Just Say No to Cathay - Here is why...
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shortly
Don't hold your breath waiting....blue color might result.
It would appear that at least a small number in the AOA, which seemingly have control over the majority, want nothing less than total capitulation by CX management.
Certainly won't happen in their collective lifetimes, IMHO.
Don't hold your breath waiting....blue color might result.
It would appear that at least a small number in the AOA, which seemingly have control over the majority, want nothing less than total capitulation by CX management.
Certainly won't happen in their collective lifetimes, IMHO.
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The original "49+" are cannon fodder...gone forever, like WW I recruits...whether the AOA like it or not. In addition, CX management has "NO incentive" to even talk to the AOA, let alone make ammends. So, a stalemate continues...
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IMHO
411A
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. It will ramp up again in two years but with a lot more militant guys in the left seat. Settle the issues now and everybody will get on with life. But believe me it is far from over. Patience's my friend.
Remember we are all pilots and want a contract. I does not matter what is in it, but we want a contract. We can't live on a 3-month rolling contract. We need something on paper where we can plan our lives. I don't think that is too much to ask.
I would like to buy a house and have a secure income two-five years down the road so I know I will make the payments. Yes I know you think we are all paid too much, but you get what you pay for.
Don't get me wrong, CX can be a great company to work for, BUT for very little money/rostering it can be great. I myself have a lot of ideas that will help out the company and cost nothing which will improve rosters and help the company with productivity.
Hey I don't mind working (I worked a hell of a lot harder not doing Pilot jobs), but when you put me to work, do it efficiently. I have a life too. I don't mind working hard.
You are so anti pilot, I wonder if you are a pilot (or an accountant).
Help your employees and they will do a hell of a lot of work for you.
IMHO of course.
Regards,
B25
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. It will ramp up again in two years but with a lot more militant guys in the left seat. Settle the issues now and everybody will get on with life. But believe me it is far from over. Patience's my friend.
Remember we are all pilots and want a contract. I does not matter what is in it, but we want a contract. We can't live on a 3-month rolling contract. We need something on paper where we can plan our lives. I don't think that is too much to ask.
I would like to buy a house and have a secure income two-five years down the road so I know I will make the payments. Yes I know you think we are all paid too much, but you get what you pay for.
Don't get me wrong, CX can be a great company to work for, BUT for very little money/rostering it can be great. I myself have a lot of ideas that will help out the company and cost nothing which will improve rosters and help the company with productivity.
Hey I don't mind working (I worked a hell of a lot harder not doing Pilot jobs), but when you put me to work, do it efficiently. I have a life too. I don't mind working hard.
You are so anti pilot, I wonder if you are a pilot (or an accountant).
Help your employees and they will do a hell of a lot of work for you.
IMHO of course.
Regards,
B25
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Bengi, good post couldn't agree more. This skirmish is about played out but the issues behind can be kept for a better day. 411A, my goodness man you really try hard to stir the pot don't you. There have been permanent tragedies already amongst the 49ers, let alone the pain, anguish and sadness among the 49ers and their families. A childish comparison between the WW I recruits and the 49ers is no analogy at all and a miserably pathetic example of your twisted and convoluted logic. The election is soon, how about you do us a favour and leave us alone for a bit. There are for and against opinions expressed here, and usually quite reasonably too. We don't need your ill thought out, short sighted, racist, sexist, ageist and nonsensical opinion. But thank you for posting anyway, we all hope you'll fly again soon. And, careful, Bengi remember which body part won the I rule the body contest, lol.
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bengi25
Yes, would agree that the CX guys need a contract (three years would be reasonable)...and no they are not paid too much, they just do not deserve more. And, rostering could be improved, for both the pilots and the company.
However, the CX pilots I have met (mostly in FRA & NRT) have had the inflated opinion that they are "the best", no other airline can compare to the "most experienced, best trained, most talented" flight crew that CX has. Of course this is a load of BS, and can be accounted for by the amount of beer consumed by the "most experienced, best trained etc...)
