Vote on "Offer"
FFS Froggy, now is the time to grow a pair and go toe to toe with these guys. They've already blinked once by sending the GMA with this 'Offer', they're short of crew, everyone is in O/time, the roster is a shambles, freight contracts are being pulled, and they've got LOTS more jets incoming. Now is the hour! We're never going to have more leverage!
If we take what is effectively a pay cut for the next three years, I guarantee they'll push even harder on RP's. Oh, but we'll make it up on housing... and before you know it you've been screwed three times in a row!
Lets be realistic, are they going to give us 10%, hell no, will it get ugly, maybe , are we ( and I mean EVERYBODY ) worth at least the same pay rise as the guy who cleans the ****ter got without even asking! Hell yes!!!
Buggs Out
If we take what is effectively a pay cut for the next three years, I guarantee they'll push even harder on RP's. Oh, but we'll make it up on housing... and before you know it you've been screwed three times in a row!
Lets be realistic, are they going to give us 10%, hell no, will it get ugly, maybe , are we ( and I mean EVERYBODY ) worth at least the same pay rise as the guy who cleans the ****ter got without even asking! Hell yes!!!
Buggs Out
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Did they offer to give us dosimeters for radiation?
Are the 'other improvements' good for the company , or us?
Will we get a divorce override due to the high rate at CX due to bad rostering and living in Hong Kong?
Why don't they offer real insurance?
How can the company unilaterally say you have to switch yo Cos 08 to take a base? One guy has a set of balls I wish we collectively had.
Are they giving us displacement pay like every other airline?
How is that full credit for online modules coming along.
Are the 'other improvements' good for the company , or us?
Will we get a divorce override due to the high rate at CX due to bad rostering and living in Hong Kong?
Why don't they offer real insurance?
How can the company unilaterally say you have to switch yo Cos 08 to take a base? One guy has a set of balls I wish we collectively had.
Are they giving us displacement pay like every other airline?
How is that full credit for online modules coming along.
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It isn't that much money anyway, even if you are HKG based. I'm happy to pass and vote no and send the company a strong message. Worst that can happen is they don't offer anything for a while and we launch CC. They will come back to us after that.
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Why do we have to negotiate RPs and housing? The current arrangement is fine. I vote No. I further vote to let the company wait to negotiate these things until our contract is complied with, including adequate pay reviews.
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Can we get screened for skin cancer at our medicals? Maybe the cad can make this mandatory? Remember, we are one of the few airlines that pilots have a chance to pay for their own medical and not get reimbursed.
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@Buggaluggs
Agreed. BUT... what precludes voting 'yes,' securing the raise, and moving forward with CC within 6 months? Better one bird in the hand, no?
Swire create a Prisoner's Dilemma... and everyone falls for it. This is Game Theory 101 stuff. Very straight forward.
Lets be realistic, are they going to give us 10%, hell no, will it get ugly, maybe , are we ( and I mean EVERYBODY ) worth at least the same pay rise as the guy who cleans the ****ter got without even asking! Hell yes!!!l yes!!!
Swire create a Prisoner's Dilemma... and everyone falls for it. This is Game Theory 101 stuff. Very straight forward.
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Trust me mate...contract compliance does not work!
All of the G day worker, commuters etc will make sure it does not work.
Voting yes...taking the money... Fighting for more with RP.
All of the G day worker, commuters etc will make sure it does not work.
Voting yes...taking the money... Fighting for more with RP.
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Frogman: firstly, anyone who starts a thread with the words 'trust me'..... Secondly, if CC doesn't work, then why does the company get so excited and start threatening us whenever we mention the subject? The Freighter network is in utter chaos, most of us are in multiple months of overtime and my phone rings every G day. CC will be enough to push things right over the edge.....trust me 
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Mole, agree with you entirely!
Who in their right mind would agree to a three year deal in the current financial uncertainty and 'Compounded 10%'; try looking at the projected compound inflation expected over the next 3 years before giving away your future...
