Just Say No to Cathay - Here is why...
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Just Say No to Cathay - Here is why...
Below is a copy of a the information, which you can find here
The Cathay Pacific Recruitment Ban
Thank you for taking the time to find out more about the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) Recruitment Ban that has been enacted on recruitment into Cathay Pacific, and its subsidiaries VETA and USAB. Details of the ban are shown below. Please remember that joining Cathay while this ban is in place will not only affect your career with Cathay but also your ability to secure employment in other IFALPA affiliated airlines when you leave Cathay.
A New Career in New Surroundings
Joining a company like Cathay is an important step for you and your family. Every member of the HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) has taken this step and we understand many of the factors you may now be weighing up in deciding whether to join Cathay. We understand that it is a difficult decision, moving half way around the world to start a new career and what is bound to be a new sort of life in Hong Kong. As a direct entry Second Officer you will be based in Hong Kong from your date of joining. As a direct entry Freighter First Officer, you will be faced with the same prospect of a move to Hong Kong at some stage very early on in your career. New friends, new schools, new surroundings - change all round. Try as we do, as expatriates, to escape into our own space in Hong Kong, it is not always possible to do so. Hong Kong is a small place and the expatriate community is close knit.
Is a move to Cathay one that is likely to lead to happiness for you and your family? Is this a step you should sensibly take now? Are there alternatives? Only you can really judge. But we hope that you will make these judgments carefully and that your decision will be an informed one.
Intimidation of Replacement Workers
First of all, you should be assured that the HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked; even the best efforts of the company and the HKAOA may not be able to prevent incidents of this nature. Indeed, Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject. This is the first time he has communicated with us since 1999, and is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.
Unfortunately, the very nature of our job means that close cooperation in the form of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is required to perform our job. With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. Would you be happy to operate in this sort of environment? Never mind the tension that might exist outside of the operation. Most trips involve social time together with other crew members, even if it is conversation in the cruise or a meal together on a layover. For many people this aspect of the job is necessary relief from the long duty hours and separation from family that define a flying career with Cathay.
In the past, most pilots joining Cathay have done so after much research and many conversations with friends already in the airline. This has helped people make good decisions for themselves. Most people knew that they were going to fit in to the Cathay Pilot group. Given the requirement to move half way across the globe for a job, this was useful! How easy is it going to be to fit in now?
Putting the ban aside for a moment...
Regardless of the IFALPA ban, you should ask yourself if you want to join a company that has such a dreadful track record of employee relations. Amongst many other issues, you should know that:
There is little doubt that Cathay can progress towards a good future when the current dispute is amicably resolved. However, while the contribution of our members is little recognised and less and less rewarded, we urge you to consider carefully your decision to join Cathay with the IFALPA Recruitment Ban in force.
For more information, please contact us at the addresses and numbers below. Better still, call a friend at Cathay. You can also download a special report on our sacked colleagues entitled The 49ers in Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf).
Please be fully informed before making this important decision.
The HKAOA is doing all it can to resolve this difficult issue as quickly as possible. Please register with us at the email address below and we will advise you when the IFALPA Recruitment Ban is lifted. Once the Ban is lifted, you will be welcomed as a colleague and we can, together, look forward to a brighter future.
HKAOA Contact Information
HKAOA
5/F, Daily House
Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui
HONG KONG
Fax: +852 2736 0903
[email protected]
IFALPA Recruitment Ban
The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).
The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment commencing on or after 9th October 2001. The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s firing 51 Union pilots in July 2001. These pilots were terminated for no reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The intention of the ban is to maximise the pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of replacement pilots delays a successful resolution to the dispute.
The HKAOA will not provide support for replacement pilots in any circumstances whereby it would normally act on behalf of a member pilot. Such support is a major ingredient of a pilot’s airline career and includes assistance in case of accident or incident, discipline and grievance, legal representation in foreign countries, personal insurance, family support, salary negotiation and contract protection.
Should any pilot have questions relating to this ban, please contact the HKAOA.