Inflated egos do not present much of an impression to airline management and indeed the AOA has now found this out...much to their collective dismay, i'm sure. Attitude is most important, and the AOA guys just do not measure up in this department...or perhaps they have far to much "attitude". And the "ban" nonsense makes their whole cause look ridiculous.
shortly
Don't stir the pot....just the facts. Lets hope that the upcoming "elections" will bring better results.
Yes, would agree that the CX guys need a contract (three years would be reasonable)...and no they are not paid too much, they just do not deserve more. And, rostering could be improved, for both the pilots and the company.
However, the CX pilots I have met (mostly in FRA & NRT) have had the inflated opinion that they are "the best", no other airline can compare to the "most experienced, best trained, most talented" flight crew that CX has. Of course this is a load of BS, and can be accounted for by the amount of beer consumed by the "most experienced, best trained etc...)
Inflated egos do not present much of an impression to airline management and indeed the AOA has now found this out...much to their collective dismay, i'm sure. Attitude is most important, and the AOA guys just do not measure up in this department...or perhaps they have far to much "attitude". And the "ban" nonsense makes their whole cause look ridiculous.
shortly
Don't stir the pot....just the facts. Lets hope that the upcoming "elections" will bring better results.
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Bengi:
Your points well taken, BUT:
Everybody wants a secure income 2 - 5 years down the road, and you can look at any industry/profession and end up realizing that uncertainty is the name of the game.
What is preferable: a three-month rolling contract or one where you can be fired at one month's notice (not unheard of in many parts of the world)?
Given current economic circumstances and market value of airline pilots, the deal at CX appears to be sufficiently attractive to not only retain pilots but, moreover, to attract new recruits.
You cannot argue with the market in the long run. This is a core value the HKAOA has yet to absorb.
Your points well taken, BUT:
Everybody wants a secure income 2 - 5 years down the road, and you can look at any industry/profession and end up realizing that uncertainty is the name of the game.
What is preferable: a three-month rolling contract or one where you can be fired at one month's notice (not unheard of in many parts of the world)?
Given current economic circumstances and market value of airline pilots, the deal at CX appears to be sufficiently attractive to not only retain pilots but, moreover, to attract new recruits.
You cannot argue with the market in the long run. This is a core value the HKAOA has yet to absorb.
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IMHO
Pilots are incredible loyal people. Only just a Very Very few people get fired on one months notice. Even if you screw up, it is better to keep you on staff because you have learned from your mistakes. Been there. I think the only people that get fired on one month's notice are guys that can't fly the airplane. Agreed, if you can't fly it, you should not hold the position. Not for throwing peanuts.
Economics or not, as an employee you deserve some respect. You work for an employer and give your utmost and you should get something back (whether a good roster, etc). This is not a sweatshop, yet.
Cathay Pilots are not unreasonable people. A guy with 20 years at the company should be able to get his Sons Graduation off. I don't think that is unreasonable. Yes I know we are all paid too much. Tell me that when we are over the Pacific with a cargo fire. I'm sure you know.
Cathay Pilots going around saying they are the best, are IDIOTS. Yes there are some around. I know i.e. Give me direct, don't you know who I am. Complete tossers.
411A, I got through grade six because I drove the teacher to school, but I found something I was good at both physically and mentally. Just like every other Pilot out there. All Pilots should be Proud of what they do. It is a skill that continuously needs nurturing and can have dire consequences if not nurtured properly.
Cathay makes lots of money on our backs, we are just looking for some kind of life style.
I don't think that is too much to ask. We are not bad people.
Regards,
BG25
Economics or not, as an employee you deserve some respect. You work for an employer and give your utmost and you should get something back (whether a good roster, etc). This is not a sweatshop, yet.
Cathay Pilots are not unreasonable people. A guy with 20 years at the company should be able to get his Sons Graduation off. I don't think that is unreasonable. Yes I know we are all paid too much. Tell me that when we are over the Pacific with a cargo fire. I'm sure you know.
