What About The Senior Guys???
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What About The Senior Guys???
So much of what is written here and discussed everywhere else is about the plight of the newbie or relative newbie. What about the guy's who've been around awhile? What's the union doing for them? I don't see anyone talking about a seniority based roster practice. If you were in the later stages of your CX career and had certainly 'paid your dues' figuratively and literally, wouldn't you expect to be given priority for routes, leaves, etc?
Why does the union and the bulk of its members ignore these issues? Likely because that's not where the bulk of this years membership dues are coming from and shortsightedness and selfishness on behalf of its members. The senior guys are in the minority and although they've been paying their dues for alot longer than most, and paying more dollars than most, they get ignored.
Think about it guys. When you're 45 or 50 years old with 15 or 20 years service wouldn't you get your nickers in a knot if you couldn't even get the leave you'd requested? Or got knocked back by someone with 15 years less seniority than you for a temp basing? Wouldn't you like to know that you'll be able to enjoy Christmas with your family?
The 49ers are GONE. They will never be brought back into CX. It's time to stop grieving and get on with things that are realistic and achievable.
Why does the union and the bulk of its members ignore these issues? Likely because that's not where the bulk of this years membership dues are coming from and shortsightedness and selfishness on behalf of its members. The senior guys are in the minority and although they've been paying their dues for alot longer than most, and paying more dollars than most, they get ignored.
Think about it guys. When you're 45 or 50 years old with 15 or 20 years service wouldn't you get your nickers in a knot if you couldn't even get the leave you'd requested? Or got knocked back by someone with 15 years less seniority than you for a temp basing? Wouldn't you like to know that you'll be able to enjoy Christmas with your family?
The 49ers are GONE. They will never be brought back into CX. It's time to stop grieving and get on with things that are realistic and achievable.
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To themoon. Cripey, to think I have been accused of insensitive posts. Lets get priorities in order, food, home and security for your family. That is the concern of all those young aviators struggling with the decision to join Cathay or not. And the 49ers et al who don't have a real pay cheque arriving each month. Do you think, that those that have to, enjoy living on the generosity of their brothers. And that they are not well aware that their predicament is costing the union membership a 4 per cent pay cut. Home for Xmas! Priorities for route selection! Lets get the big issues we are facing now resolved without too much more pain and then we can work on the niff naff.
TTM,
Senior so you shouldn't have to show up for work when you don't want to?
Geez, at least you get to WORK!!
If you're so senior, you should have GROWN UP by now!!
Senior so you shouldn't have to show up for work when you don't want to?
Geez, at least you get to WORK!!
If you're so senior, you should have GROWN UP by now!!
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Daxon:
Please enlighten me. What exactly is it that you know about this topic that I apparently don't?
Shortley:
Sometimes realism is considered insensitive. But let's stop all this bleeding heart BS and hanging onto an 'issue' that will not result in anything positive, and get on with it.
Speaking of 'getting on with it', what are the 49ers doing about that? Why after almost a year are they still living on the generosity of their brothers (and sisters, I might add). If they are more concerned about food, home and security for their families than beating a dead horse and living in 'infamy', why are they hanging around HK and not looking for a real vs imagined job? Perhaps it's time to get off their freakin' huge pity pot and start taking care of their families???
Some operators actually just want to go to work, do a professional job, and collect our substantial paycheques at the end of the month. Some operators are tired of having their security jeopardized by the plight of the 49ers!
You want to get this 'big issue' resolved. There are many people who believe this issue IS resolved. It will not be changed. Get on with it.
Wizofoz:
That's the first time I've ever heard a union member refer to a seniority based roster as not showing up for work when I don't want to! Yes, I get to work because I don't call in sick when I'm not sick. I don't delay flights to put the screws to the company that pays my salary.
Hit a nerve, did I?
raitfaiter:
Wind up ... maybe. I would just like to focus on something other than the only issue that has dominated this union for such a long time. I'd like people to stop fixating on an issue that is unachievable and move to something that might actually benefit some of the people working in this outfit. Enough is enough.
Please enlighten me. What exactly is it that you know about this topic that I apparently don't?
Shortley:
Sometimes realism is considered insensitive. But let's stop all this bleeding heart BS and hanging onto an 'issue' that will not result in anything positive, and get on with it.