The Cathay Pacific Recruitment Ban
Thank you for taking the time to find out more about the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) Recruitment Ban that has been enacted on recruitment into Cathay Pacific, and its subsidiaries VETA and USAB. Details of the ban are shown below. Please remember that joining Cathay while this ban is in place will not only affect your career with Cathay but also your ability to secure employment in other IFALPA affiliated airlines when you leave Cathay.
A New Career in New Surroundings
Joining a company like Cathay is an important step for you and your family. Every member of the HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) has taken this step and we understand many of the factors you may now be weighing up in deciding whether to join Cathay. We understand that it is a difficult decision, moving half way around the world to start a new career and what is bound to be a new sort of life in Hong Kong. As a direct entry Second Officer you will be based in Hong Kong from your date of joining. As a direct entry Freighter First Officer, you will be faced with the same prospect of a move to Hong Kong at some stage very early on in your career. New friends, new schools, new surroundings - change all round. Try as we do, as expatriates, to escape into our own space in Hong Kong, it is not always possible to do so. Hong Kong is a small place and the expatriate community is close knit.
Is a move to Cathay one that is likely to lead to happiness for you and your family? Is this a step you should sensibly take now? Are there alternatives? Only you can really judge. But we hope that you will make these judgments carefully and that your decision will be an informed one.
Intimidation of Replacement Workers
First of all, you should be assured that the HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked; even the best efforts of the company and the HKAOA may not be able to prevent incidents of this nature. Indeed, Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject. This is the first time he has communicated with us since 1999, and is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.
Unfortunately, the very nature of our job means that close cooperation in the form of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is required to perform our job. With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. Would you be happy to operate in this sort of environment? Never mind the tension that might exist outside of the operation. Most trips involve social time together with other crew members, even if it is conversation in the cruise or a meal together on a layover. For many people this aspect of the job is necessary relief from the long duty hours and separation from family that define a flying career with Cathay.
In the past, most pilots joining Cathay have done so after much research and many conversations with friends already in the airline. This has helped people make good decisions for themselves. Most people knew that they were going to fit in to the Cathay Pilot group. Given the requirement to move half way across the globe for a job, this was useful! How easy is it going to be to fit in now?
Putting the ban aside for a moment...
Regardless of the IFALPA ban, you should ask yourself if you want to join a company that has such a dreadful track record of employee relations. Amongst many other issues, you should know that:
- Those sacked were given no reasons for their dismissal. No effort was made to establish the good conduct or otherwise of those affected. This despite an agreed Disciplinary and Grievance Process. It is probable that this action would have been illegal in your home country.
- No demographic was safe from the recent terminations; victims ranged from the most junior first officer to senior check captains and even former managers
- There are many outstanding flight safety issues that remain unresolved, due to management’s refusal to talk to the HKAOA.
- Management is attempting to terminate the most basic agreements on housing, medical, education and basings. These are vitally important aspects of our members’ conditions of service, which affect all pilots working for Cathay, whether based in their home country or based in Hong Kong. Fundamental to any decision whether or not to join Cathay, management now believe that these items are no longer contractual and can be varied at their sole discretion.
There is little doubt that Cathay can progress towards a good future when the current dispute is amicably resolved. However, while the contribution of our members is little recognised and less and less rewarded, we urge you to consider carefully your decision to join Cathay with the IFALPA Recruitment Ban in force.
For more information, please contact us at the addresses and numbers below. Better still, call a friend at Cathay. You can also download a special report on our sacked colleagues entitled The 49ers in Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf).
Please be fully informed before making this important decision.
The HKAOA is doing all it can to resolve this difficult issue as quickly as possible. Please register with us at the email address below and we will advise you when the IFALPA Recruitment Ban is lifted. Once the Ban is lifted, you will be welcomed as a colleague and we can, together, look forward to a brighter future.
HKAOA Contact Information
HKAOA
5/F, Daily House
Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui
HONG KONG
Fax: +852 2736 0903
[email protected]
IFALPA Recruitment Ban
The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).
The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment commencing on or after 9th October 2001. The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s firing 51 Union pilots in July 2001. These pilots were terminated for no reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The intention of the ban is to maximise the pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of replacement pilots delays a successful resolution to the dispute.