Cathay Pilots going around saying they are the best, are IDIOTS. Yes there are some around. I know i.e. Give me direct, don't you know who I am. Complete tossers.
411A, I got through grade six because I drove the teacher to school, but I found something I was good at both physically and mentally. Just like every other Pilot out there. All Pilots should be Proud of what they do. It is a skill that continuously needs nurturing and can have dire consequences if not nurtured properly.
Cathay makes lots of money on our backs, we are just looking for some kind of life style.
I don't think that is too much to ask. We are not bad people.
Regards,
BG25
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I have been flying for 24 years, 19with a major airline.
I remember how excited I was when I went for the interviews,simulator etc. On the line everyday was enjoyable , I cant say I ever met another crew member I didnt like.
50% of the job is skill/flying , the other 50 are the friendships and socialising that go with the job.
Having seen a steady decline in conditions and renumeration over the years, its the friendships that have kept me going.
The point being the job aint worth doing without the later 50%.
Those of you considering ignoring the ban will have your own reasons for doing so, but please do not be disappointed if the people you will fly with have their own reasons for not accepting you with open arms.
I remember how excited I was when I went for the interviews,simulator etc. On the line everyday was enjoyable , I cant say I ever met another crew member I didnt like.
50% of the job is skill/flying , the other 50 are the friendships and socialising that go with the job.
Having seen a steady decline in conditions and renumeration over the years, its the friendships that have kept me going.
The point being the job aint worth doing without the later 50%.
Those of you considering ignoring the ban will have your own reasons for doing so, but please do not be disappointed if the people you will fly with have their own reasons for not accepting you with open arms.
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Setright:
I hear you. When I was flying a twin piston a long time ago, they were the days. We slept in the airplane all day and flew in the evening. All our flights arrived at basically the same time. We waited for each other to go out on the ****. I was BROKE ($795 per month), but you know what made up for it, it was the guys I flew with. We now have gone our separate ways but I know exactly where everybody is.
We don't email much, because it is not the same. Just having a beer with them in person speaks volumes. Christ they were the days. I have made new friends at CX and it is the latter 50% that keep me going.
I agree, flying is only half the job. The other half is making friendships.
All we are looking for at CX is a contract. Whether it is crap or not, at least it is a contract.
We are all pilots trying to do our best. Some of my friends will never know that.
Regards,
BG25
Pro Pilot, whoever you may be.
I think I am getting old.
I hear you. When I was flying a twin piston a long time ago, they were the days. We slept in the airplane all day and flew in the evening. All our flights arrived at basically the same time. We waited for each other to go out on the ****. I was BROKE ($795 per month), but you know what made up for it, it was the guys I flew with. We now have gone our separate ways but I know exactly where everybody is.
We don't email much, because it is not the same. Just having a beer with them in person speaks volumes. Christ they were the days. I have made new friends at CX and it is the latter 50% that keep me going.
I agree, flying is only half the job. The other half is making friendships.
All we are looking for at CX is a contract. Whether it is crap or not, at least it is a contract.
We are all pilots trying to do our best. Some of my friends will never know that.
Regards,
BG25
Pro Pilot, whoever you may be.
I think I am getting old.
Thread Starter
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This is important
Below is a copy of a the information, which you can find here
The Cathay Pacific Recruitment Ban
Thank you for taking the time to find out more about the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) Recruitment Ban that has been enacted on recruitment into Cathay Pacific, and its subsidiaries VETA and USAB. Details of the ban are shown below. Please remember that joining Cathay while this ban is in place will not only affect your career with Cathay but also your ability to secure employment in other IFALPA affiliated airlines when you leave Cathay.
A New Career in New Surroundings
Joining a company like Cathay is an important step for you and your family. Every member of the HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) has taken this step and we understand many of the factors you may now be weighing up in deciding whether to join Cathay. We understand that it is a difficult decision, moving half way around the world to start a new career and what is bound to be a new sort of life in Hong Kong. As a direct entry Second Officer you will be based in Hong Kong from your date of joining. As a direct entry Freighter First Officer, you will be faced with the same prospect of a move to Hong Kong at some stage very early on in your career. New friends, new schools, new surroundings - change all round. Try as we do, as expatriates, to escape into our own space in Hong Kong, it is not always possible to do so. Hong Kong is a small place and the expatriate community is close knit.
