Winds Of Change.
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Winds Of Change.
Obviously, the big picture is that the Mainlanders are pulling the strings at CX. Not a threat, just a statement of fact.
Big China with over one billion citizens has lots of available manpower to fill every vacant position at CX 100 times over at a fraction of current salaries paid. Anybody can be trained, re trained, tested and retested for a job. It takes time, but it can be done and it will be done. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and forever.
So if you're planning a career for the future at CX, my unsolicited advice would be to lower your expectations, because this is as good as it gets!
CX is a Chinese carrier. Check up on the working conditions and pay of the Mainlanders who are flying the same equipment at: Shanghai Airlines, China Southern, China Southwest, China Northern, China Eastern, Air China.... As Westerners are we really in a position to dictate how a sovereign Chinese airline is to be managed and operated? As "guests" at a foreign comany in a foreign land, can we superimpose our Western philosophy of work standards and compensation? Hellooooooo.
PS. I'm not an airline manager, just an ordinary USA driver who has travelled a great deal, "been there done all that," and one who has an affinity for practical reality.
Cheers
Big China with over one billion citizens has lots of available manpower to fill every vacant position at CX 100 times over at a fraction of current salaries paid. Anybody can be trained, re trained, tested and retested for a job. It takes time, but it can be done and it will be done. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and forever.
So if you're planning a career for the future at CX, my unsolicited advice would be to lower your expectations, because this is as good as it gets!
CX is a Chinese carrier. Check up on the working conditions and pay of the Mainlanders who are flying the same equipment at: Shanghai Airlines, China Southern, China Southwest, China Northern, China Eastern, Air China.... As Westerners are we really in a position to dictate how a sovereign Chinese airline is to be managed and operated? As "guests" at a foreign comany in a foreign land, can we superimpose our Western philosophy of work standards and compensation? Hellooooooo.
PS. I'm not an airline manager, just an ordinary USA driver who has travelled a great deal, "been there done all that," and one who has an affinity for practical reality.
Cheers
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Ummm, did you ever stop to think that perhaps the conditions of the mainland Chinese are not fit for dogs?
Ever noticed the higher incidence of accidents and incidents in the airlines you've mentioned and wonderd "Why?".
A forecast was made about a decade ago, that by the year 2014 there will be 1 hull loss per week, of an airline transport aircraft.
It seems that airline management - particularly those of "One World Alliance" are RUSHING to fulfill that prophesy by adversely degrading pilots' working conditions wrt rest periods, duty times, etc!
It is these IRRESPONSIBLE, purely economic-based decisions, with DISREGARD for Safety, that will greatly contribute to increased crashes.
Management with this LACK of SAFETY psyche have no place in aviation, and are a DANGER to the flying public!
Ever noticed the higher incidence of accidents and incidents in the airlines you've mentioned and wonderd "Why?".
A forecast was made about a decade ago, that by the year 2014 there will be 1 hull loss per week, of an airline transport aircraft.
It seems that airline management - particularly those of "One World Alliance" are RUSHING to fulfill that prophesy by adversely degrading pilots' working conditions wrt rest periods, duty times, etc!
It is these IRRESPONSIBLE, purely economic-based decisions, with DISREGARD for Safety, that will greatly contribute to increased crashes.
Management with this LACK of SAFETY psyche have no place in aviation, and are a DANGER to the flying public!
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Hey there Kaptin M, beating the pay, pay, pay drum...and now all of a sudden...it's safety, safety, safety.
Why the switch??
AND, if the pay is less, just why do you "assume" that safety is compromised?
Why the switch??
AND, if the pay is less, just why do you "assume" that safety is compromised?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Reprint ANY of my articles where I've beaten the pay drum, Mr Airline Magnate - or wind your neck in.