The HKAOA will not provide support for replacement pilots in any circumstances whereby it would normally act on behalf of a member pilot. Such support is a major ingredient of a pilot’s airline career and includes assistance in case of accident or incident, discipline and grievance, legal representation in foreign countries, personal insurance, family support, salary negotiation and contract protection.
Should any pilot have questions relating to this ban, please contact the HKAOA.
Last edited by realitycx; 19th Jun 2002 at 13:02.
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Taking the jobs of the sacked?
Sorry, it has been said before but how can a brand new S/O or F/O be taking the job of a sacked Captain? The guy that accepts the upgrade to fill the gap is one who has done that, thus filling the vacancy, no place for the sacked pilot to come back to now, it has been taken by an upgrader.
Difficult to see how you can hope to get your point across to CX wannabees if internally you are not abiding by the same rules.
Difficult to see how you can hope to get your point across to CX wannabees if internally you are not abiding by the same rules.
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HYPOCRACY.... THIS IS WHY........
Unfortunately because every eligible person in Cathay has accepted an up-grade and that no pilot what so ever in CX has taken a stand against the acts of management in the case of the 49’ers, the requests of the HKAOA will never be respected or complied with by potential new hires, nor are these requests respected by fellow aviators abroad due to the nature of this dispute.
Just look at the pole of votes on previous forums to see what the majority view is.
Friends / workmates and colleges alike cannot even stand for their own friends who were sacked but they still ask for help from complete strangers to refuse employment in such a hypocritical situation , some of whom are un-employed with mouths to feed.
Cathay Pacific need to recruit 250 people in he next 18 months , also additional pilots over the next few years due to retirement’s. Every Single one of these positions will be filled with ease.
So you read indirect idle threats on an anonymous internet forum about harassment and an unwelcome reception, phone calls of abuse from people who are too weak and narrow minded to stand for what they believe.
Again these people ask for everything and give nothing in return, resorting to school bullie tactics to try and deter employment and win their plea’s.
Soon there will be 250 – 400 people who are new joiners to have a beer with, additionally many of the Cathay pilots do not support the ban in place and many will still welcome you. As you will see there are the same old minority on this forum saying the same old things with the same old chips on their shoulders.
It’s a shame that so called professionals are acting in such childish ways , with outrageous demands.
Fan Man
Just look at the pole of votes on previous forums to see what the majority view is.
Friends / workmates and colleges alike cannot even stand for their own friends who were sacked but they still ask for help from complete strangers to refuse employment in such a hypocritical situation , some of whom are un-employed with mouths to feed.
Cathay Pacific need to recruit 250 people in he next 18 months , also additional pilots over the next few years due to retirement’s. Every Single one of these positions will be filled with ease.
So you read indirect idle threats on an anonymous internet forum about harassment and an unwelcome reception, phone calls of abuse from people who are too weak and narrow minded to stand for what they believe.
Again these people ask for everything and give nothing in return, resorting to school bullie tactics to try and deter employment and win their plea’s.
Soon there will be 250 – 400 people who are new joiners to have a beer with, additionally many of the Cathay pilots do not support the ban in place and many will still welcome you. As you will see there are the same old minority on this forum saying the same old things with the same old chips on their shoulders.
It’s a shame that so called professionals are acting in such childish ways , with outrageous demands.
Fan Man
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"Should you have any questions..." You can ask them but they won't be answered. I e-mailed them the other day with a few specific questions and was told they did not have time to reply to my e-mail. Great- they have a ban which is seriously affecting my career but they don't have time to answer my questions!? Being a member of an IFALPA affiliated union, as far as I'm concerned they have a duty to answer my questions.
By their own argument the ban was implemented as a result of the 49 guys being fired. Fair enough, but does that mean the ban will lifted once the 49th guy has broken it? I can't see how no.50 will be replacing a 49-er. The AOA can't answer that question either.
It is also stated that the AOA is doing everything to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. I'd love to know what because at the moment from what I can gather the only thing they are doing is using my career and going about their day to day lives. Checking on the AOA website, the 'latest' piece of info is dated somewhere in April if I remember correctly. This ban is going to go on for a long time at this rate. I can't see how Cathay management will come to the table because at the moment they are still finding guys to fill the courses and they are not being hurt in any other way. So it seems for them it's business as usual. On this I could also get no answer to my questions.
