CX want a fight, why?
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good grief.....not the brightest bunch of bulbs on the chandelier are we boys? CC is NOT industrial action. Let me understand this.....a HK court is going to agree with CX in suspending my housing based on the fact that I am ADHERING TO MY CONTRACT AS IT IS WRITTEN...?!! Really, that makes sense to you? I am happy to fulfill my contract to the LETTER. Unfortunately, many of my colleagues are happy to fulfill their contracts to the letter and beyond (G days....volunteering for commercials on TV and sim trials etc, etc
). You can do what you want, but if you show up on my flight having done something to undermine the collective best-interests of myself, my family and my colleagues, then you can further demonstrate your 'fine' qualities to me by operating 10 hours (with a break of course). Oh, and i'm sure that myself and/or the other FO will need a sector... Your choice. The time has come to pick sides. If you choose against me and my colleagues, then don't be surprised that you will be treated likewise (all within the terms of my contract of course! 
).
). You can do what you want, but if you show up on my flight having done something to undermine the collective best-interests of myself, my family and my colleagues, then you can further demonstrate your 'fine' qualities to me by operating 10 hours (with a break of course). Oh, and i'm sure that myself and/or the other FO will need a sector... Your choice. The time has come to pick sides. If you choose against me and my colleagues, then don't be surprised that you will be treated likewise (all within the terms of my contract of course! ).
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: crewbag
Age: 51
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CC? That's what your going to make your grand stand with?
With no further plans for escalation when the counter-blows start?
You're quite right, they can't take away our housing allowance for CC. But they sure can if you strike.
With no further plans for escalation when the counter-blows start?
You're quite right, they can't take away our housing allowance for CC. But they sure can if you strike.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UAE
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cx tactics
Company is showing their hand...
They are reforming sick day policy to make sickout difficult...
However for jurisdictions where they can't change policy, due to statutory requirements they use closing the Manchester base as an example of keeping anyone on a base thinking of action in check...ie if you pull any stunts the base will close.
Add to that the A day withdrawal to mess with those on a base to keep their tails between their legs...
And you can see that the CX is gearing for industrial action ...
They are also asking for 3 man long haul and 2 man wocl ops to further strengthen their hand for future industrial action due to an already acute crew shortage...
They are trying to cover their only weakness... Crew shortage..
Don't let them
They are reforming sick day policy to make sickout difficult...
However for jurisdictions where they can't change policy, due to statutory requirements they use closing the Manchester base as an example of keeping anyone on a base thinking of action in check...ie if you pull any stunts the base will close.
Add to that the A day withdrawal to mess with those on a base to keep their tails between their legs...
And you can see that the CX is gearing for industrial action ...
They are also asking for 3 man long haul and 2 man wocl ops to further strengthen their hand for future industrial action due to an already acute crew shortage...
They are trying to cover their only weakness... Crew shortage..
Don't let them
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Canceling A days actually weakens CX's hand as now they have only 30 days free reserve from based crew annually. So while that is inconvenient for commuters, it is worse for CX than unlimited strings of A days. You can put a reserve day in front of every trip, but those go away with the sick note too. With all this new reserve on bases, pilots will be happy to book off the day of their trip, if not mere hours before sign on. (Same can be said of HKG crew who can't get proper rest in those crappy hotels before the flight) Getting that sick note can take the better part of a day you know
Cheer up. The possibilities are limitless.
Cheer up. The possibilities are limitless.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good job boys and girls, it is working! They are getting desperate and making threats that are self destructive, like revising the sickness policy.
They are down on the ground. Don't stand back and watch them recompose. Time to jump on top and finish them off. Lets bump that 17% up to 30% and you'll be staring at your pay rise by early June.
They are down on the ground. Don't stand back and watch them recompose. Time to jump on top and finish them off. Lets bump that 17% up to 30% and you'll be staring at your pay rise by early June.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To many of the posters that pound their keyboards with conviction….a short history lesson for those that were not here in 1999.
