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2 ex-HKG flight delayed due no crew?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

2 ex-HKG flight delayed due no crew?

Old 17th Aug 2015, 14:07
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2 ex-HKG flight delayed due no crew?

Who says CC is not working?

Two Cathay Pacific Airways flights were delayed on Sunday after crew members fell ill, with passengers complaining that they were not treated properly, Apple Daily reported on Monday.

The 272 passengers of New York-bound flight CX846, which was scheduled to take off at 6:45 p.m., waited aboard the plane for more than an hour before they were told to disembark at 8:15 p.m.

An on-board announcement said the co-pilot was ill.

While Cathay arranged for overseas passengers to stay overnight in hotels near the airport, Hong Kong passengers were told to wait either at the VIP lounge or go home with their taxi fares paid for by the company.

A passenger surnamed Wong said she thought it was ridiculous that there was no back-up co-pilot, adding that the company did not provide proper assistance to passengers.

A Cathy spokesman apologized for the delay, saying the flight had to be postponed to Monday noon because it took time to find a replacement.

Another Cathay flight, bound to take off for Milan at 1 a.m. Sunday, was also abruptly called off while the 204 passengers were ready to board the plane.

The airline said several crew members were indisposed.

Passengers also complained that they were not treated well, with foreigners given hotel accommodation while locals were only given taxi fares.

The flight did not take off until 9:32 a.m. Sunday.
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 14:19
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Well, well, well.......it wont be long now.....
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 16:06
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The important point here is the flights didn't go because they couldn't find a G day worker to fill the hole .
It's past time that G day workers who undermine the efforts of the rest of us are let off so easily .
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 16:31
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For those of you who doubt, or those who seem to lack the intestinal fortitude to demonstrate the character needed during this time, let this story give you the extra encouragement towards doing your part. The company is desperate to make that one last 'push' towards degrading and devaluing any substance that this career once had. Everyone (EVERYONE) has a bone in this game. From the A scalers right down to the newly hired SO on HKPA, if you ever needed to play your part in a battle of character and courage, now is the time. The Swire mentality towards labour is archaic and debunked. It is only surviving due to the desperate measures of those last few anachronistic Swire management holdouts who are desperately trying to feather their own nests through bonuses before the whole edifice collapses. Do YOU want to be part of not only undermining your own career value, and that of your colleagues, but directly benefiting the likes of AT? No matter the personal sacrifice, this time will pass. Let's make sure we have brought down this venal and self absorbed management relic of the 18th century and replaced it with a career with dignity, proper renumeration and modern, first world work rules. If not now, then when? Hold your own close circle of friends to account. There should be NO one in our ranks who is letting down the common good at this time. We will prevail. This ridiculous excuse of an airline must be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 18:00
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"I can get a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a cow's a$$, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it" -- Big Tom Callahan

Apparently not everyone on the planet feels this way. Despite inputs by the subject matter experts, guess they'll just have to rediscover it for themselves.

Thinking that overlapping/excessive reserve and 'flexible' (a nice word for 'unstable') rosters allows one to mitigate CC and potentially use one's assets more efficiently is our version of getting a good look at the bovine alimentary canal. (n-1) is always less than (n) and this coupled with the loss of the real flexibility of A days (or real A days) results in having LESS resources available for the task at hand. There's no real way to shuffle things to make this not the case. One hole filled in the next hour creates four more tomorrow and sixteen more later in the week. Not to mention the frustration of crew controllers in trying to fix this, and only seeing the harder they work the more unintended consequences happen. Being stuck in 10 mile scope with the added problem of folks not answering their phones when needed prevents any efficient use of crews. We see wild swings in overtime, people timing out, people timing out for training events and either scrambling or going non-current (further exacerbating the problem) and people becoming fatigued and unable to legally fly.

IF this type of system had any chance of working, ATC agencies would simply wait for airplanes to freecall them and not worry about planning tracks and flow into airports. Just let people show up. The US ATC system learned long ago this didn't work very well and started installing software to look several hundred miles out for orderly sequencing of aircraft into airports. Works great. In fact, when this system failed recently the US northeast experienced THEIR version of how WE currently roster--causing massive delays and cancellations. Better to plan for an orderly flow that people can plan around, plan rest around, and actually do.

There's a lot to be said for 'owned' and stable rosters and third generation PBS based systems. Moreover, if people can trade trips and there's a coherent rostering system in place most problems work themselves out by pilots picking up trips and sorting things out amongst themselves. Our throwing the published roster out the window (along WITH RPs) is having predictable effects. Especially when helpfulness in the form of goodwill isn't there.

Efficiency and roster stability go hand in hand; using some reserve assets to backfill bona-fide contingencies. If someone has a printed trip they'll usually fly it. If we get continuous body clock swaps, complete unknown as to what happens next, and what we do does not resemble anything close to what was planned it takes its toll. Not only in the company not being able to roster efficiently but also in one's body not being able to perform a trip. A body isn't a switch and can't be turned on and off on a whim. And we are not allowed to fly when not fit to do so. Full stop. Roster inefficiencies are exacerbated by individuals being forced to decline a trip which changes at the last minute. With predictable outcomes.

