CX want a fight, why?
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cxorcist
Oh, you'd be surprised, and if you've ever spent any time peering down on Ashley Road I think you'd be hearing the echoes of many great debates right now.
Once we get through the sheer frustration, resentment and anger, real grownups need to have a real think about where we want to go and how we go about it. While your solution of CC and then "some form of escalated IA " has the undertones of too many beers too late at the plaza, perhaps more radical tactics should be used? As you've already agreed, a strike will break the bank for far too many far too early and the company knows this. At the same time they're taunting us to go into Coordinated Contract Compliance, which unless you're a bull raging about in a ring should give rise to some serious pause and debate about what's gonna happen next.
Quad,
The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."
The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."
Once we get through the sheer frustration, resentment and anger, real grownups need to have a real think about where we want to go and how we go about it. While your solution of CC and then "some form of escalated IA " has the undertones of too many beers too late at the plaza, perhaps more radical tactics should be used? As you've already agreed, a strike will break the bank for far too many far too early and the company knows this. At the same time they're taunting us to go into Coordinated Contract Compliance, which unless you're a bull raging about in a ring should give rise to some serious pause and debate about what's gonna happen next.
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Wow.....quad.....the goal of your "it's time" thread is blowing up the AOA because you're dissatisfied over the lack of progress in talks yet here are busy saying how the sky will fall if we dig in for a necessary fight.
That's what I'd call an absolutely untenable and inconsistent position.
Unification under the AOA remains our best option at this juncture to present a coherent front in negotiating a just contract. It would be nice if mediation will produce a decent result however there's absolutely no reason (given the punitive and frankly childish bargaining position of the company) to believe that it will. As it runs its course we need be prepared for the follow on actions that will very likely happen. No one here can fix this; what we CAN do is collectively DEAL with the likely outcome in the best manner possible. So doing in a whiny, fragmented selfish scared-rabbit manner will result in long term losses to us all.
Whining about the situation--one way or the other--is useless. It is what it is and our part of the equation is to deal with it. Were we "tricked" into negotiating in good faith by elements within the company that had no intent of so doing ? Perhaps, but all we have lost is a little time which actually, from the situation, may well favor us with commitments for aircraft orders and going into the summer travel season.
There is presently all kinds of room for negotiations--not only in basic pay and rostering but other areas; everything from performance and profit based incentives to bid or preference systems allowing officers to decide lengths of trips and work for more efficient rosters (i.e. a based officer might elect to spend more time "on the road" flying regional trips to decrease commutes taking some of the burden off HKG crews. Or scheduling consistent on clock rosters; even making swaps more manageable). Things which could be an easy win-win for everyone if a problem solving approach were taken instead of management by authoritarian autocracy. Companies which practice win-win and SOME forms of give and take make money in competitive markets; companies which practice scorched earth, well poisoning, and management by fear and intimidation will fail.
From an economics perspective, no one WANTS a fight--in the short term it will cost both us and the Company money. But sometimes one HAS to fight and there's every indication (by the complete lack of negotiation on the part of the company, the punitive bad-faith actions, its legal track record, and history) we will have to fight unless we want to see a situation much worse than the status quo. Moreover, if we fail to do so now there's every indication not only will we have to live with a horrible--and shifting to the worse--contract for the rest of our careers, but also the AOA and any collective input we might have had toward our future will probably fall apart. This has nothing to do with with anger, resentments, frustration or really feelings in any way (although they might be useful to some in actually getting ready to ACT on something)--it's a rational analysis of the situation which, for better or worse, is likely going to REQUIRE a fight.
If a fight is required we will never--in my lifetime at least--be in a better position to do it than we are now.
Few things in life worthwhile are gained without hard work. Hopefully the Company will realize we collectively have the resolve and staying power to force a just contract if need be and will act as rational adults bargaining in good faith. I don't think this will happen and in any case believe we need be prepared to collectively force it to.