At the time, emotions and stress had built up after several years during which we were at the receiving end of a constant stream of threats, pay cuts and reduced conditions; parallel to a concerted campaign by the Company to demean and diminish pilots among the other employees (Commitment Days).
Letters from the then DFO contained threats of employment action against those “perceived” to be working against the best interests of the Company and trainers were threatened. At that time, the AOA leadership was very strong and the association membership consisted of 95% of Cathay pilots.
An equally aggressive letter to the pilots from the AOA answered every threatening letter written by the Company. It was a non-stop, high stakes, roller coast ride of emotion.
Except for a sizeable group of members from Australia who were the living casualties of the industrial “dispute” that occurred in Australia in 1989, and which culminated in them loosing their jobs, the AOA membership was united, tired of the cuts to our contracts, and most pilots wanted to respond in some way.
Many of the Aussies, who had seen this movie before, were very reluctant to take part in any industrial action that would risk a repeat of them loosing their jobs. The Company sensed this weakness and aggressively nurtured this sentiment.
A point was reached where pilots were in no condition to be flying. The stress was immense and emotions had frayed to the point where people’s mental capacity was genuinely diminished and a boiling point was reached in 1999. Following a very emotional AOA meeting in TST, a sick out campaign began the next morning.
The two Company flight surgeons, having witnessed first hand the build up of stress, were extremely supportive of the pilots on the line. They issued sick notes to any and all….without question (and paid a price for their support after the event).
What happened next was quite illuminating. It began as a trickle, but then snowballed as a large number of B scalers began to report sick to support the small number of A scalers who initiated the action in Hong Kong (much to the relief of the A scalers who got the ball rolling).
The Company was quick to respond. We were eviscerated in the local press….which characterized us as spoiled and overpaid miscreants who were faking illness against a reasonable and just employer.
As days went by, and as airplanes were parked, a number of pilots elected to avoid, prevaricate, deceive, and do any number of things to not call in sick for fear of losing their jobs. Even those who had been on G days for the first week of the campaign, and after 500 pilots had already reported unfit, were still too terrified and simply unable to steel themselves to the task. Many went to work, some sneaked into work, and flew with an immense sense of self loathing. The stress these pilots operated under was incredible.
The tech logs had names blacked out so no one could check to see who was still flying….
Many of the offenders at the time were, surprisingly, among those who previously pounded their chest and screamed the loudest for AOA action. Many crumbled under self imposed doubts, admitting to friends of having reconciled themselves to being cowards. It could not have been easy for these pilots to go to work and fly. Long time friendships ended; and many personal relationships fell apart.
To this day, among those of us who were there, everyone knows which side of the line each person stood on.
To many of the posters here who pound their keyboards with conviction….
At the time, emotions and stress had built up after several years during which we were at the receiving end of a constant stream of threats, pay cuts and reduced conditions; parallel to a concerted campaign by the Company to demean and diminish pilots among the other employees (Commitment Days).
Letters from the then DFO contained threats of employment action against those “perceived” to be working against the best interests of the Company and trainers were threatened. At that time, the AOA leadership was very strong and the association membership consisted of 95% of Cathay pilots.
An equally aggressive letter to the pilots from the AOA answered every threatening letter written by the Company. It was a non-stop, high stakes, roller coast ride of emotion.
Except for a sizeable group of members from Australia who were the living casualties of the industrial “dispute” that occurred in Australia in 1989, and which culminated in them loosing their jobs, the AOA membership was united, tired of the cuts to our contracts, and most pilots wanted to respond in some way.
Many of the Aussies, who had seen this movie before, were very reluctant to take part in any industrial action that would risk a repeat of them loosing their jobs. The Company sensed this weakness and aggressively nurtured this sentiment.
A point was reached where pilots were in no condition to be flying. The stress was immense and emotions had frayed to the point where people’s mental capacity was genuinely diminished and a boiling point was reached in 1999. Following a very emotional AOA meeting in TST, a sick out campaign began the next morning.
