CX Pilot arrested at Heathrow for possession of knives
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Alpine Sudetenwaltz
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shep
I'm not sure what point(s) you're trying to make. Security applies to us all; some countries (NLD, GERMANY, and even HKG) allow crews a certain amount of leeway in what the crew can take on, as we are crews. Sadly the UK does not. In fact they have been pressurizing other EU countries to adopt their own draconian standards, so far resisted. I'm not sure what the big picture is meant to be in your case; certain items are prescribed; cut throat razors, parangs, kitchen scissors and even kitchen knives are probably amongst them, irrespective of whether you bought them on a trip and they are packaged or not. This should apply to everyone, pilots, cabin crew, line engineers, etc. etc. without favour. If a passenger attempted to bring any of this crap onboard in his hand baggage we'd have a fit, and rightly so. Why therefore, with all our inherent human frailties, are we any different ? With the recent hacking to death of a serviceman (a musician;always a hard target) in the street by a pair of certifiable nutters (that sadly dignifies them too much) acting under the guise of religion, the UK authorities are understandably a bit sensitive on the subject of knives, blades etc. In this example if, as it appears is the case, the individual was based, then he would have had ample opportunity to put the items in his check in baggage, and check it through the normal CX counter, perhaps even pointing out before it drops through the hole to be x'rayed/ pillaged/ stolen that he had knives or razors in there.. No harm done, arse and job covered, he goes on his way rejoicing. To try and go through airport security in this day and age in the UK or anywhere else for that matter, recent events notwithstanding, with any form of potentially offensive weapon, however they choose to construe them, is frankly asinine.
Someone else mentioned a dedicated crew drop off; there is one at LHR, and it seems to be used as some sort of training set up for the would be stormtroopers that then go on to man the internal airport security channel. If anything, a singularly more unpleasant experience (if that is possible) than using the landside channel. The nonsense with that arrangement, and it is unique I think to Heathrow, is that you take your hold baggage with you, have that checked, not sealed, and then proceed with the same baggage airside, to then leave it at the the back of the aircraft, usually in the rain. Allowing you, if you were so minded, access to whatever non-allowable cabin items you put in there, before going back on the aircraft. Truly nonsensical.
Finally, with respect to the Hawaii "incident" which you have somehow managed to conflate in to this discussion. Most of us thankfully did not go through our school years having to use a fake ID, nor pass through a metal detector to get in the gates. Long may it continue. This individual was patently in the wrong, and as a former Naval officer should have known better, notwithstanding some alleged trauma nonsense influencing his judgement, and in my opinion he should have been banged up for it. In any event, he has almost certainly breached certain parts of the ANO here. Perhaps we should apply for his extradition and prosecute him here ? By extension, why didn't he take his CX card, change the photograph, (I'm sure that wouldn't be too difficult as apparently there is a wealth of experience in fake school id cards in the US) and sell it to Mr. Al-unsafe whilst he's at it.
I'm not sure what point(s) you're trying to make. Security applies to us all; some countries (NLD, GERMANY, and even HKG) allow crews a certain amount of leeway in what the crew can take on, as we are crews. Sadly the UK does not. In fact they have been pressurizing other EU countries to adopt their own draconian standards, so far resisted. I'm not sure what the big picture is meant to be in your case; certain items are prescribed; cut throat razors, parangs, kitchen scissors and even kitchen knives are probably amongst them, irrespective of whether you bought them on a trip and they are packaged or not. This should apply to everyone, pilots, cabin crew, line engineers, etc. etc. without favour. If a passenger attempted to bring any of this crap onboard in his hand baggage we'd have a fit, and rightly so. Why therefore, with all our inherent human frailties, are we any different ? With the recent hacking to death of a serviceman (a musician;always a hard target) in the street by a pair of certifiable nutters (that sadly dignifies them too much) acting under the guise of religion, the UK authorities are understandably a bit sensitive on the subject of knives, blades etc. In this example if, as it appears is the case, the individual was based, then he would have had ample opportunity to put the items in his check in baggage, and check it through the normal CX counter, perhaps even pointing out before it drops through the hole to be x'rayed/ pillaged/ stolen that he had knives or razors in there.. No harm done, arse and job covered, he goes on his way rejoicing. To try and go through airport security in this day and age in the UK or anywhere else for that matter, recent events notwithstanding, with any form of potentially offensive weapon, however they choose to construe them, is frankly asinine.