Speaking to friends in Cathay( pre-ban) they all say I should change my no to a yes. This apparently is also what is said by other more senior guys in the company. So it seems the AOA line is that of a few operating on their own. I have also spoken to guys I know who are post ban. None have reported any trouble or unpleasantness and have been there now from just after the ban was implemented.
I think this ban started off well and if the AOA was seen to be taking other courses of action then perhaps it would be working but I am considering changing my no to a yes. The AOA are not answering my questions, keeping me informed, they don't seem to be taking any other action- so this thing is going to go on for ever, I would not be a 49 or below ban breaker(never mind how a SO fills a FO or Capt position- but thats another issue) , and those that I know who have broken the ban have had no trouble at all.
Why should'nt I?
By their own argument the ban was implemented as a result of the 49 guys being fired. Fair enough, but does that mean the ban will lifted once the 49th guy has broken it? I can't see how no.50 will be replacing a 49-er. The AOA can't answer that question either.
It is also stated that the AOA is doing everything to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. I'd love to know what because at the moment from what I can gather the only thing they are doing is using my career and going about their day to day lives. Checking on the AOA website, the 'latest' piece of info is dated somewhere in April if I remember correctly. This ban is going to go on for a long time at this rate. I can't see how Cathay management will come to the table because at the moment they are still finding guys to fill the courses and they are not being hurt in any other way. So it seems for them it's business as usual. On this I could also get no answer to my questions.
Speaking to friends in Cathay( pre-ban) they all say I should change my no to a yes. This apparently is also what is said by other more senior guys in the company. So it seems the AOA line is that of a few operating on their own. I have also spoken to guys I know who are post ban. None have reported any trouble or unpleasantness and have been there now from just after the ban was implemented.
I think this ban started off well and if the AOA was seen to be taking other courses of action then perhaps it would be working but I am considering changing my no to a yes. The AOA are not answering my questions, keeping me informed, they don't seem to be taking any other action- so this thing is going to go on for ever, I would not be a 49 or below ban breaker(never mind how a SO fills a FO or Capt position- but thats another issue) , and those that I know who have broken the ban have had no trouble at all.
Why should'nt I?
Join Date: May 2002
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life in hkg is still very fine indeed BUT mr bm### dont be fooled by any/all propoganda.
the aoa spins it, so does the company and so it would seem do your friends the 'new joiners'. there have been issues! late night faxes, 'scab' written on lockers...hell even the aoa has written to each individual and told them they a hazard to flight safety.
... now there is a quality piece of work. full of spelling mistakes, errors and omissions. the 3rd reich would have been loving the spin. not to mention the change of person midway through... as if written over a few days, or by several contributors.
be fooled not. this is an issue! the company screwed up sacking the '49ers'...... but yes many of us agree that targeting the new chaps is wrong (esp when the masses are unwilling to stand up and be counted)
what annoys me though is:
a recent aoa letter in which the assist gen sec states that flight safety is compromised by the "replacement workers". in doing so the aoa implies that the "replacement workers", mere SOs, somehow have the controlling hand or intimidate the old hands... what tosh! perhaps most sad is the implication that their own members are somehow excused from being professional.
having been on the flightdeck and witnessed one of these encounters i can confidently say that the aoa boys remained professional throughout.... hopefully not disappointing their leaders who seem to have little confidence in their ability to do so.
its seems that no matter what the aoa do, they just keep shooting themselves in the foot. roll on the elections, lets vote for some level headed leadership......
finally lets reflect again on the spin in the original document. remember that 35 of the '49ers' were offered their jobs back. the aoa turned this down........... stubboness exists on both sides!
the aoa spins it, so does the company and so it would seem do your friends the 'new joiners'. there have been issues! late night faxes, 'scab' written on lockers...hell even the aoa has written to each individual and told them they a hazard to flight safety.