Is a move to Cathay one that is likely to lead to happiness for you and your family? Is this a step you should sensibly take now? Are there alternatives? Only you can really judge. But we hope that you will make these judgments carefully and that your decision will be an informed one.
Intimidation of Replacement Workers
First of all, you should be assured that the HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked; even the best efforts of the company and the HKAOA may not be able to prevent incidents of this nature. Indeed, Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject. This is the first time he has communicated with us since 1999, and is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.
Unfortunately, the very nature of our job means that close cooperation in the form of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is required to perform our job. With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. Would you be happy to operate in this sort of environment? Never mind the tension that might exist outside of the operation. Most trips involve social time together with other crew members, even if it is conversation in the cruise or a meal together on a layover. For many people this aspect of the job is necessary relief from the long duty hours and separation from family that define a flying career with Cathay.
In the past, most pilots joining Cathay have done so after much research and many conversations with friends already in the airline. This has helped people make good decisions for themselves. Most people knew that they were going to fit in to the Cathay Pilot group. Given the requirement to move half way across the globe for a job, this was useful! How easy is it going to be to fit in now?
Putting the ban aside for a moment...
Regardless of the IFALPA ban, you should ask yourself if you want to join a company that has such a dreadful track record of employee relations. Amongst many other issues, you should know that:
There is little doubt that Cathay can progress towards a good future when the current dispute is amicably resolved. However, while the contribution of our members is little recognised and less and less rewarded, we urge you to consider carefully your decision to join Cathay with the IFALPA Recruitment Ban in force.
For more information, please contact us at the addresses and numbers below. Better still, call a friend at Cathay. You can also download a special report on our sacked colleagues entitled The 49ers in Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf).
Please be fully informed before making this important decision.
The HKAOA is doing all it can to resolve this difficult issue as quickly as possible. Please register with us at the email address below and we will advise you when the IFALPA Recruitment Ban is lifted. Once the Ban is lifted, you will be welcomed as a colleague and we can, together, look forward to a brighter future.
HKAOA Contact Information
HKAOA
5/F, Daily House
Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui
HONG KONG
Fax: +852 2736 0903
[email protected]
IFALPA Recruitment Ban
The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).
The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment commencing on or after 9th October 2001. The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s firing 51 Union pilots in July 2001. These pilots were terminated for no reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The intention of the ban is to maximise the pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of replacement pilots delays a successful resolution to the dispute.
The HKAOA will not provide support for replacement pilots in any circumstances whereby it would normally act on behalf of a member pilot. Such support is a major ingredient of a pilot’s airline career and includes assistance in case of accident or incident, discipline and grievance, legal representation in foreign countries, personal insurance, family support, salary negotiation and contract protection.
Should any pilot have questions relating to this ban, please contact the HKAOA.
The Cathay Pacific Recruitment Ban
Thank you for taking the time to find out more about the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) Recruitment Ban that has been enacted on recruitment into Cathay Pacific, and its subsidiaries VETA and USAB. Details of the ban are shown below. Please remember that joining Cathay while this ban is in place will not only affect your career with Cathay but also your ability to secure employment in other IFALPA affiliated airlines when you leave Cathay.
A New Career in New Surroundings
Joining a company like Cathay is an important step for you and your family. Every member of the HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) has taken this step and we understand many of the factors you may now be weighing up in deciding whether to join Cathay. We understand that it is a difficult decision, moving half way around the world to start a new career and what is bound to be a new sort of life in Hong Kong. As a direct entry Second Officer you will be based in Hong Kong from your date of joining. As a direct entry Freighter First Officer, you will be faced with the same prospect of a move to Hong Kong at some stage very early on in your career. New friends, new schools, new surroundings - change all round. Try as we do, as expatriates, to escape into our own space in Hong Kong, it is not always possible to do so. Hong Kong is a small place and the expatriate community is close knit.
