Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.


Old 27th Sep 2014, 00:37
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Here
Posts: 462
If they had offered 4% in January, everyone would have been happy, showing goodwill, saving money, etc...
Or if they just imposed it like they did for every other employeee.
crwkunt roll is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 04:01
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 163

And why do you think the manager on charge (DFO) decided for no pay raise for the last couple of years?

No, it's not to save money for the company in a difficult time, or for the shareholders. It's just for his own bonus!
Now, how much money in lost opportunities (cancelled flights) did this cost?
fly123456 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 11:31
  #23 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,088
I don't understand how Cathay expects people to live happily in Hong Kong with no housing. Ok, I know all the I cadets are doing it, but they aren't " normal" yet. ( wife, kids, lack of big jet syndrome). I don't get it.
SOPS is online now  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 12:03
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kowloon
Posts: 289

Welcome to Hongkey town, where you and your future kids will live in this pollution jungle.

Last edited by Soul planet; 27th Sep 2014 at 12:19.
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Old 28th Sep 2014, 00:24
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: dowund
Posts: 91
HKG is dying, seriously thinking off to sandpit then
cpahka is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 00:49
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bouvet Island
Posts: 110
The same thing will happen with housing that is happening with pay.

There will be just enough added again to the SO HKPA to get 550 of them to vote in a decrease for the rest of the gang. That's the way it's working now, that's the way it's going to work for housing.

Unless you figure out a way to inform the 550 most junior members of your workforce who have never played this game, and quickly, that they're in the big leagues now, this workforce will continue to enjoy degrading conditions of service for years to come. No thanks to the current "association," we'll see if the next ones have the wherewithall to stand firm. It's trial by fire, boys.

It's like walking into a shop in Bali, and looking at a t-shirt, which the gal announces is for sale for 400 USD. Do you take the first offer? You NEVER take the first offer, folks. Never. Especially in light of current conditions!
plainpilot11 is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 02:31
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SA
Posts: 29
I wouldn't be so sure, there is a lot more solidarity in their ranks than the others
bangout is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 04:45
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 43
Posts: 977
The main reason HKPA should not be included in pay offers, just like housing. Both should be negotiated as separate issues. Only those eligible for the benefit should be allowed to vote on said benefit. Lumping in HKPA with pay is setting a precedent and housing will follow.

Any pay deal with either HKPA or housing should be instantly thrown out.

The time will come when an increase to HKPA and a decrease in housing are voted for in the same motion by all members.
SloppyJoe is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 05:11
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
I think you give the SO body too much credit. They lined up in droves begging for a shiny jet job when C-Scale Mk I didn't have housing at all.

What do you think will happen in the very near future when those on C-Scale are in the majority and they hold the balance of power when it comes to voting and numbers?
ChinaBeached is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 05:18
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Neverland Ranch
Posts: 22
The SO's are the only one playing this game properly.

Out of my SO friends Kiwi'sOz/Brits/Locals/Canadians I think we are around 90% No for this pay offer. We see what the company are trying to do but we have a lot less to lose than full housing guys with time in so we can afford to stand our ground and support you even though these days you need us a lot more than we need you (this is not meant to be divisive, just statement of fact). We don't work G days and we call in sick when we are tired or otherwise [email protected] off. We discuss things on Facebook where people feel they can contribute and educate each other and have an opinion rather than going on the AOA boards and getting shot down by a 20 year Captain who has the political nous of a baked potato, purely on the basis we have only been here 5 minutes. We understand a lot more than you guys realise. You should be looking at your B Scale friends and asking them what they see going forwards if they vote Yes because they don't want to rock the boat.

ChinaBeached: If this contract does stay as a sh1t sandwich most of us take our wide body hours to a better airline whilst still in our mid/late 20's. Most of us lined up for a job when the world was up shit street and it offered a guaranteed salary and career progression. If the contract improves great, if not we are here as a stepping stone as per the plan. Half my friends are JFO's on a 777/330 in their mid 20's. Yeh, we're all completely stupid!
AndontcallmeShirley is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 05:45
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: West Side
Posts: 4
It's in our best interest to keep YOUR housing?