The two Company flight surgeons, having witnessed first hand the build up of stress, were extremely supportive of the pilots on the line. They issued sick notes to any and all….without question (and paid a price for their support after the event).
What happened next was quite illuminating. It began as a trickle, but then snowballed as a large number of B scalers began to report sick to support the small number of A scalers who initiated the action in Hong Kong (much to the relief of the A scalers who got the ball rolling).
The Company was quick to respond. We were eviscerated in the local press….which characterized us as spoiled and overpaid miscreants who were faking illness against a reasonable and just employer.
As days went by, and as airplanes were parked, a number of pilots elected to avoid, prevaricate, deceive, and do any number of things to not call in sick for fear of losing their jobs. Even those who had been on G days for the first week of the campaign, and after 500 pilots had already reported unfit, were still too terrified and simply unable to steel themselves to the task. Many went to work, some sneaked into work, and flew with an immense sense of self loathing. The stress these pilots operated under was incredible.
The tech logs had names blacked out so no one could check to see who was still flying….
Many of the offenders at the time were, surprisingly, among those who previously pounded their chest and screamed the loudest for AOA action. Many crumbled under self imposed doubts, admitting to friends of having reconciled themselves to being cowards. It could not have been easy for these pilots to go to work and fly. Long time friendships ended; and many personal relationships fell apart.
To this day, among those of us who were there, everyone knows which side of the line each person stood on.
To many of the posters here who pound their keyboards with conviction….
Last edited by raven11; 6th May 2014 at 11:25. Reason: edit
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: crewbag
Age: 51
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ravens post should be read and understood by all. The post belongs on the AOA boards, being almost misplaced here among the garbage and the masks.
You don't point a gun unless you're willing to pull the trigger, and you don't encourage others while harbouring doubts yourself.
Have a good, long think about where we are, what is under threat and what is at risk if we break under pressure.
It's very, very real.
You don't point a gun unless you're willing to pull the trigger, and you don't encourage others while harbouring doubts yourself.
Have a good, long think about where we are, what is under threat and what is at risk if we break under pressure.
It's very, very real.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While plans for a tactical strategy certainly belong somewhere else it is NOT 1999. There might be some similarities (especially amongst the negotiation by the company--or complete lack thereof) but the situation has dramatically changed.
1. The company LOST the lawsuit for wrongful termination as it will going forward so there is precedent.
2. A number of judgments have been subsequently made regarding many labor issues (including SHP for the cabin crew and other labour issues) and in ALL of them the company has lost. We can argue amounts and how the wheels of justice grind slowly but most law is based on precedent which exists now.
3. Workers have seen a continuous decline in $$$, rosters, a continuous increase in inflation, and a continuous increase in work--this can't be portrayed as a 74 hour "A scaler" sitting on the beach in Monte Carlo anymore. Moreover, more of the flying public is seeing pilots as being working professionals who aren't overpaid to make important decisions. One need look no further than the Malaysian incident to see how much scrutiny, responsibility, and trust is placed in crews. in In fact, reactions to some high profile accidents have shocked some of the public in how little starting pilots are paid. So the "prima donna" factor ain't there anymore.
4. Most importantly, the company--being a capital intensive operation--is facing substantial new equipment orders at the same time it faces increased competitive pressures that didn't previously exist in a protected market that ain't protected anymore. So parking jets as it's just turning profitable is something it (despite it's bravado) can't afford. It MUST keep the jets flying if it is to survive. AND the lead time to train new replacements is significant at a time the training department is maxed out simply trying to fill cockpits. So it can't afford massive firings or industrial action. In terms of war chest, the financial position ain't what it was in 1999 to support a major operation would it occur.
The AOA has significant cards in it's hand so long as it doesn't fold--and one would hope can go "all in" if it becomes necessary. I hope ALCON understand this--including those who SHOULD be negotiating as adults for the Company. And hopefully those who would be selfish can manage to consider something beyond their boat payments when looking at the larger view. The decisions made in the next few months will affect profitability and livelihoods for years.