Someone else mentioned a dedicated crew drop off; there is one at LHR, and it seems to be used as some sort of training set up for the would be stormtroopers that then go on to man the internal airport security channel. If anything, a singularly more unpleasant experience (if that is possible) than using the landside channel. The nonsense with that arrangement, and it is unique I think to Heathrow, is that you take your hold baggage with you, have that checked, not sealed, and then proceed with the same baggage airside, to then leave it at the the back of the aircraft, usually in the rain. Allowing you, if you were so minded, access to whatever non-allowable cabin items you put in there, before going back on the aircraft. Truly nonsensical.
Finally, with respect to the Hawaii "incident" which you have somehow managed to conflate in to this discussion. Most of us thankfully did not go through our school years having to use a fake ID, nor pass through a metal detector to get in the gates. Long may it continue. This individual was patently in the wrong, and as a former Naval officer should have known better, notwithstanding some alleged trauma nonsense influencing his judgement, and in my opinion he should have been banged up for it. In any event, he has almost certainly breached certain parts of the ANO here. Perhaps we should apply for his extradition and prosecute him here ? By extension, why didn't he take his CX card, change the photograph, (I'm sure that wouldn't be too difficult as apparently there is a wealth of experience in fake school id cards in the US) and sell it to Mr. Al-unsafe whilst he's at it.
Last edited by RHEINHARD; 22nd Apr 2015 at 04:58. Reason: Redacted.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rhein, you'll have to speak for yourself when you say have a fit. I can personally say I'd be no more distraught by someone having knives or other sharp objects on their carry on than I would be by them having access to a wine bottle or any one of the hundreds of other things that could potentially be used as a weapon onboard any aircraft. It isn't the object that counts and this phosophy I see as a trap. In fact I kinda feel sorry for folks who demonize or are afraid of inatimate objects--for whatever reason. Weee we interested in real security I'd think we'd look more into behaviour and background than sharp things and stuff. Scanners CAN reach their forte in looking for explosives and perhaps that is what we should be spending limited resources looking for rather than keying in on minutia.
Having said all that I do pack very very carefully and try to stay keenly aware of anything in a carry on. Other than a potential plant by a bad guy, this has little to do with safety or security and everything to do with not running afoul of some rule somewhere--and that's the point.
I personally see the 'head injury' thing by the Hawaii guy more as a lawyer ploy to get the guy off with a lighter sentence. Seems to have worked.
BTW, We didn't have IDa in school when I was a kid either; the fake IDs were for liquor, tobacco, and to get in places it was deemed weren't appropriate for us to go. They seemed to work well.
Having said all that I do pack very very carefully and try to stay keenly aware of anything in a carry on. Other than a potential plant by a bad guy, this has little to do with safety or security and everything to do with not running afoul of some rule somewhere--and that's the point.
I personally see the 'head injury' thing by the Hawaii guy more as a lawyer ploy to get the guy off with a lighter sentence. Seems to have worked.
BTW, We didn't have IDa in school when I was a kid either; the fake IDs were for liquor, tobacco, and to get in places it was deemed weren't appropriate for us to go. They seemed to work well.
silber
Like you I have done the same thing with a set of old ivory-handled Sheffield steak knives I picked up at the Portobello Markets, but that was at least 5 or so years ago. I didn't have a problem but I think times have changed.
I don't think security systems have made us safer by any measure, just more stressed. Great reason to stay off the pax fleet.
Like you I have done the same thing with a set of old ivory-handled Sheffield steak knives I picked up at the Portobello Markets, but that was at least 5 or so years ago. I didn't have a problem but I think times have changed.
I don't think security systems have made us safer by any measure, just more stressed. Great reason to stay off the pax fleet.
If we filter out the dimwitted "Nazi/Gestapo/SS/Sturmtrooper/crowbar/fire axe" posts, we're left with a handful by thinking people who agree that:
You can't take sharp objects through security. Anywhere.
Airline staff should know this better than anyone
The police don't get involved for a Swiss Army knife
We don't know the full story.
You can't take sharp objects through security. Anywhere.
Airline staff should know this better than anyone
The police don't get involved for a Swiss Army knife
We don't know the full story.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Here ---> X
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are also those who will stand by a colleague and long time employee of this airline with the not so very far fetched assumption that it was a honest, if a bit daft, mistake. We all make those.
I'll gladly put my weight on his side of the balance just on the knowledge that being a long time pilot of this outfit, he could be the guy I'd least want to fly with and I'd still firmly believe he is not the psychopathic criminal the newspapers and trigger-happy security bozos so desperately want him to be.
I'd also like the community of my peers to stand up behind me the day I unwillingly screw up. Alas, we are the best at crying fool we our employers pushes the cucumber in, but we quick to push it up each other's arses at the first stumble.