Speaking of 'getting on with it', what are the 49ers doing about that? Why after almost a year are they still living on the generosity of their brothers (and sisters, I might add). If they are more concerned about food, home and security for their families than beating a dead horse and living in 'infamy', why are they hanging around HK and not looking for a real vs imagined job? Perhaps it's time to get off their freakin' huge pity pot and start taking care of their families???
Some operators actually just want to go to work, do a professional job, and collect our substantial paycheques at the end of the month. Some operators are tired of having their security jeopardized by the plight of the 49ers!
You want to get this 'big issue' resolved. There are many people who believe this issue IS resolved. It will not be changed. Get on with it.
Wizofoz:
That's the first time I've ever heard a union member refer to a seniority based roster as not showing up for work when I don't want to! Yes, I get to work because I don't call in sick when I'm not sick. I don't delay flights to put the screws to the company that pays my salary.
Hit a nerve, did I?
raitfaiter:
Wind up ... maybe. I would just like to focus on something other than the only issue that has dominated this union for such a long time. I'd like people to stop fixating on an issue that is unachievable and move to something that might actually benefit some of the people working in this outfit. Enough is enough.
ToTheMoon
Firstly I have been with CPA since the eighties. The most senior guy on the roster today, joined in 1974.
The HKAOA is trying to do a lot of things for a lot of people. What exactly do you think they have been trying to achieve for the last eight or nine years? Are you familiar with R, R & B? "Priority for routes, leaves, etc" you ask. Perhaps you are unaware that we do not have a bid system as such. Leave is done purely on a points system. No seniority involved.
"Why does the union and the bulk of its members ignore these issues?" They don’t and never have. This is why we are in this position.
Firstly knickers is spelled with a K. Getting the leave you request is hardly ever guaranteed and often taken away by the company. Christmas with the family you ask. Ha! You haven’t been around long have you.
The 49ers are patently not gone. How do you know they will never be brought back into CX? As someone else asked, what do you think is realistic and achievable and I ask again, what do you think we in the AOA have been trying to achieve for the last few years?
For further enlightenment please talk to a lot more people to get fully abreast of the situation.
Perhaps I’ve got it all wrong and you’ve been around for ages and know better.
How long have you been involved with CPA and the ongoing problems?
Thank you.
Firstly I have been with CPA since the eighties. The most senior guy on the roster today, joined in 1974.
The HKAOA is trying to do a lot of things for a lot of people. What exactly do you think they have been trying to achieve for the last eight or nine years? Are you familiar with R, R & B? "Priority for routes, leaves, etc" you ask. Perhaps you are unaware that we do not have a bid system as such. Leave is done purely on a points system. No seniority involved.
"Why does the union and the bulk of its members ignore these issues?" They don’t and never have. This is why we are in this position.
Firstly knickers is spelled with a K. Getting the leave you request is hardly ever guaranteed and often taken away by the company. Christmas with the family you ask. Ha! You haven’t been around long have you.
The 49ers are patently not gone. How do you know they will never be brought back into CX? As someone else asked, what do you think is realistic and achievable and I ask again, what do you think we in the AOA have been trying to achieve for the last few years?
For further enlightenment please talk to a lot more people to get fully abreast of the situation.
Perhaps I’ve got it all wrong and you’ve been around for ages and know better.
How long have you been involved with CPA and the ongoing problems?
Thank you.
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To The Moon. I described your initial post as being insensitive. I am sorry in that as I gave you far too much latitude. Opionated, puerile, self-interested spring easier to mind on reading your second. You assume the big issue is the 49ers, well no it's not, those poor people are the fallout of the bigger issue. I have in other posts been very critical of the part time union management and am still of that opinion. And indeed I can easily accept reality without losing my sensitivity. For you Sir, might I suggest once you lose a little self focus you will become a much nicer person, gosh, you might even learn to like yourself.
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TTM,
I swear I could hear J.S. talking. I might have the wrong guy here, but you were saying the exact same things way back in August of last year. Get used to the 49ers buddy, because they’ll be around “for as long as it takes” You left the Union over the 5% and you stated that all you wanted was to quietly complete two or three more years before you had enough coins to pack up and leave. Your immigrant father would be real proud of you.
I swear I could hear J.S. talking. I might have the wrong guy here, but you were saying the exact same things way back in August of last year. Get used to the 49ers buddy, because they’ll be around “for as long as it takes” You left the Union over the 5% and you stated that all you wanted was to quietly complete two or three more years before you had enough coins to pack up and leave. Your immigrant father would be real proud of you.
