...... due to start ops in a fortnight.
good thing too; if they had been mainline the AOA might have had that sinking feeling. rats from a sinking ship etc....nails, coffins etc sadly for the 49ers.......mostly fine chaps letdown by the failure of the union to drop the ban and negotiate.
still 1/7 rolls on, contract remains the same, no payrise, no change in allowances, no change in rostering....... no re-employed 49ers........................remind me again what we have achieved this last year???? oh, thats right, dilute our membership by 13%.
ps. you call everyone you dislike "nr", "nick" etc... dont bother, i'm sure at 0450 he is tucked up in bed laughing at us.
vote for reconciliation.... vote for mediation, vote for action.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 12
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Feedback from recruitment is that the ban is having a big effect - few good people turning up for interviews nevermind accepting jobs.
Has anyone actually been recruited since the initial baker's dozen?
The intimidation - most of the time low key - is not going away. Not sure it ever will. Even if it means being completely ignored for 4 days apart from the odd check list, this has a telling effect on people. Understand the first few are ready to walk. Bit late now if they want to work for another IFALPA company.
Sad.
Has anyone actually been recruited since the initial baker's dozen?
The intimidation - most of the time low key - is not going away. Not sure it ever will. Even if it means being completely ignored for 4 days apart from the odd check list, this has a telling effect on people. Understand the first few are ready to walk. Bit late now if they want to work for another IFALPA company.
Sad.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 15
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From: Sydney
Reality Tossers
Nice one realitycx!!!
Who's leg are you pulling? or better ...what are you pulling?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!
You really are good at employing boogie man techniques to try and deter new hires with your tales of cold shoulder treatment.
Again another mature one minded comment from you.
Ansett employee's
Kendell employee's
Hazelton employee's
Yep a real bad bunch to recruit from - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha NOT!!
This just keeps on getting better!!!!
FAN MAN
Who's leg are you pulling? or better ...what are you pulling?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!
You really are good at employing boogie man techniques to try and deter new hires with your tales of cold shoulder treatment.
Again another mature one minded comment from you.
Ansett employee's
Kendell employee's
Hazelton employee's
Yep a real bad bunch to recruit from - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha NOT!!
This just keeps on getting better!!!!
FAN MAN