... now there is a quality piece of work. full of spelling mistakes, errors and omissions. the 3rd reich would have been loving the spin. not to mention the change of person midway through... as if written over a few days, or by several contributors.
be fooled not. this is an issue! the company screwed up sacking the '49ers'...... but yes many of us agree that targeting the new chaps is wrong (esp when the masses are unwilling to stand up and be counted)
what annoys me though is:
a recent aoa letter in which the assist gen sec states that flight safety is compromised by the "replacement workers". in doing so the aoa implies that the "replacement workers", mere SOs, somehow have the controlling hand or intimidate the old hands... what tosh! perhaps most sad is the implication that their own members are somehow excused from being professional.
having been on the flightdeck and witnessed one of these encounters i can confidently say that the aoa boys remained professional throughout.... hopefully not disappointing their leaders who seem to have little confidence in their ability to do so.
its seems that no matter what the aoa do, they just keep shooting themselves in the foot. roll on the elections, lets vote for some level headed leadership......
finally lets reflect again on the spin in the original document. remember that 35 of the '49ers' were offered their jobs back. the aoa turned this down........... stubboness exists on both sides!
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Spoilt Brat Syndrome
Yes I agree the pole of votes are from again an anonymous internet forum but it still represents a point of view from fellow aviators.
27.97 % Think the ban is fair
44.92% Think the ban is only fair if an up-grade ban is included
27.12% Think the ban is unfair
Anonymous or not it is still n expression of peoples views and it clearly shows how “people” in general are feeling. From this forum and from the pole it shows that "because" upgrades were taken, the ban is clearly thought of as being un-fair.
I agree whole heartedly with this.
Speaking with some friends at CX again the majority do not have a problem with second officers, again and again and again because it is generally seen by fellow aviators abroad as being unfair.
All the excuses in the world from die hard unionists will not dissolve this in the eye’s of the general aviation community. The old union sayings go “united we stand divided we fall”. Again let me express , no body stood tall , you’re already divided and in this case you are going to fall.
These last minute dibs trying to scare off young blokes wont work , and unless you do something to get them on-side in the near future , you really will be a weak and divided group of people with conflicting bargaining ability.
Wake up and respect the fact that this time guys you’ve stuffed it up, you got it wrong the world see’s you all as hypocrites – get the new guys on side , vote the new president in and work as a team, start on a new drawing board with a fresh set of mature tactics.
Not only are you shooting yourselves in the foot but you’re making life at work and around your friends and families very miserable , childish and boring. Acting like a spoilt brat throwing a tantrum isn’t going to get you what you want.
Some times in life you just have to start a fresh , now’s a good time to do it after the elections.
Regards,
FAN MAN
27.97 % Think the ban is fair
44.92% Think the ban is only fair if an up-grade ban is included
27.12% Think the ban is unfair
Anonymous or not it is still n expression of peoples views and it clearly shows how “people” in general are feeling. From this forum and from the pole it shows that "because" upgrades were taken, the ban is clearly thought of as being un-fair.
I agree whole heartedly with this.
Speaking with some friends at CX again the majority do not have a problem with second officers, again and again and again because it is generally seen by fellow aviators abroad as being unfair.
All the excuses in the world from die hard unionists will not dissolve this in the eye’s of the general aviation community. The old union sayings go “united we stand divided we fall”. Again let me express , no body stood tall , you’re already divided and in this case you are going to fall.
These last minute dibs trying to scare off young blokes wont work , and unless you do something to get them on-side in the near future , you really will be a weak and divided group of people with conflicting bargaining ability.
Wake up and respect the fact that this time guys you’ve stuffed it up, you got it wrong the world see’s you all as hypocrites – get the new guys on side , vote the new president in and work as a team, start on a new drawing board with a fresh set of mature tactics.
Not only are you shooting yourselves in the foot but you’re making life at work and around your friends and families very miserable , childish and boring. Acting like a spoilt brat throwing a tantrum isn’t going to get you what you want.
Some times in life you just have to start a fresh , now’s a good time to do it after the elections.
Regards,
FAN MAN
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You obviously aren't acquainted even remotely with any of the sacked pilots Fan Man. The statistics you quote are largely from pilots outside of CX. Your few anecdotes about "a guy I know there" don't reflect the majority in the airline. Granted the ban doesn't seem fair but the majority of the members of the AOA will not forsake their colleagues, they will not "move on" and hang them out to dry.