Safety has ALWAYS been my priority, and you my "friend" are one of those individuals who are a possible threat to it, if you ever get that museum of aircraft aiborne in Indonesia. And WHY do I say that 411A, because you are OBVIOUSLY strapped for cash, with your not so grandiose plans of dragging your Yankee @ss down to a third world/developing country (Indonesia) to set up (cheaply) some hotch-potch "fleet" of more clapped out aircraft (to compliment the C411), and pay your pilots peanuts with the attitude that because you're paying them SOMETHING (probably rupiah), they should be forever indebted to you, and accept whatever conditions are forced upon them.
I would guess there are more than a few people waiting for you to start your company (but I'll lay 10 to 1 it NEVER gets going
) and have its first incident so that your well publicised views on FTL's and pilot work conditions can be presented to the Insurance companies and courts, as evidence of your disdain and disregard of the same!
"AND, if the pay is less, just why do you "assume" that safety is compromised?"
Peruse the accident records, 411A, and see if you can tell me how frequently the names Korean, China Airlines, Aeroflot, Garuda, etc,appear. Then look up Cathay Pacific, QANTAS, Delta, et seq.
Safety has ALWAYS been my priority, and you my "friend" are one of those individuals who are a possible threat to it, if you ever get that museum of aircraft aiborne in Indonesia. And WHY do I say that 411A, because you are OBVIOUSLY strapped for cash, with your not so grandiose plans of dragging your Yankee @ss down to a third world/developing country (Indonesia) to set up (cheaply) some hotch-potch "fleet" of more clapped out aircraft (to compliment the C411), and pay your pilots peanuts with the attitude that because you're paying them SOMETHING (probably rupiah), they should be forever indebted to you, and accept whatever conditions are forced upon them.
I would guess there are more than a few people waiting for you to start your company (but I'll lay 10 to 1 it NEVER gets going
) and have its first incident so that your well publicised views on FTL's and pilot work conditions can be presented to the Insurance companies and courts, as evidence of your disdain and disregard of the same!"AND, if the pay is less, just why do you "assume" that safety is compromised?"
Peruse the accident records, 411A, and see if you can tell me how frequently the names Korean, China Airlines, Aeroflot, Garuda, etc,appear. Then look up Cathay Pacific, QANTAS, Delta, et seq.
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Kaptain M:
You are talking a lot of offensive and arrant rubbish and I suggest you read GlueBall's thread again because even though he is not living in Asia he seems to know more about what is going on than you do.
Recently I toured the Peoples Republic of China and flew on the National carrier plus five other domestic airlines. I have nothing but praise for all of them ie Air China, China Southwest, China Southern, China Eastern , China Northern and Hainan Airlines. Included amongst the above was a flight into a small airfield in Yan'an (north China) in a Dornier 328. From Air China's B747 to the small Dornier it was full marks to all. Every departure on time, clean tidy aircraft , courteous cabin service, adequate food (better than Qantas or Delta), newspapers and magazines, crews well turned out with caps on, good English PA, positive emergency briefings. From the point of view of a critical pilot flying as passenger I found no fault. Smooth taxying, smooth rotations, good landings off stabilised approaches. It was a pleasure to sit back and relax (something I suspect you could not do ) and watch the China countryside slide by.
Don't fool yourself they can do it and the sooner those winds of change start blowing in earnest the better off the region will be. Where the profit is made is where the profit should stay. Even you should be able to grasp that. Griffins especially take note.
KIFIS
You are talking a lot of offensive and arrant rubbish and I suggest you read GlueBall's thread again because even though he is not living in Asia he seems to know more about what is going on than you do.
Recently I toured the Peoples Republic of China and flew on the National carrier plus five other domestic airlines. I have nothing but praise for all of them ie Air China, China Southwest, China Southern, China Eastern , China Northern and Hainan Airlines. Included amongst the above was a flight into a small airfield in Yan'an (north China) in a Dornier 328. From Air China's B747 to the small Dornier it was full marks to all. Every departure on time, clean tidy aircraft , courteous cabin service, adequate food (better than Qantas or Delta), newspapers and magazines, crews well turned out with caps on, good English PA, positive emergency briefings. From the point of view of a critical pilot flying as passenger I found no fault. Smooth taxying, smooth rotations, good landings off stabilised approaches. It was a pleasure to sit back and relax (something I suspect you could not do ) and watch the China countryside slide by.