If the situation were to worsen for whatever reason, when your grandkid asks you "Where were you during the big strike of 2014 ?" I'd HATE to have to answer him "ummmm...I was working G days to pay off my yacht."
1. The company LOST the lawsuit for wrongful termination as it will going forward so there is precedent.
2. A number of judgments have been subsequently made regarding many labor issues (including SHP for the cabin crew and other labour issues) and in ALL of them the company has lost. We can argue amounts and how the wheels of justice grind slowly but most law is based on precedent which exists now.
3. Workers have seen a continuous decline in $$$, rosters, a continuous increase in inflation, and a continuous increase in work--this can't be portrayed as a 74 hour "A scaler" sitting on the beach in Monte Carlo anymore. Moreover, more of the flying public is seeing pilots as being working professionals who aren't overpaid to make important decisions. One need look no further than the Malaysian incident to see how much scrutiny, responsibility, and trust is placed in crews. in In fact, reactions to some high profile accidents have shocked some of the public in how little starting pilots are paid. So the "prima donna" factor ain't there anymore.
4. Most importantly, the company--being a capital intensive operation--is facing substantial new equipment orders at the same time it faces increased competitive pressures that didn't previously exist in a protected market that ain't protected anymore. So parking jets as it's just turning profitable is something it (despite it's bravado) can't afford. It MUST keep the jets flying if it is to survive. AND the lead time to train new replacements is significant at a time the training department is maxed out simply trying to fill cockpits. So it can't afford massive firings or industrial action. In terms of war chest, the financial position ain't what it was in 1999 to support a major operation would it occur.
The AOA has significant cards in it's hand so long as it doesn't fold--and one would hope can go "all in" if it becomes necessary. I hope ALCON understand this--including those who SHOULD be negotiating as adults for the Company. And hopefully those who would be selfish can manage to consider something beyond their boat payments when looking at the larger view. The decisions made in the next few months will affect profitability and livelihoods for years.
If the situation were to worsen for whatever reason, when your grandkid asks you "Where were you during the big strike of 2014 ?" I'd HATE to have to answer him "ummmm...I was working G days to pay off my yacht."
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quadspeed,
CC is the first step, assuming mediation does not work. We have never experienced mediation with the company. So the outcome seems very uncertain. I doubt there would ever be a full fledged strike (this group is far too fractured and spineless for that, no thanks to guys like yourself), but some form of escalated IA is certainly a possibility. It would not take much given the shortages on some fleets to make the whole house of cards come crumbling down.
Your lack of answers are, in fact, answers.
CC is the first step, assuming mediation does not work. We have never experienced mediation with the company. So the outcome seems very uncertain. I doubt there would ever be a full fledged strike (this group is far too fractured and spineless for that, no thanks to guys like yourself), but some form of escalated IA is certainly a possibility. It would not take much given the shortages on some fleets to make the whole house of cards come crumbling down.
Your lack of answers are, in fact, answers.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: crewbag
Age: 51
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like I've said before, I don't think you've really thought this through to its logical conclusion. Even when you write the very words you fail to grasp their significence.
Don't point an unloaded gun.
Don't point an unloaded gun.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shep,
Another great piece. Lots of substance to make your argument.
Quad,
The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."
Another great piece. Lots of substance to make your argument.
Quad,
The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another thing - the large increase in competition since 1999 (LCC & middle east carriers)
IMHO this means the government is much less likely to step in. Cathay stopping or reducing operations (for however long) is no longer a massive problem for HK Inc., just an inconvenience. Hainan Group (for example) could quickly wet lease a lot of aircraft to HKE/ HKA, and Jetstar could also ramp up fast.
IMHO this means the government is much less likely to step in. Cathay stopping or reducing operations (for however long) is no longer a massive problem for HK Inc., just an inconvenience. Hainan Group (for example) could quickly wet lease a lot of aircraft to HKE/ HKA, and Jetstar could also ramp up fast.