Think about it, put yourself in the shoes of a CX pilot who has a couple of friends that have been victimised. Could you forget about them? If you could then I am glad I am not your friend.
Think about it, put yourself in the shoes of a CX pilot who has a couple of friends that have been victimised. Could you forget about them? If you could then I am glad I am not your friend.
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6feetunder,
Just to help clarify a few things. The display of votes in favour of the ban was not meant to represent members of Cathay directly, but how the aviation community view this difficult problem.
To say for the record : I do believe the 49’ers were treated unjustly , I do feel there has to be some resolution for the people in mention.
You mentioned “Granted the ban doesn’t seem fair”, again people have moved on because they have taken up-grades , so effectively they have hung their colleagues out to dry. Your words not mine.
The fact that when the ban was first imposed upgrades were still made available ruined any chance of a swift resolution from day one.
No ones forgoten about their friends as far as I know , but because no one has actually made a serious sacrifice for the sake of their collegues , the community view this in a very different light. Asking for everything giving nothing.
There are always two sides to a coin and from outside of Cathay people are looking at the situation as objectively as possible. We know the facts because you guys spell them out on pprune week after week. Unfortunately those trying to enforce a recruitment ban are not looking at things objectively , their only excuse is ”well there’s a ban so you must abide by it”, how can anyone abide by something which is unfair or unjust? It’s so unfair it’s almost as unjust as the retrenchments in mention.
If the AOA told you to jump off a bridge would you? I don’t think so, make you own minds up be real.
Until you all start being real about this , you wont receive much help or assistance from your fellow aviators.
My advice is that you go back to the drawing board – these 250 or so positions will fill up quite quickly , you’ll need their help if you want bargaining power over the next few years.
I’ve been in this game a long long time I’m trying to offer constructive criticism and a point of view to try and put things into prospective.
FAN MAN
Just to help clarify a few things. The display of votes in favour of the ban was not meant to represent members of Cathay directly, but how the aviation community view this difficult problem.
To say for the record : I do believe the 49’ers were treated unjustly , I do feel there has to be some resolution for the people in mention.
You mentioned “Granted the ban doesn’t seem fair”, again people have moved on because they have taken up-grades , so effectively they have hung their colleagues out to dry. Your words not mine.
The fact that when the ban was first imposed upgrades were still made available ruined any chance of a swift resolution from day one.
No ones forgoten about their friends as far as I know , but because no one has actually made a serious sacrifice for the sake of their collegues , the community view this in a very different light. Asking for everything giving nothing.
There are always two sides to a coin and from outside of Cathay people are looking at the situation as objectively as possible. We know the facts because you guys spell them out on pprune week after week. Unfortunately those trying to enforce a recruitment ban are not looking at things objectively , their only excuse is ”well there’s a ban so you must abide by it”, how can anyone abide by something which is unfair or unjust? It’s so unfair it’s almost as unjust as the retrenchments in mention.
If the AOA told you to jump off a bridge would you? I don’t think so, make you own minds up be real.
Until you all start being real about this , you wont receive much help or assistance from your fellow aviators.
My advice is that you go back to the drawing board – these 250 or so positions will fill up quite quickly , you’ll need their help if you want bargaining power over the next few years.
I’ve been in this game a long long time I’m trying to offer constructive criticism and a point of view to try and put things into prospective.
FAN MAN
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THE FAN MAM.
"We know the facts because you guys spell them out on pprune week after week."
Yup this forum is full of facts. No Freehills here. No desperate managers here telling you it's okay to join because I did and I'm okay.
FACT. There is an IFALPA ban in place for good reasons. Be guided accordingly.
"We know the facts because you guys spell them out on pprune week after week."
Yup this forum is full of facts. No Freehills here. No desperate managers here telling you it's okay to join because I did and I'm okay.
FACT. There is an IFALPA ban in place for good reasons. Be guided accordingly.