That's what I'd call an absolutely untenable and inconsistent position.
Unification under the AOA remains our best option at this juncture to present a coherent front in negotiating a just contract. It would be nice if mediation will produce a decent result however there's absolutely no reason (given the punitive and frankly childish bargaining position of the company) to believe that it will. As it runs its course we need be prepared for the follow on actions that will very likely happen. No one here can fix this; what we CAN do is collectively DEAL with the likely outcome in the best manner possible. So doing in a whiny, fragmented selfish scared-rabbit manner will result in long term losses to us all.
Whining about the situation--one way or the other--is useless. It is what it is and our part of the equation is to deal with it. Were we "tricked" into negotiating in good faith by elements within the company that had no intent of so doing ? Perhaps, but all we have lost is a little time which actually, from the situation, may well favor us with commitments for aircraft orders and going into the summer travel season.
There is presently all kinds of room for negotiations--not only in basic pay and rostering but other areas; everything from performance and profit based incentives to bid or preference systems allowing officers to decide lengths of trips and work for more efficient rosters (i.e. a based officer might elect to spend more time "on the road" flying regional trips to decrease commutes taking some of the burden off HKG crews. Or scheduling consistent on clock rosters; even making swaps more manageable). Things which could be an easy win-win for everyone if a problem solving approach were taken instead of management by authoritarian autocracy. Companies which practice win-win and SOME forms of give and take make money in competitive markets; companies which practice scorched earth, well poisoning, and management by fear and intimidation will fail.
From an economics perspective, no one WANTS a fight--in the short term it will cost both us and the Company money. But sometimes one HAS to fight and there's every indication (by the complete lack of negotiation on the part of the company, the punitive bad-faith actions, its legal track record, and history) we will have to fight unless we want to see a situation much worse than the status quo. Moreover, if we fail to do so now there's every indication not only will we have to live with a horrible--and shifting to the worse--contract for the rest of our careers, but also the AOA and any collective input we might have had toward our future will probably fall apart. This has nothing to do with with anger, resentments, frustration or really feelings in any way (although they might be useful to some in actually getting ready to ACT on something)--it's a rational analysis of the situation which, for better or worse, is likely going to REQUIRE a fight.
If a fight is required we will never--in my lifetime at least--be in a better position to do it than we are now.
Few things in life worthwhile are gained without hard work. Hopefully the Company will realize we collectively have the resolve and staying power to force a just contract if need be and will act as rational adults bargaining in good faith. I don't think this will happen and in any case believe we need be prepared to collectively force it to.
Last edited by Shep69; 7th May 2014 at 12:11.
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Know this.
Not much will change until we change.
Right now Management know that "fear will always trump courage" when it comes to dealing with us.
Until we collecitively realize that we hold the carkeys to the revenue supply and act out of courage instead of fear, don't expect much to change.
Right now Management know that "fear will always trump courage" when it comes to dealing with us.
Until we collecitively realize that we hold the carkeys to the revenue supply and act out of courage instead of fear, don't expect much to change.
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CX want a fight, why?
CX don't want a fight. SK wants a fight because he enjoys it and NR will refuse any extra money or leniency in CoS negotiations as he has a strong dislike of pilots.
GMA will then take the rap for the ensuing disruptions this summer and beyond.
GMA will then take the rap for the ensuing disruptions this summer and beyond.
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Quad speed,
What do you mean no one can afford a strike?
A strike for one day would put the airline in chaos for a week. Who can't afford one day a month loss in pay and housing?
And if CC is so ineffective, why is the company making such a big deal of it and even calling it industrial action when it is simply doing exactly what your contract asks you to do with out going above and beyond your contract?
What do you mean no one can afford a strike?
A strike for one day would put the airline in chaos for a week. Who can't afford one day a month loss in pay and housing?
And if CC is so ineffective, why is the company making such a big deal of it and even calling it industrial action when it is simply doing exactly what your contract asks you to do with out going above and beyond your contract?