I would have thought it was in EVERYONE's best interest to keep expat housing 4 years ago? But thanks for trying I guess

Guess what, B scale housing is going to be cut to pieces at some stage in the not to distant future, whether this current proposal gets voted in or out.

I would start living on a budget and pouring money into the war chest so when the cut comes, it's not too deep. If you need help with tips living on a budget, just chat with your SO next time you are at work.
Tres cool is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 05:47
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: West Side
Posts: 4
And yes when C scale has the voting power china beached, we will likely fold and vote in OUR best interest and eat the old so to speak, after years of being given less. But maybe we could all actually work together before then.
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Old 28th Sep 2014, 05:56
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
Shirley - yes you are.

You accepted a job that crapped on the contracts, terms and conditions of the rest of the pilot body you all so proudly "Facebook" amongst each other.

Shiny Jet Syndrome at it's peak. Golly gee whiz.... My mates are JFOs on pretty jets. When was the last time you hand flew a an NDB approach at night, breaking off in the circling area to land after being offset 90 deg? My point? These are skills you decided you don't want or need and instead took a short cut and impatiently and greedily undercut the market to take a job that those of us with the experience and credentials turned down.

Those 20 year Capts you have the audacity to mock are the ones who have more experience about HK and CX than you will ever be able to "tweet" about. Your arrogance reeks only slightly more than your petulant nature. (Look it up).

So CX is a stepping stone? So where are you going to take your P2X hours to? ICAO does't recognise them. But of course you all knew that and understood the ramification of this before signing...... They're only valid within the CX through a CAD dispensation. So your Facebook buddies are JFO's reverse high 5-ing at Shek O beach while playing volley ball..... So when they have > 4000 hrs TT they "MAY" be competitive for an interview at EK, EY or QR. Friends of mine work at all 3 now and without those type of hours you're simply not competitive with respect to other candidates.

If not for you and your Facebook buddies such threats on the terms & conditions, as per this thread, of the general pilot body would not exist.

Quickly post this to Facebook so your buddies can best decide on the direction CX should take and how you all should vote. Hurry!!!!! (Too many characters to tweet - apologies.)

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 28th Sep 2014 at 06:19.
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Old 28th Sep 2014, 06:17
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
Tres: I wish you were right.

Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour.
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Old 28th Sep 2014, 07:53
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 53
Posts: 2,583

You and I I'm pretty sure are roughly of the same vintage at CX but if memory serves me correctly, for our first two years in Hong Kong we received 50% of the zonal housing allowance then 100% after that irrespective of our rank. At the time I joined that equated to HK$18000 per month for the first two years. The housing allowance also wasn't based on official HK government housing figures but on average housing allowances paid out by CX to expat employees. I think it was reviewed every six months rather than monthly as it is done now also.
404 Titan is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 08:13
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 1
Tres Cool,

It's posts like yours that help convince the FO/CN sitting on the fence for the pay deal to vote YES! I was thinking of voting NO, but you have helped me see that people such as yourself most certainly would throw me under the bus if given the chance.

I think it's very unfair that I wasn't given a big chunk of money when I left Adelaide like you guys were, but I accept that was the contract I signed so I won't be fighting to have part of your salary deducted and put into my account to make up for it.