...and while we're at it what about the increments? Many of you who will be unfortunate enough to stay until 65 will top out of the current scales long before you retire. have you thought about that?
Get the pay sorted THEN address the other major issues.
Heaven help us... 9 months of negotiations to get less than everyone else got give me strength!
Compliance will work and, yes, it did work before. Unfortunately we were the first to blink and as a result 49 guys lost their jobs and now, as a result, they p**s all over us
Grow a pair and fight for what you want and deserve!
Who in their right mind would agree to a three year deal in the current financial uncertainty and 'Compounded 10%'; try looking at the projected compound inflation expected over the next 3 years before giving away your future...
...and while we're at it what about the increments? Many of you who will be unfortunate enough to stay until 65 will top out of the current scales long before you retire. have you thought about that?
Get the pay sorted THEN address the other major issues.
Heaven help us... 9 months of negotiations to get less than everyone else got
give me strength!Compliance will work and, yes, it did work before. Unfortunately we were the first to blink and as a result 49 guys lost their jobs and now, as a result, they p**s all over us
Grow a pair and fight for what you want and deserve!
Even more than CC, the Recruitment Ban during the last 'unpleasantness' really hit a nerve; they went on and on about it, even at senior management level. The DFO squealed like a stuck pig.
I am not commenting on the morality or effectiveness of such bans, just that it really got their attention.
I am not commenting on the morality or effectiveness of such bans, just that it really got their attention.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 12th Sep 2014 at 02:30.
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I can't believe what I'm hearing.
Take the money ?!!??! WTFO
The offer is designed to divide us into fragments and factions--and then exploit these factions against each other. No more, no less. Some get a LITTLE bit more, some have a pay cut and don't recover it for more than 3 years.
It ALSO locks us in to NO pay rise for 3 years "you want ANOTHER raise ? I just GAVE you one."
And a raise that isn't a raise at all--it doesn't even keep up with inflation. It's a net loss disguised as a "raise." We work more for less--how can one frame THAT into any kind of good deal ?
"Well, they could offer zero" Maybe.....but that'll be a hard one to sell to shareholders when planes wind up parked and the company loses money hand over fist because they REQUIRE goodwill from pilots to keep the place running--and REQUIRE them to work beyond their contract in order solely to break even. If we have to pitch in to keep the place running we should be paid as such; or at least not LOSE money as the years advance--which is exactly what has been happening due to inflation. Companies raise prices to deal with inflation. Our price of fuel has gone up but why not the price of skilled labour ?
How many have seen the price of food go down ? Or housing ? Or transportation ? Or education ? Or insurance ? Or taxes ? Or for commuters their commutes and hotels ? Are the suppliers of these goods and services simply sucking it up and operating at a loss or passing it on to their customers. Why are WE supposed to suck it up ?
Does Boeing lose money on airplanes because they cost more to make in 2014 than 2006 ?
I'm starting to feel like that sales guy on TV who says "I lose money on every deal--how do I do it ? VOLUME !!!" Only this time it's real.
If this damn thing is rammed down my throat I'll answer the phone and work G days; why not ? If we do so we've just PROVEN we can't negotiate or stay together--we've proven we will capitulate at the first sign of difficulty (even preemptively--we haven't even gone IN to CC yet -- yet we're giving up before a shot is fired) and the follow on offers will keep this in mind. White flag now, white flag later on every issue. We'll cave on rostering to protect housing--or maybe the North Americans will get a sweet rostering deal to offset the shiite pay deal and remember how the HKG crew sold them out on the pay end--twice-- for a meager pittance. Or maybe it'll be C scalers against A scalers. Or B scalers against C scalers. Or maybe FO's against SFOs. Or JFOs against SOs. Or CNs against the world. Why would based crew now care and function in solidarity with HKG to keep housing and education because HKG crew sold them out on pay ?
See how it works ?
It's a bad deal and one accepts it at one's own peril.
Take the money ?!!??! WTFO
The offer is designed to divide us into fragments and factions--and then exploit these factions against each other. No more, no less. Some get a LITTLE bit more, some have a pay cut and don't recover it for more than 3 years.