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Brown nose, the pilot body is made up of three groups of people. Those who recently joined and have little to lose, those who have done financially well and have little to lose, and in-between is the great majority.
Unfortunately those beating their collective chests loudest over CC have done financially well (ironically because of employment by CX) and have nothing to lose in these negotiations.
It's best you don't forget that.
We didn't vote to not answer our phones on days off, we voted for CC which, as the company points out, is a whole lot more. Many don't seem to grasp this. If you seriously think you are going to lose only one days pay for industrial action you are badly mistaken and perhaps need a history lesson.
I won't bore you with details, suffice to say that during SARS the company had no choice but to inform the markets what it's financial situation would be when it was bleeding money as sadly no one was traveling.
It advised it could shut down completely for at least 12 months before starting operations back up, it has very very very deep pockets.
It's also best you don't forget that.
Unfortunately those beating their collective chests loudest over CC have done financially well (ironically because of employment by CX) and have nothing to lose in these negotiations.
It's best you don't forget that.
We didn't vote to not answer our phones on days off, we voted for CC which, as the company points out, is a whole lot more. Many don't seem to grasp this. If you seriously think you are going to lose only one days pay for industrial action you are badly mistaken and perhaps need a history lesson.
I won't bore you with details, suffice to say that during SARS the company had no choice but to inform the markets what it's financial situation would be when it was bleeding money as sadly no one was traveling.
It advised it could shut down completely for at least 12 months before starting operations back up, it has very very very deep pockets.
It's also best you don't forget that.
Why does just abiding by our contract have to be shouted from the rooftops? If CX can't survive with most people simply complying with what they are employed to do it's not our problem - it's theirs! 
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AnotherDay....don't be silly.....
Cathay shutting down for a year...you can't be serious? They don't own Hong Kong! Do you think the Hong Kong government would allow it? Would the mainland Chinese government tolerate it for even one second? Give me a break, the local economy would be in tatters.
What about our airport landing slots, all over the world...they would lose them all to other, smarter, carriers. What about our pilot flying currency? Indeed our very qualifications, would be wiped out...they would need to re-train and reQualify 3000 pilots? What would that cost? Not to mention, and this is a big one, no bonuses for senior management. What about the shareholders....do you think they would tolerate such stupidly?
It would cost them a mountain of money. The very idea that they would ruin the Company, over a refusal to grant a single digit percent pay increase, because they have very deep pockets....that very notion is laughable! Especially since, as you say, they have very deep pockets....what's a few percent weighed against the potential loss of the entire company.
Your 23 posts mark you as one of our middle managers....I'm not surprised....is this the best you can come up with? Surely you can do better than threaten to shut down the company over what amounts to a pittance in cost for a Company that has historically pulled in billions of dollars each and every year.
Get real!
Cathay shutting down for a year...you can't be serious? They don't own Hong Kong! Do you think the Hong Kong government would allow it? Would the mainland Chinese government tolerate it for even one second? Give me a break, the local economy would be in tatters.
What about our airport landing slots, all over the world...they would lose them all to other, smarter, carriers. What about our pilot flying currency? Indeed our very qualifications, would be wiped out...they would need to re-train and reQualify 3000 pilots? What would that cost? Not to mention, and this is a big one, no bonuses for senior management. What about the shareholders....do you think they would tolerate such stupidly?
It would cost them a mountain of money. The very idea that they would ruin the Company, over a refusal to grant a single digit percent pay increase, because they have very deep pockets....that very notion is laughable! Especially since, as you say, they have very deep pockets....what's a few percent weighed against the potential loss of the entire company.
Your 23 posts mark you as one of our middle managers....I'm not surprised....is this the best you can come up with? Surely you can do better than threaten to shut down the company over what amounts to a pittance in cost for a Company that has historically pulled in billions of dollars each and every year.
Get real!
Last edited by raven11; 23rd May 2014 at 10:09.