Don't fool yourself they can do it and the sooner those winds of change start blowing in earnest the better off the region will be. Where the profit is made is where the profit should stay. Even you should be able to grasp that. Griffins especially take note.
KIFIS
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
...and you were able to ascertain all of that as a passenger seated in the cabin, KIFIS.
Poor, simplistic sucker you!!
BTW, I've got this nice, shiny, red car that I'm selling on behalf of my Grandmother - she only ever drove once a week, and the tyres are the originals.........
Poor, simplistic sucker you!!
BTW, I've got this nice, shiny, red car that I'm selling on behalf of my Grandmother - she only ever drove once a week, and the tyres are the originals.........
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KIFIS:
Please let's not have a "Spyplane III" thread
But just a gentle reminder that not one but two airliners from the motherland crashed very, very recently (plus one from what you would probably term the renegade province) - not the best of report cards to back up your claims.
Please let's not have a "Spyplane III" thread
But just a gentle reminder that not one but two airliners from the motherland crashed very, very recently (plus one from what you would probably term the renegade province) - not the best of report cards to back up your claims.
The Reverend
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"From the point of view of a critical pilot...".
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KIFIS,
May I ask what the weather was like during all of this and is this how you judge the quality of a safe airline.
Every departure on time, clean tidy aircraft , courteous cabin service, adequate food (better than Qantas or Delta), newspapers and magazines, crews well turned out with caps on, good English PA, positive emergency briefings. From the point of view of a critical pilot flying as passenger I found no fault. Smooth taxying, smooth rotations, good landings off stabilised approaches.
I'm afraid I look at stats, training/CRM and experience for a start.
May I ask what the weather was like during all of this and is this how you judge the quality of a safe airline.
Every departure on time, clean tidy aircraft , courteous cabin service, adequate food (better than Qantas or Delta), newspapers and magazines, crews well turned out with caps on, good English PA, positive emergency briefings. From the point of view of a critical pilot flying as passenger I found no fault. Smooth taxying, smooth rotations, good landings off stabilised approaches.
I'm afraid I look at stats, training/CRM and experience for a start.
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Hmmm, seems that the idea of..."us is better because we are expats, they are no good because they are locals...." has crept in here.
Training is the key. As many (if not most) of the local guys have gone to Boeing (or AirBus) for the required training...many now believe that the locals were given a "pass"??
KIFIS appears to notice the writing on the wall.....expats will find the pickings slim in the future in Asia... especially with the confrontational attitude many demonstrate.
Training is the key. As many (if not most) of the local guys have gone to Boeing (or AirBus) for the required training...many now believe that the locals were given a "pass"??
KIFIS appears to notice the writing on the wall.....expats will find the pickings slim in the future in Asia... especially with the confrontational attitude many demonstrate.
Last edited by 411A; 28th May 2002 at 21:28.
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At a recent safety & performance briefing the discussion went onto the subject of engine out sids, the operators up north had no idea of what was going on, they have been using the standard EOSID for no obsticals ie R/W hdg to 1500 agl then level accelerate for all thier ops, thank god for realiable engines.
The crash in Korea what was he doing that far outside the circling area?
The crash in Korea what was he doing that far outside the circling area?
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Kaptain M:
I spent a lifetime in the same camp that you are in and I understand your expatriate mentality only too well. Your use of the word "dog" is in character and explains almost all. What it does not explain though is why you are where you are. Perhaps I can help you here by asking you to commit to memory the following short poem that was penned by G.M. Glaskin who happens to be a countryman of yours. Quote:
" Mine is a ratbag country
Difficult to endure
A nation of con-men and barmaids
Immersed in their own manure "
G.M. Glaskin is an author and writer who was born in Australia. He abandoned the country to live in Europe and he seems to understand why he did it. This leads me to ask the question why did you leave ???