It ALSO locks us in to NO pay rise for 3 years "you want ANOTHER raise ? I just GAVE you one."
And a raise that isn't a raise at all--it doesn't even keep up with inflation. It's a net loss disguised as a "raise." We work more for less--how can one frame THAT into any kind of good deal ?
"Well, they could offer zero" Maybe.....but that'll be a hard one to sell to shareholders when planes wind up parked and the company loses money hand over fist because they REQUIRE goodwill from pilots to keep the place running--and REQUIRE them to work beyond their contract in order solely to break even. If we have to pitch in to keep the place running we should be paid as such; or at least not LOSE money as the years advance--which is exactly what has been happening due to inflation. Companies raise prices to deal with inflation. Our price of fuel has gone up but why not the price of skilled labour ?
How many have seen the price of food go down ? Or housing ? Or transportation ? Or education ? Or insurance ? Or taxes ? Or for commuters their commutes and hotels ? Are the suppliers of these goods and services simply sucking it up and operating at a loss or passing it on to their customers. Why are WE supposed to suck it up ?
Does Boeing lose money on airplanes because they cost more to make in 2014 than 2006 ?
I'm starting to feel like that sales guy on TV who says "I lose money on every deal--how do I do it ? VOLUME !!!" Only this time it's real.
If this damn thing is rammed down my throat I'll answer the phone and work G days; why not ? If we do so we've just PROVEN we can't negotiate or stay together--we've proven we will capitulate at the first sign of difficulty (even preemptively--we haven't even gone IN to CC yet -- yet we're giving up before a shot is fired) and the follow on offers will keep this in mind. White flag now, white flag later on every issue. We'll cave on rostering to protect housing--or maybe the North Americans will get a sweet rostering deal to offset the shiite pay deal and remember how the HKG crew sold them out on the pay end--twice-- for a meager pittance. Or maybe it'll be C scalers against A scalers. Or B scalers against C scalers. Or maybe FO's against SFOs. Or JFOs against SOs. Or CNs against the world. Why would based crew now care and function in solidarity with HKG to keep housing and education because HKG crew sold them out on pay ?
See how it works ?
It's a bad deal and one accepts it at one's own peril.
Last edited by Shep69; 12th Sep 2014 at 01:51.
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Shep has got this 100% spot on , if we fall for this we are paving the way to disaster....vote accordingly.
Do not let your brothers and sisters down
Do not think for an instance they will not remember this when the tables turn
DO NOT BLINK.
Do not let your brothers and sisters down
Do not think for an instance they will not remember this when the tables turn
DO NOT BLINK.
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Apr vs Jan
Am I missing something? The latest letter from the company has the effective date of April 1st, 2014. Whereas the AOA stated the pay would be backdated to January 1st, 2014. Time to check the small print, or it this just another typo that will be corrected, "trust us"?
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If we accept this deal, we show ourselves to be as disjointed, fragmented and spineless as management views us.
Are aircraft and flights still being as affected crewing wise as what we are led to believe through CC and abandoning of 'goodwill'?
Is the company actually hurting or concerned about this, because the recent offer seems to suggest not... Are we running out of tools to use?
Are aircraft and flights still being as affected crewing wise as what we are led to believe through CC and abandoning of 'goodwill'?
Is the company actually hurting or concerned about this, because the recent offer seems to suggest not... Are we running out of tools to use?
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The percentages offered by this mob are insulting. Many of the older, long term guys haven't had a pay rise since 1996..yes, A scales and all that bollox, but in real terms, 30% should be on the table. Keep it simple..as a non arguable percentage across the board for all..separate from benefits and a stand alone. Non acceptance will be at the risk of the company..notice, small case.
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freightdog188, got it thanks. I was missing something, the word "retroactive". I read the effective date and thought "The 
". Although I still can't work out how it is too hard to include HDP from Jan 1st.
". Although I still can't work out how it is too hard to include HDP from Jan 1st.