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franky baby
my comment on some 49ers being offered their job back and your reply just serve to prove my point....... it depends whose spin you choose to believe the most!
likewise, in the initial post the AOA are now claiming that the company hasn't spoken to them since 1999. (thats just spin.... does spoken, include all contact? surely not talks about talks then?)
so much spin its not hard to get dizzy.
fan man........ you speak sense. no hope for you here.
bm###: elections and agm on 9 july. the emotive 1st anniversary of the firings!
union and non-union alike, support the 49ers. the company was/is morally wrong (although legally [at least in china] in the right)
the only question that need be asked is "are the 49ers better off 12 months down the track?" answer no! and how could they be if the company and aoa wont talk. talks would start tomorrow if the aoa drop this silly ban......... result: union is unified, 49ers go through DGP. some will be re-employed.
the current committee has failed to achieve any gains in the last 12mths, it is failing the 49ers. 19th century union tactics will not work in the face of a union bust. the aoa is helping the company by dividing the pilot body with this ban (a ban no one, at any time, has effectively justified)..........and divided they will fall.
lets get it together lads/ladies. vote to drop the ban, vote to unify the union/pilot body.....vote to do something effective for the 49ers...... vote to talk to the company.
nudger: stop being so paranoid! how do you get out of bed? maybe the freehills boys are spying on you too! the might be bugging you cornflakes. watch out man, they're everywhere. (i'm not saying break the ban...... i am saying the ban is self defeating.)
perhaps time for a poll: who at cathay has the balls to strike? to risk it all in support of their yellow ribboned fallen colleagues....no-one! so stop the mightier than thou speeches and lets be constructive not devisive
likewise, in the initial post the AOA are now claiming that the company hasn't spoken to them since 1999. (thats just spin.... does spoken, include all contact? surely not talks about talks then?)
so much spin its not hard to get dizzy.
fan man........ you speak sense. no hope for you here.
bm###: elections and agm on 9 july. the emotive 1st anniversary of the firings!
union and non-union alike, support the 49ers. the company was/is morally wrong (although legally [at least in china] in the right)
the only question that need be asked is "are the 49ers better off 12 months down the track?" answer no! and how could they be if the company and aoa wont talk. talks would start tomorrow if the aoa drop this silly ban......... result: union is unified, 49ers go through DGP. some will be re-employed.
the current committee has failed to achieve any gains in the last 12mths, it is failing the 49ers. 19th century union tactics will not work in the face of a union bust. the aoa is helping the company by dividing the pilot body with this ban (a ban no one, at any time, has effectively justified)..........and divided they will fall.
lets get it together lads/ladies. vote to drop the ban, vote to unify the union/pilot body.....vote to do something effective for the 49ers...... vote to talk to the company.
nudger: stop being so paranoid! how do you get out of bed? maybe the freehills boys are spying on you too! the might be bugging you cornflakes. watch out man, they're everywhere. (i'm not saying break the ban...... i am saying the ban is self defeating.)
perhaps time for a poll: who at cathay has the balls to strike? to risk it all in support of their yellow ribboned fallen colleagues....no-one! so stop the mightier than thou speeches and lets be constructive not devisive
Last edited by whistlingdixy; 18th Jun 2002 at 11:14.
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Typhoon Selfish
Nudger,
No facts hey nudger? Well why do the AOA have recruitment ban links and advertisements? What is the information at the top of this page? Why are all the posts on here explaining the situation of the 49’ers?
I can find enough information on here to make me feel ill for a week!!!
“FACT. There is an IFALPA ban in place for good reasons. Be guided accordingly.”
QUOTE : “ FOR GOOD REASONS? “
Translation : for one eyed selfish people that give nothing ask for everything
QUOTE : “ Be guided accordingly “
Translation : watch out guys or we’ll call you up at night and call you names , but don’t worry our mates who took upgrades, we’ll just go buy them another beer down at the Fong.
Sometimes I actually think I’m reading a comedy script when I read some of the garbage you gentleman write.
I’ve never wanted to write on this forum but over the last few days I was compelled to put my views forward. This whole Cathay thing is just driving me up the wall.
When are you people going to see the light?
People are leaving the union
New people are joining not in the union
You’re slowly becoming more and more divided – wake up and smell the coffee guys.
Change tactics for you own sake.
Take a shot of penicillin and get well all of you.
FAN MAN.