KIFIS
P.S. If you wish I can give you the name of G.M. Glaskin book that contains the above and you can read more about what he has to say.
I spent a lifetime in the same camp that you are in and I understand your expatriate mentality only too well. Your use of the word "dog" is in character and explains almost all. What it does not explain though is why you are where you are. Perhaps I can help you here by asking you to commit to memory the following short poem that was penned by G.M. Glaskin who happens to be a countryman of yours. Quote:
" Mine is a ratbag country
Difficult to endure
A nation of con-men and barmaids
Immersed in their own manure "
G.M. Glaskin is an author and writer who was born in Australia. He abandoned the country to live in Europe and he seems to understand why he did it. This leads me to ask the question why did you leave ???
KIFIS
P.S. If you wish I can give you the name of G.M. Glaskin book that contains the above and you can read more about what he has to say.
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KIFIS:
Your taking offence at the term "dog" is understandable at first glance, although "not fit for a dog" is a non-racist term to describe sub-standard conditions a human is (unreasonably) expected to endure. I don't know Kaptin M personally, but given the standards of his postings I do not assume he was trying to make any implicit or explicit connections with that infamous sign.
However, given what Glaskin writes about Australia, what attraction does the place hold for you?
Your taking offence at the term "dog" is understandable at first glance, although "not fit for a dog" is a non-racist term to describe sub-standard conditions a human is (unreasonably) expected to endure. I don't know Kaptin M personally, but given the standards of his postings I do not assume he was trying to make any implicit or explicit connections with that infamous sign.
However, given what Glaskin writes about Australia, what attraction does the place hold for you?
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 29th May 2002 at 08:18.
The Reverend
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KIFIS, I have found a quote that fits you to a T. It is from one of your favourite authors to boot.
No doubt you will parry my cheek with a suitable epithet. I look forward to your reply. HotDog.
"Ah, well, I am a great and sublime fool. But then I am God's fool, and all His work must be contemplated with respect."-- Mark Twain
Grandpa Aerotart
Just love it.......anytime anyone mentions the accident/incident record of countries with clear issues in labour relations, culture, CRM, SOPs, promotional practices, maintenance etc etc....someone yells racist.
KIFIS I suggest you take a long hard look at the accident records of all the worlds airlines since say the 60's or early 70's and see if any trends pop out at you.
Garuda alone have crashed the equivelent of a whole airline worth of jets in the last 30 years.
Yes you'd be hard pressed finding an airline anywhere that hasn't had a hull loss in the last 30 years...but some places are a lot more prone than others
Chuck.
KIFIS I suggest you take a long hard look at the accident records of all the worlds airlines since say the 60's or early 70's and see if any trends pop out at you.
Garuda alone have crashed the equivelent of a whole airline worth of jets in the last 30 years.
Yes you'd be hard pressed finding an airline anywhere that hasn't had a hull loss in the last 30 years...but some places are a lot more prone than others
Chuck.
The Reverend
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Glueball "wide body queen", you sure move around a lot. Just to set matters straight, CX is still a British owned and controlled company in spite of operating out of Hong Kong S.A.R. China.
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glaskin, like john pilger (secret country fame) had principle. they were not intimidated by people in power but stood up for what they believed in like us barley scabs and the many more to follow. we are the custodians of the new Cathay pacific whether you like it or not.
Hot Dog
You would not be suggesting that KIFIS belongs in the "Captains from Hell" thread are you??
He gave me a sector once...but from recall the weather was a bit on the nose.
You would not be suggesting that KIFIS belongs in the "Captains from Hell" thread are you??
He gave me a sector once...but from recall the weather was a bit on the nose.