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Hoffa,
Yes, you've got the wrong guy but at least there are two of us with a similar view. Actually, there are alot more as you can see from the number of people who have left the union since last summer. I left the union because a) I don't agree with their stand on the 49'ers and b) I didn't appreciate their strong arm tactics ie. phone calls to my home to threaten me with being blacklisted and publishing a blacklist.
Yes, you've got the wrong guy but at least there are two of us with a similar view. Actually, there are alot more as you can see from the number of people who have left the union since last summer. I left the union because a) I don't agree with their stand on the 49'ers and b) I didn't appreciate their strong arm tactics ie. phone calls to my home to threaten me with being blacklisted and publishing a blacklist.
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Shortley,
Well you got me ... PUERILE???? I even check my dictionary and I still don't know what that means!
You find my views offensive and that's fine. I find it offensive to have my workplace still affected by 49 guys who aren't even with us anymore! I have operated with some of 'those poor people' and they definitely do not have my pity or my pocketbook. I will only make comment on those I did fly with and they should have seen it coming. They were hardly names pulled out of a hat but were behaving in a way that I could certainly understand how the company would be able to justify a 'loss of confidence'.
From a more personal perspective, I'm glad that I'm not having my life disrupted from some of these fellas calling in sick as it suited them. One, in particular, made a point of telling me that he'd be calling in sick for his return trip to HK. He was true to his word and I was delayed 2 hours while we waited for the reserve FO to get to work! And some people think I should be bankrolling this guy? Sorry.
Well you got me ... PUERILE???? I even check my dictionary and I still don't know what that means!
You find my views offensive and that's fine. I find it offensive to have my workplace still affected by 49 guys who aren't even with us anymore! I have operated with some of 'those poor people' and they definitely do not have my pity or my pocketbook. I will only make comment on those I did fly with and they should have seen it coming. They were hardly names pulled out of a hat but were behaving in a way that I could certainly understand how the company would be able to justify a 'loss of confidence'.
From a more personal perspective, I'm glad that I'm not having my life disrupted from some of these fellas calling in sick as it suited them. One, in particular, made a point of telling me that he'd be calling in sick for his return trip to HK. He was true to his word and I was delayed 2 hours while we waited for the reserve FO to get to work! And some people think I should be bankrolling this guy? Sorry.
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Daxon,
I've been with CPA since the early eighties, so yes, I've been around awhile and have experienced the 'glory days' as well as the not so glorious days.
My point is that I would rather see the union fighting for something that would actually benefit some people ... me included ... like a bid system rather than focusing on the 49er issue which I believe is not going to change. To date, I have spent very few Christmases with my wife and children. I'd like that to change.
The AOA membership is diverse in age and experience of its members, among other things. It has focused on issues relating to the younger less experience members over the past year. It has tried to get the 49ers reinstated but has been unsuccessful. I'm not prepared to risk my job in the process as I believe the company was able to show 'cause' for dismissal. Their attempt to obtain support from the UN is absolutely laughable. The current AOA leadership has lost credibility and as an organization, it's floundering. It is ineffective. As long as a percentage of its members continue to 'support the cause' the AOA will continue in its
Excuse me ... I'm being beckoned me to the boudoir! Later!
I've been with CPA since the early eighties, so yes, I've been around awhile and have experienced the 'glory days' as well as the not so glorious days.
My point is that I would rather see the union fighting for something that would actually benefit some people ... me included ... like a bid system rather than focusing on the 49er issue which I believe is not going to change. To date, I have spent very few Christmases with my wife and children. I'd like that to change.
The AOA membership is diverse in age and experience of its members, among other things. It has focused on issues relating to the younger less experience members over the past year. It has tried to get the 49ers reinstated but has been unsuccessful. I'm not prepared to risk my job in the process as I believe the company was able to show 'cause' for dismissal. Their attempt to obtain support from the UN is absolutely laughable. The current AOA leadership has lost credibility and as an organization, it's floundering. It is ineffective. As long as a percentage of its members continue to 'support the cause' the AOA will continue in its
Excuse me ... I'm being beckoned me to the boudoir! Later!
ToTheMoon
This thread is titled "What about the senior guys?" and you start off with some simple scenarios.
You later tell us that you’ve been with CPA since the early eighties. Well. Let’s have a quick peruse of the Seniority List as published by the company on 19.03.02 and in particular, the years form 1980 until 1984. I think even you might agree, that this is a generous assumption for "early eighties".