Is a move to Cathay one that is likely to lead to happiness for you and your family? Is this a step you should sensibly take now? Are there alternatives? Only you can really judge. But we hope that you will make these judgments carefully and that your decision will be an informed one.
Intimidation of Replacement Workers
First of all, you should be assured that the HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked; even the best efforts of the company and the HKAOA may not be able to prevent incidents of this nature. Indeed, Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject. This is the first time he has communicated with us since 1999, and is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.
Unfortunately, the very nature of our job means that close cooperation in the form of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is required to perform our job. With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. Would you be happy to operate in this sort of environment? Never mind the tension that might exist outside of the operation. Most trips involve social time together with other crew members, even if it is conversation in the cruise or a meal together on a layover. For many people this aspect of the job is necessary relief from the long duty hours and separation from family that define a flying career with Cathay.
In the past, most pilots joining Cathay have done so after much research and many conversations with friends already in the airline. This has helped people make good decisions for themselves. Most people knew that they were going to fit in to the Cathay Pilot group. Given the requirement to move half way across the globe for a job, this was useful! How easy is it going to be to fit in now?
Putting the ban aside for a moment...
Regardless of the IFALPA ban, you should ask yourself if you want to join a company that has such a dreadful track record of employee relations. Amongst many other issues, you should know that:
- Those sacked were given no reasons for their dismissal. No effort was made to establish the good conduct or otherwise of those affected. This despite an agreed Disciplinary and Grievance Process. It is probable that this action would have been illegal in your home country.
- No demographic was safe from the recent terminations; victims ranged from the most junior first officer to senior check captains and even former managers
- There are many outstanding flight safety issues that remain unresolved, due to management’s refusal to talk to the HKAOA.
- Management is attempting to terminate the most basic agreements on housing, medical, education and basings. These are vitally important aspects of our members’ conditions of service, which affect all pilots working for Cathay, whether based in their home country or based in Hong Kong. Fundamental to any decision whether or not to join Cathay, management now believe that these items are no longer contractual and can be varied at their sole discretion.
There is little doubt that Cathay can progress towards a good future when the current dispute is amicably resolved. However, while the contribution of our members is little recognised and less and less rewarded, we urge you to consider carefully your decision to join Cathay with the IFALPA Recruitment Ban in force.
For more information, please contact us at the addresses and numbers below. Better still, call a friend at Cathay. You can also download a special report on our sacked colleagues entitled The 49ers in Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf).
Please be fully informed before making this important decision.
The HKAOA is doing all it can to resolve this difficult issue as quickly as possible. Please register with us at the email address below and we will advise you when the IFALPA Recruitment Ban is lifted. Once the Ban is lifted, you will be welcomed as a colleague and we can, together, look forward to a brighter future.
HKAOA Contact Information
HKAOA
5/F, Daily House
Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui
HONG KONG
Fax: +852 2736 0903
[email protected]
IFALPA Recruitment Ban
The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).
The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment commencing on or after 9th October 2001. The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s firing 51 Union pilots in July 2001. These pilots were terminated for no reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The intention of the ban is to maximise the pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of replacement pilots delays a successful resolution to the dispute.
The HKAOA will not provide support for replacement pilots in any circumstances whereby it would normally act on behalf of a member pilot. Such support is a major ingredient of a pilot’s airline career and includes assistance in case of accident or incident, discipline and grievance, legal representation in foreign countries, personal insurance, family support, salary negotiation and contract protection.
Should any pilot have questions relating to this ban, please contact the HKAOA.
Join Date: May 2002
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Just one post in two weeks on this thread and the last one a repeat.
The CX ban is open for discussion on several threads here on Fragrant Harbour and as this one seems to have run it's course I am going to close it now.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
The CX ban is open for discussion on several threads here on Fragrant Harbour and as this one seems to have run it's course I am going to close it now.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