Moreover, continuous lack of stable patterns results in long-term fatigue to humans. Just a fact of life. This opens the door to all kinds of very real physical ailments, some of which can bring a person down for a very long time. So you not only lose your assets in the short term, you lose them for long periods in the long term as well. You burn them out and they break. And then when and if they become fixed you have to devote even more collateral non-value added assets to get them re-current again. Kinda like running a car engine at high speed and never changing the oil or brakes. Investments have maintenance costs associated with them. People are no different.

Last edited by Shep69; 17th Aug 2015 at 18:11.
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 21:23
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Basically, everyone goes along with this archaic 'system'. It didn't work that well in the 80's and it certainly doesn't work now but we all shamble around and fill the gaps somehow. If people stick together and work to rule, the whole edifice will surely collapse.
Surely.....???????
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 22:56
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It is now an anorexic corporation.

After decades of managers making cuts, taking their bonuses and 'moving on', it can't maintain a day-to-day operation responding to minor disruptions such as sickness of one crew member, let alone respond to new growth opportunities. Now they have tired, sick and unmotivated flight crew, employed in insufficient numbers on sub-standard packages.

I could see this coming from 1999. Age 65 retirement, SARS and the odd financial crisis kicked the can down the road a little but now, here it is.

Last edited by Captain Dart; 18th Aug 2015 at 02:14.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 00:49
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What would be nice is if they would come to their senses and instead of flat plating the pilots group (thus losing their goodwill) and playing a power game (which doesn't really exist) they'd take a problem solving approach. There are plenty of win-win solutions on the table which cost little in terms of keeping the operation running and expanding it.

At the end of the day, it doesn't MATTER who is right or wrong. If the mission isn't getting done it's not getting done. Fix the problem, not the blame.

It's like a power grid. If there isn't enough generating capacity for the demand at the time (or the generators are restricted in their operation) someone isn't going to get power. Moreover, deliberately keeping a significant fraction of your generation capacity on standby somewheres else (or even at all) is pretty damn stupid. Not even knowing where your generators are or will be tomorrow even worse. 3-man and other penny pinching measures won't increase generating capacity. The generators CAN operate more efficiently and at better demand distribution levels would a sensible RP agreement be achieved. What I might expect next is a series of rolling blackouts such that one sector isn't overly unserviced.

Last edited by Shep69; 18th Aug 2015 at 00:59.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 04:28
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This is a direct result of swires management philosophy . They Bring in short term directors before moving them on elsewhere . The only thing the directors are concerned with are their bonuses not the overall health of the company . Therefore no one is held responsible for long term trends .
Why forego or reduce your annual bonus to make a decision that will benefit the company in years to come and add to someone else's bonus many years down the line .
A perfect example of this was the decision to build CX city in its present location vs the site where terminal 2 currently stands . It was cheaper in the short term but long term not the best decision But hey it would have affected Erringtons bonus so we got what we now have
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 07:01
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Nothing will ever change here, the rot and the pig headed management style are set in. I can't see the airline existing in a few years time, either it'll be taken over, or it'll self implode. You have to leave and join another carrier that's the only salvation.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 07:25
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Threethirty is correct. Don't be like the boiling frog. If you are 40ish or under, leave now. The sooner you establish on the seniority list of a proper carrier, with first world work rules, the sooner you will advance within a rational and stable system. Will it all work out for everyone?...no, but for most it will be the best decision of your lives. Leave before it's too late. CX is doomed as we know it.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 07:40
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I've quoted the Indian Mutiny before but it's even more valid as things progress. How hard is it for our genius Management Team to get?
If you push people far enough and over a long enough period they will rebel because they just don't care any more and you can do nothing else to harm them.
Leave while you can. Me? I'm off soon anyway and can't wait.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 08:04
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If it's not in the weekly wrap up, it didn't happen.

Everything is fine here folks, move along.
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 08:56
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It's easy guys just start going sick....they are even running out of G day workers
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 11:31
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2 were crewed by G day workers (one on requested G days)
Any way to subtly give a hint on who they were.... names, flights, rank etc
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 12:19
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2 ex-HKG flight delayed due no crew?

Now, what would you do if you wanted to sell an airline?
You would want cheap crews
Certainly a cheap low cost housing agreement
Low over heads
Lovely new efficient aircraft
A profitable diverse route structure
A well recognised brand
Low head count
No unnecessary expenditure or investment, because that would be a complete waste of money and effect bonuses!

Sounds familiar ?
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 15:01
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Spot on Out backer.
And that's why we received only $2000HKD in "profit share", after the company raked in their usual billions. Why waste money on the future goodwill of someone else's employees.....
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Old 18th Aug 2015, 17:05
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I am sure that Outbacker is correct. It feels like the end of days at Cathay after years and years of everything being done DOWN to a cost rather than UP to a standard; clearly unsustainable. It goes way beyond prudent Management. It certainly looks as if the enterprise is being set up for a sale.
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Old 19th Aug 2015, 04:33
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Hahaha.
Set up for a sale? You give these halfwits far too much credit.

Who would touch a business with an unrealized fuel hedging loss of $10 billion.
An airline whose annual results are worse than qantas? (Themselves a basket case but not in our class)

You're suggesting the current mess is actually a strategic plan being executed by competent management.
Trust me. Such a conspiracy is far beyond them.
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Old 19th Aug 2015, 04:34
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What crew shortage?

Rumor around the interwebs is that they're considering launching LGW...

2 man crew to Europe anyone?
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