If you had joined in 1980, at best you would have 3 more years.
If you had joined in 1981, you would be telling porkies.
If you had joined in 1982, you would be telling porkies.
If you had joined in 1983, at best you would have 4 more years.
If you had joined in 1984, at best you would have 10 more years.
In short your Seniority number could be as high as about 25 or as low as about 65. This out of a total of about 510 captains.
Does this not put you rather squarely in the "Senior Guys" bracket? Yet you seem to have (IMhumbleO) a rather poor grasp of some of the core issues and then you tell us:
"I left the union because a) I don't agree with their stand on the 49'ers and b) I didn't appreciate their strong arm tactics ie. phone calls to my home to threaten me with being blacklisted and publishing a blacklist."
Now please let us know why on earth the union would be calling a "Senior Guy" at home to threaten him with blacklisting?
As I said before, maybe I’ve got it all wrong but I can’t quite see it for the moment. Perhaps you can explain it all.
For the moment, I think you may just be telling the odd porkie!
Thank you.
This thread is titled "What about the senior guys?" and you start off with some simple scenarios.
You later tell us that you’ve been with CPA since the early eighties. Well. Let’s have a quick peruse of the Seniority List as published by the company on 19.03.02 and in particular, the years form 1980 until 1984. I think even you might agree, that this is a generous assumption for "early eighties".
If you had joined in 1980, at best you would have 3 more years.
If you had joined in 1981, you would be telling porkies.
If you had joined in 1982, you would be telling porkies.
If you had joined in 1983, at best you would have 4 more years.
If you had joined in 1984, at best you would have 10 more years.
In short your Seniority number could be as high as about 25 or as low as about 65. This out of a total of about 510 captains.
Does this not put you rather squarely in the "Senior Guys" bracket? Yet you seem to have (IMhumbleO) a rather poor grasp of some of the core issues and then you tell us:
"I left the union because a) I don't agree with their stand on the 49'ers and b) I didn't appreciate their strong arm tactics ie. phone calls to my home to threaten me with being blacklisted and publishing a blacklist."
Now please let us know why on earth the union would be calling a "Senior Guy" at home to threaten him with blacklisting?
As I said before, maybe I’ve got it all wrong but I can’t quite see it for the moment. Perhaps you can explain it all.
For the moment, I think you may just be telling the odd porkie!
Thank you.
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Please share with us, To The Moon, how you know the company can show cause for firing 49 pilots in one day. If you are as senior as you say you are then you must have some close buddies in management.
I think that if you stand back and think about what the AOA is trying to accomplish you will realise that for you to get Christmas home with your family you would need a decent rostering deal. I seem to recall that being the first item on the agenda. RR&B, sound familiar.
The company was the one who created the 49ers and the resultant "issue". Do you honestly think that a union, one you don't belong to anymore, can go on and negotiate on your behalf when 50+ of it's members have been victims of industrial action of the worst possible kind.
If you want a decent roster, seems to be your only concern, then get back in the union. Find out what is going on and participate in the process of improving your lot as well as everyone else's.
Bleating on a rumours forum will accomplish nothing, except maybe help you feel better.
I think that if you stand back and think about what the AOA is trying to accomplish you will realise that for you to get Christmas home with your family you would need a decent rostering deal. I seem to recall that being the first item on the agenda. RR&B, sound familiar.
The company was the one who created the 49ers and the resultant "issue". Do you honestly think that a union, one you don't belong to anymore, can go on and negotiate on your behalf when 50+ of it's members have been victims of industrial action of the worst possible kind.
If you want a decent roster, seems to be your only concern, then get back in the union. Find out what is going on and participate in the process of improving your lot as well as everyone else's.
Bleating on a rumours forum will accomplish nothing, except maybe help you feel better.
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The plight of the 49ers, very sad. The action by the company to fire them, very sad. But as always there are two sides to every story, the 'disunion' as I like to call it, brought the action upon themselves and their members. Eight frigging years, that's how long the disunion has been taking niggardly, miserly and petty action against the company. At the same time taking home salaries in the top two or three in the industry in the world. No wonder they don't want a real ban which would include upgrades etc, much easier and more comfortable to expect the kids to carry the can. Just like introduction of B scales, just like introduction of ASL. The disunion - what a joke.