One day you will be the majority, but that will be years away still. Maybe you should stop crying like a baby and appreciate that you have absolutely won the lottery by getting straight onto a widebody, without paying for your training and not having to do the grind in GA/regionals/military.
Access denied is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 09:03
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Neverland Ranch
Posts: 22

I wasnt brand new when I joined and I have my share of war stories in everything upto single pilot twin turbine ops. Ive done a lot of other jobs within the industry too not just flying. I am sure I could show you a thing or two about a thing or two if you'd pull your head out if your ass long enough to listen, as too could a lot of current SOs. And IF I was brand new so ******* what? Cadets have operated 737's etc straight out of flying school for as long as ive been around in good airlines. You are calling them stupid because they want to sit in a 777? Best take that 210 job in the NT and turn down the 777 career gig because thats going to be best in the long run? Pull your head out!! You're pissed off because they have it easier. Dont hate the player hate the game because you would have done the exact samw thing in their shoes and if you wouldnt you either a) came from money or b) are lying. Best be sure to slate all of our ex RAF guys too while you're at it.... They were obviously distracted by tweeting about how to log their P2X to see how shit the package was. And they are worth so much more!!

So you turned C scale down, good for you. Pehaps next time I turn down a job offer when im unemployed you can tell my wife and children that I was right to do it because I was really just being impatient, greedy and undercutting the market by accepting it. Maybe if I waited long enough B-Scale would return. I am sure my Mrs and kids would understand that when I was signing on every month. When the world hits the skids, packages drop. Not rocket science its called market forces and no amount of integrity will change that. Read an economics textbook. You don't have a single ******* clue about peoples situations and reasoning and your arrogance jumps off the page.

And yes Lets blindly listen to the Captains who have watched market forces and weak leadership get us from A scale to C Scale tell us how to fight management. Flightdeck= Yes. Generally, TONS of respect for their opinions. Industrial relations= Ill take you on your merits. Thats not arrogance its common sense.

To the rest of the CX pilots, I don't think I am only speaking for myself when I say in general new guys have a lot of respect for your experience and abilities and we are keen to listen. I certainly do, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised when the shit hits the fan over housing because we realise it affects us too so we will stick with you regardless.

You think you are a shining light of moral intengrity but in all likelihood you are a self righteous cock who thinks he has the right to question other peoples decisions and reasoning. Walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me im a child. Your arrogance is astounding.
AndontcallmeShirley is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 09:11
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Treasure Island
Posts: 41

thanks for that. Glad someone put him in his place...
Long Dong Silver is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 10:04
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 397
Tres and Shirley
Are you ' c scale' ? If you are , then what are you doing commentating on the thread ' housing' , you did not sign for it when you joined.period.
What are you doing here commentating on it
Do you see me going after A scale fixed benefit pension ?
Is it your sense of entitlement thats causing you to comment on something that you did not sign up for or what?? Please enlighten me
goathead is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 10:10
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
Justify your decision to accept a contract FAR below the greater pilot body as you wish. Yet you blame those who ho went before you for C-Scale?? And I'm arrogant? You made your decision & sold out. Full stop.

Market forces??!! YOU are the force behind this micro economic culture of CX! YOU & your Facebook buddies were presented with the sh!t sandwich, begged to eat it & say thank you for it daily. You even justify the flavour via forums like these. Had none of you have taken it then there would be no DEMAND for what they are SUPPLYING. Supply & demand. Heard of it? How am I going with the economics?

I'll agree & apologise for the misrepresentation that all iCadets have zero experience. However the majority do not. RAF guys? Yep, met a few of them. Not one however had actively been flying or had begun flight training back in the UK. That's not to say others had or were. They were made redundant prior to flight training (the several whom I've met).

How are you going to justify your decision to your wife & kids you ask? Dunno fella. I'd start with an apology though. When your wife & kids are stuck in a 500-600 sq ft apartment in the NT's living on a single C-Scale income, housing a pittance of other expat contracts & industries, housing NOT factored to the housing market hence an ever depreciating figure in real terms, considering kids' education costs also...... Retirement on that income & trying to raise a family???

Yep: start with an apology.

Dong: Yeah, I've been put in my place all right: an airline job that I EARNED without under cutting my colleagues while paying me what I deserve. Best you get back to the reverse high 5's with Shirley. You made your bed, I made mine. Biggest difference is that I didn't crap on the industry or colleagues to get here.
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