Not to mention that anyone that has had the pleasure of dealing with LHR security will know them for the paranoid, bullheaded, pathetically inept, blinkers-wearing glorified shopping-centre security guards they are.
Assumption made. Side taken. I stand by it.
I hope life goes back to normal for him soon.
I'll gladly put my weight on his side of the balance just on the knowledge that being a long time pilot of this outfit, he could be the guy I'd least want to fly with and I'd still firmly believe he is not the psychopathic criminal the newspapers and trigger-happy security bozos so desperately want him to be.
I'd also like the community of my peers to stand up behind me the day I unwillingly screw up. Alas, we are the best at crying fool we our employers pushes the cucumber in, but we quick to push it up each other's arses at the first stumble.
Not to mention that anyone that has had the pleasure of dealing with LHR security will know them for the paranoid, bullheaded, pathetically inept, blinkers-wearing glorified shopping-centre security guards they are.
Assumption made. Side taken. I stand by it.
I hope life goes back to normal for him soon.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
luganao
I find that people who see the world in black and white are usually missing gray matter.
STP
In answer to your question about the ex CX pilot who tried to cheat the security queue in Honolulu -
No, I don't think the TSA or the FBI over-reacted; his conduct clearly had to be investigated.
Whether prosecution was necessary in the particular circumstances could be reasonably argued either way.
Whilst what he did was both very stupid and a criminal offence, I have no reason to believe that he was a security risk.
I wouldn't attach any weight to his lawyer's (silly) comment during mitigation. If there had been any foundation for it, medical evidence would have been adduced.
I think the penalty (3 years probation) was entirely appropriate in all the circumstances.
According to various news reports, the prosecutor did not seek a prison sentence. Given the particular circumstances (of the offence and the offender) that does not surprise me.
Silberfuchs
Where does the word "concealed" come into it? 
On the information currently available, I have no reason to be believe that the item(s) were concealed.
The fact that an item is not on public display does not necessarily mean it is concealed.
darkroomsource described the relevant legislation as "concealed weapons laws". That is not correct.
Yonosoy Marinero
The chances of that happening on PPRuNe are not good - although it should always be borne in mind that not all posters are your peers, nor even professional pilots.
You are in a far better position than me to assess what would be likely to happen where it matters.
Revman2
I'm content to be included amongst those you regard as dimwitted.
I'll bear it with as much fortitude as I can muster.
I really laugh at the nonsense you guys write …….
STP
In answer to your question about the ex CX pilot who tried to cheat the security queue in Honolulu -
No, I don't think the TSA or the FBI over-reacted; his conduct clearly had to be investigated.
Whether prosecution was necessary in the particular circumstances could be reasonably argued either way.
Whilst what he did was both very stupid and a criminal offence, I have no reason to believe that he was a security risk.
I wouldn't attach any weight to his lawyer's (silly) comment during mitigation. If there had been any foundation for it, medical evidence would have been adduced.
I think the penalty (3 years probation) was entirely appropriate in all the circumstances.
According to various news reports, the prosecutor did not seek a prison sentence. Given the particular circumstances (of the offence and the offender) that does not surprise me.
Silberfuchs
The word "concealed" may have a lot to do with it?
On the information currently available, I have no reason to be believe that the item(s) were concealed.
The fact that an item is not on public display does not necessarily mean it is concealed.
darkroomsource described the relevant legislation as "concealed weapons laws". That is not correct.
Yonosoy Marinero
I'd also like the community of my peers to stand up behind me the day I unwillingly screw up.
You are in a far better position than me to assess what would be likely to happen where it matters.
Revman2
I'm content to be included amongst those you regard as dimwitted.
I'll bear it with as much fortitude as I can muster.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPrune is not some kangaroo court to decide on the virtues of others, and I am also content to be included amongst the dimwitted here. I should know what not to bring through security, and I confess I have made mistakes.
@ Flying Lawyer
It surprises me that a person of your obvious intelligence and demonstrated eloquence would willing group him/herself with users of xenophobic cliches and puerile historical stereotypes.
One never learns, though...
It surprises me that a person of your obvious intelligence and demonstrated eloquence would willing group him/herself with users of xenophobic cliches and puerile historical stereotypes.
One never learns, though...
Join Date: May 2003
Location: hong kong
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HK Laws
The law in respect of offensive weapons in HK is similar to English law.
In theory had the pilot been detected carrying these items into HK he could have been in the same predicament with the HK police as he appears to be with the Met.
Hopefully the English prosecution system will exercise discretion when he answers his bail and not prosecute.