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Thankyou Raven!
Sometimes I think we give these "managers" too much credit for their smarts. The main advantage they have over us is discipline. We are so impatient that we lose our focus and stop seeing the big picture.
What is the big picture I hear you ask? This company thinks it is OK to deteriorate the value of pilot compensation with inflation lagging pay rises. They think it is OK to use RA65 as a tool to gain concessions. They think expat housing is overly generous in the face of incredible inflation in Hong Kong. They think fatigue only applies to cabin crew, and that safety is nothing more than a punchline. This company thinks a $2000HK bonus on a profit of $2.6 billion is being generous. This company is the stingiest group of penny wise, pound foolish scrooges I have ever witnessed. They make money in spite of themselves because they call Hong Kong home.
They think they are saving money on crew right now. OK, but they are actually costing themselves money when it comes to this pilot. My productivity is in the toilet compared to a few years back. If they are happy for me to write 500 hours in the last 12 months on my medical application every year, so be it. They can have it. I'd rather work more for more money and a fairer set of rostering practices, but that is really up to them. The choice is theirs. I suggest each of my colleagues take the same stance.
Sometimes I think we give these "managers" too much credit for their smarts. The main advantage they have over us is discipline. We are so impatient that we lose our focus and stop seeing the big picture.
What is the big picture I hear you ask? This company thinks it is OK to deteriorate the value of pilot compensation with inflation lagging pay rises. They think it is OK to use RA65 as a tool to gain concessions. They think expat housing is overly generous in the face of incredible inflation in Hong Kong. They think fatigue only applies to cabin crew, and that safety is nothing more than a punchline. This company thinks a $2000HK bonus on a profit of $2.6 billion is being generous. This company is the stingiest group of penny wise, pound foolish scrooges I have ever witnessed. They make money in spite of themselves because they call Hong Kong home.
They think they are saving money on crew right now. OK, but they are actually costing themselves money when it comes to this pilot. My productivity is in the toilet compared to a few years back. If they are happy for me to write 500 hours in the last 12 months on my medical application every year, so be it. They can have it. I'd rather work more for more money and a fairer set of rostering practices, but that is really up to them. The choice is theirs. I suggest each of my colleagues take the same stance.
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CX want a fight because there has never been a time where they don't want a fight. They don't care about money or product quality or anything else. Never have done.
The only thing that Swire management are interested in is CONTROL. It has been like that for decades.
The only thing that Swire management are interested in is CONTROL. It has been like that for decades.
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Get rid of PV and PW and the negotiations with the Company will improve. As for GDLC and DD(version 2) they are nobody's and will follow whoever is pulling their strings.
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cpdude,
That's a ridiculous comment. While not perfect, there are no two pilots better suited and more familiar with CX's tactics than PW and PV. They have seen all this before and finally have some good help from CB and in the not so distant past, DD. If you think you know more, by all means get in there and do us all some good. Otherwise, put your oar in the water and start rowing, or you could just keep doing the company's work for them by undermining our negotiators.
That's a ridiculous comment. While not perfect, there are no two pilots better suited and more familiar with CX's tactics than PW and PV. They have seen all this before and finally have some good help from CB and in the not so distant past, DD. If you think you know more, by all means get in there and do us all some good. Otherwise, put your oar in the water and start rowing, or you could just keep doing the company's work for them by undermining our negotiators.
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Care to provide any details? Or are you just going to throw generic spears? Perhaps you should air your grievances on the AOA forums? Or are you unwilling to put your name next to these charges?
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Care to provide any details?
That's precisely the point cxorcist - there are NO DETAILS, absolutely none. Can you give me one single achievement that PV and PW have managed in their years in charge?
All the good help that you allege DD gave resulted in exactly what? Again, nothing. Good luck to CB but he seems to be another DD.
All the good help that you allege DD gave resulted in exactly what? Again, nothing. Good luck to CB but he seems to be another DD.