No facts hey nudger? Well why do the AOA have recruitment ban links and advertisements? What is the information at the top of this page? Why are all the posts on here explaining the situation of the 49’ers?
I can find enough information on here to make me feel ill for a week!!!
“FACT. There is an IFALPA ban in place for good reasons. Be guided accordingly.”
QUOTE : “ FOR GOOD REASONS? “
Translation : for one eyed selfish people that give nothing ask for everything
QUOTE : “ Be guided accordingly “
Translation : watch out guys or we’ll call you up at night and call you names , but don’t worry our mates who took upgrades, we’ll just go buy them another beer down at the Fong.
Sometimes I actually think I’m reading a comedy script when I read some of the garbage you gentleman write.
I’ve never wanted to write on this forum but over the last few days I was compelled to put my views forward. This whole Cathay thing is just driving me up the wall.
When are you people going to see the light?
People are leaving the union
New people are joining not in the union
You’re slowly becoming more and more divided – wake up and smell the coffee guys.
Change tactics for you own sake.
Take a shot of penicillin and get well all of you.
FAN MAN.
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If you're so smart there Fan Man, go on up to HK and offer your superior skills and expertise to those selfish ignorant union types at the AOA. I'm sure they could use the help, they are obviously a bunch of incompetent bumbling fools. Go on up there and straighten them out, there's a good fella.
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Union- to protect and further the interests of IT'S members. Not possible future members. The HKAOA has done everything in it's power to protect those that were undeniably terminated as an industrial tool almost 1 year ago (july 09, 2001). The people that are going on and on about this ban are doing so because somehow it's in their best interest to have it removed. Applicant, Management, whoever. When it's in my 49 colleagues best interests to have it removed, it will be removed, until then it's realy quite simple. JOIN or DON'T.
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It isn't in MY best interest to have the ban removed, I'm happy where I am (elsewhere). But on the face of it, I'd have to agree, this ban is a crock of *****. The older guys intimidating the younger, more junior pilots who have more to lose with the middle ranks sliding up the greasey pole under the cover of the smoke screen. Nice.
IFALPA Black Ban
The number and vehemence of many of the responses to the subject post is rather telling. They would tend to indicate that the IFALPA Black Ban on CX recruitment of pilots has been very effective.
Other sources also indicate that the IFALPA Black Ban will continue to be an effective tool which will eventually force management to talk to its' pilot union.
Other sources also indicate that the IFALPA Black Ban will continue to be an effective tool which will eventually force management to talk to its' pilot union.
The only way the ban could be judged to be effective is if it was stopping recruitment.
It isn't.
It IS supplying the HKAOA with a supply of scapegoats. They themselves have written to the new recruits stating that the situation THEY have precipitated is a saftey hazard.
The entire thrust of this action has shifted from the management (Who, I entirely agree, need a very large going over) to the newcomers.
My first and over-riding objection to this ban was that it would not work, and it hasn't.
My second and very sincere concern is that it would turn a group of guys who, through no fault of their own were put in a very difficult position and made a pretty gutsy choice, into a persecuted underclass, blamed for consequences not of their making.
This is also coming to pass.
Frankg mentioned the 89ers and what they've "Learned from experience". The 89ers learned how to lay the blame for their predicament at the feet of everyone except themselves, and comprehensivley lose their fight whilst clinging to the belief that they held the moral high ground.
The HKAOA seems to be following their example.
It isn't.
It IS supplying the HKAOA with a supply of scapegoats. They themselves have written to the new recruits stating that the situation THEY have precipitated is a saftey hazard.
The entire thrust of this action has shifted from the management (Who, I entirely agree, need a very large going over) to the newcomers.
My first and over-riding objection to this ban was that it would not work, and it hasn't.
My second and very sincere concern is that it would turn a group of guys who, through no fault of their own were put in a very difficult position and made a pretty gutsy choice, into a persecuted underclass, blamed for consequences not of their making.
This is also coming to pass.
Frankg mentioned the 89ers and what they've "Learned from experience". The 89ers learned how to lay the blame for their predicament at the feet of everyone except themselves, and comprehensivley lose their fight whilst clinging to the belief that they held the moral high ground.
The HKAOA seems to be following their example.