I wish him luck
In theory had the pilot been detected carrying these items into HK he could have been in the same predicament with the HK police as he appears to be with the Met.
Hopefully the English prosecution system will exercise discretion when he answers his bail and not prosecute.
I wish him luck
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well hidden amongst RevMan2's other comments is the best comment on this thread (which is out of sorts with his other comments):
We don't know the full story.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trossie
The comment you referred to is not hidden, just not seen by some of the blinkered posters on here. We do not know the full facts, yet there has been, at times, hysterical comments about the security staff, when nobody knows whether the comments are as yet warranted!
Security is a pain and we have to put up with it, if people do not want the hassle take up another profession.
Shep69
I find your comments laughable and our whole security system post 9/11 is down to the good old US of A. Remind me again which flights were hijacked, yes, that's correct DOMESTIC flights, which in those days had pretty poor security prior to boarding. But with knee jerk reaction the WHOLE WORLD had to comply with security regulations imposed by the good old US of A!
The comment you referred to is not hidden, just not seen by some of the blinkered posters on here. We do not know the full facts, yet there has been, at times, hysterical comments about the security staff, when nobody knows whether the comments are as yet warranted!
Security is a pain and we have to put up with it, if people do not want the hassle take up another profession.
Shep69
I find your comments laughable and our whole security system post 9/11 is down to the good old US of A. Remind me again which flights were hijacked, yes, that's correct DOMESTIC flights, which in those days had pretty poor security prior to boarding. But with knee jerk reaction the WHOLE WORLD had to comply with security regulations imposed by the good old US of A!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nirvana
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an aside, did you know that a Baked Bean is a liquid? - It's considered as such at LHR. Although baked beans a traditionally coated on tomato sauce according to Dumb & Dumber at LHR staff search, the bean itself is a liquid.
Now that i've been enlightened, it's opened up a whole new world!
I'll leave that one with you
CB
Now that i've been enlightened, it's opened up a whole new world!
I'll leave that one with you
CB
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iceman50
Laughable?
Is Shep69 to blame for America's kneejerk reaction to 9/11?
He's been arguing since the beginning of the thread that the regulations do a lot to inconvenience the innocent in unnecessary ways and not much to stop the determined bad guys.
Do you disagree?
Shep69
I find your comments laughable and our whole security system post 9/11 is down to the good old US of A. Remind me again which flights were hijacked, yes, that's correct DOMESTIC flights, which in those days had pretty poor security prior to boarding. But with knee jerk reaction the WHOLE WORLD had to comply with security regulations imposed by the good old US of A!
I find your comments laughable and our whole security system post 9/11 is down to the good old US of A. Remind me again which flights were hijacked, yes, that's correct DOMESTIC flights, which in those days had pretty poor security prior to boarding. But with knee jerk reaction the WHOLE WORLD had to comply with security regulations imposed by the good old US of A!
Is Shep69 to blame for America's kneejerk reaction to 9/11?
He's been arguing since the beginning of the thread that the regulations do a lot to inconvenience the innocent in unnecessary ways and not much to stop the determined bad guys.
Do you disagree?
Last edited by Bronx; 23rd Apr 2015 at 12:07.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Crew bunk
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm, those security chaps still haven't worked out that a pilot doesn't need a knife to crash an aircraft.
If any pilot is dense enough to think it's okay to bring a knife through security because he's a pilot, then he deserves whatever happens to him as a result. Hopefully this involves getting fired. We don't need any more stupidity in the cockpit than we already have.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But with knee jerk reaction the WHOLE WORLD had to comply with security regulations imposed by the good old US of A!
But the problem here is the way crews are treated so very differently in different parts of the world. LHR obviously doesn't give any leeway so it is not surprising that on the odd occasion there will be someone 'caught out' doing what he/she might expect as being normal elsewhere. The problem is: Is common sense used when dealing with it, or is the 'miscreant' instantly treated as a criminal?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: U.K.
Age: 75
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Finger food?
Pogie Quote :-"The concern is that the pilot passes the knife off to another person in the terminal who then gets on another aircraft......We don't need any more stupidity in the cockpit than we already have".
And what are we to do about 300+ passengers being given knives and forks - real ones at the front end? Not to mention those bottles of duty free that are bought after the security check.
Finger food for everyone?
No, we certainly don't need any more stupidity in the cockpit.
And what are we to do about 300+ passengers being given knives and forks - real ones at the front end? Not to mention those bottles of duty free that are bought after the security check.
Finger food for everyone?
No, we certainly don't need any more stupidity in the cockpit.